Electricity saving "game"

JonathanRyan

JonathanRyan

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Anybody playing? This is the scheme funded (I think) by the grid to reduce consumption around peak hours. It's easy to play although the rules behind the scenes are a bit complicated: sign up for a session and if the computer determines that you use less power than "usual" in the session time you get paid something around £2.25 per kWh.

Octopus scheme is here https://octopus.energy/blog/saving-sessions-faqs/ but your supplier may have an alternative.

I had my first attempt last night although since my average usage during daylight is somewhere near 0, I bet I don't get any money back.

Are you playing? What did you win?
 
I've made 71p during first session last week, saved 55% of my usual usage. It was easily done by moving electrical cooking outside of 5-6pm session.
Not sure about last night's session, 5:30-6:30 is usually our dinner time, so usage wouldn't really change much. We'll see.

Same as COVID, it's essentially an exercise in flattening or spreading out the demand curve. The less peak usage, the cheaper electricity.

Overnight current cheapest available tariff is 10p/kWh.
During peak time, National grid is willing to pay £3/kWh for people to reduce load. (I think Octopus keeps 75p/kWh)
This speaks volume about the vastly variable pricing electricity goes through each day. Trying to match supply to demand is very expensive. Paying a fixed rate no longer makes sense if we want cheaper energy.
 
All electricity is measured and priced per half hour. Industrial users have always had half-hourly consumption meters and tariffs, and some commercial users. Smart meters were intended to allow residential and other commercial users to be able to take advantage of half hourly pricing but instead have been implemented just to facilitate increased profitability for suppliers by capturing more detailed usage patterns instead of using the standardised EAC/AA pattern provided by the distributors. Those few suppliers now offering these gimmicky cashback schemes are finally realising that they can use the facility to manipulate user behaviour to the advantage of the grid and the greater good.
 
I'm wondering how long it will be until somebody comes up with a simple battery system - so you can plug in say a 1kw battery to charge at cheap and use during peak. I know batteries exist (I have some) but the installation cost means they are a commitment.

If they carry on with these sessions, I can see an Anker pack becoming affordable https://www.anker.com/uk/products/a1770?variant=42401764343972&ref=collectionBuy Payback is currently 542 sessions :(
 
Like the idea of a plug-in battery that moves around usages. But not sure about cost because connecting to the grid is expensive and it's more involved than simply plugging something into mains.
I know people who have a large toggle switch and use their Kia vehicle-2-load capability to power their house, off grid.

ecoleman said:
All they are going to do is move the peak hours.
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Name of the game is flatten the curve. The higher peak power usage, the more expensive it is. End goal is to move usage to period where they may be excess power.

lindsay said:
Smart meters were intended to allow residential and other commercial users to be able to take advantage of half hourly pricing
Click to expand...
This has already happened with Octopus Agile, the price is set half-hourly and only 4-7pm gets really expensive, other times are typically below standard variable rate.

Also, it's not the suppliers who are offering cashback scheme. The National Grid are offering £3/kWh for this, Octopus takes a cut for implementing their algorithms/UI and awarding highest reductions.

mj4456 said:
Isn’t it just a method of persuading people to install smartmeters?
Click to expand...
It's one of many benefit of smart meter and completely optional. Totally unrelated to smart meter installation.
 
wyx087 said:
Name of the game is flatten the curve. The higher peak power usage, the more expensive it is. End goal is to move usage to period where they may be excess power.
Click to expand...

Oh dear, where have we heard that before?
Encouraging people to move their power usage to another time is just moving the peak to a period where there may have been excess power but no longer does
 
I guess it would be feasible to install a Tesla battery system like has been mentioned above with a Kia, to accumulate during off-peak and supplement or replace peak consumption power source. There are now a few battery farms around like solar farms, to provide mitigation for peak consumption failures.
 
Smart meters installed a week ago. They stated that our Electricity meter was now too old and had to be replaced. It seems that I could still have insisted on a conventional meter but eventually continuing to refuse might result in problems in changing supplier, so I submitted. The monitor has now been turned to face the wall as my wife did not wish to see it. It was initially set to report daily usage against a budget. However, the budget had been set to about 1/3 of our normal usage so we were over budget by 1100. I have since reprogrammed to a sensible budget and to display monthly.

Dave
 
Dave Canon said:
Smart meters installed a week ago. They stated that our Electricity meter was now too old and had to be replaced. It seems that I could still have insisted on a conventional meter but eventually continuing to refuse might result in problems in changing supplier, so I submitted. The monitor has now been turned to face the wall as my wife did not wish to see it. It was initially set to report daily usage against a budget. However, the budget had been set to about 1/3 of our normal usage so we were over budget by 1100. I have since reprogrammed to a sensible budget and to display monthly.

Dave
Click to expand...
You know you can unplug the monitor and never use it, right?

Smart meter didn't require an IHD to work, it just enables one. I think if more people understood this there might be less resistance to smart meters.
 
ecoleman said:
A bit pointless IMO. All they are going to do is move the peak hours.
Click to expand...
Well yes. They dynamically move them until there are no peaks. Would save a huge amount of money and pollution.

lindsay said:
I guess it would be feasible to install a Tesla battery system like has been mentioned above with a Kia, to accumulate during off-peak and supplement or replace peak consumption power source. There are now a few battery farms around like solar farms, to provide mitigation for peak consumption failures.
Click to expand...
Yes, the sooner we get more vehicle to house / grid systems the better. It's slightly frustrating to have a 75kw battery sitting in the garage and still draw from the mains :)
 
IIRC the "rush to gas" back when it was sometime ago was to initially meet peak demand spikes because CCGT power stations could be more quickly brought on stream than 'turning' up the coal fired stations.

I have just checked Gridwatch and CCGT supply is at 41% i.e. this source has now become our base load, at a time when gas prices are at such a high!

I don't know what the answer is in respect of better balancing our supply infrastructure but we do need to reduce our dependency on gas!
 
Tee-hee. So I cut down my usage in the saving session by a massive 84%!!!!!!

Sadly, as I predicted, I use do little electricity that 84% of an hour's issue at ,£2.25 / kWh cones to.......5p :DScreenshot_20221129-122726.png
 
Another one at 17:30-18:30 today.

The grid is hoping for a total of 500,000 kW of spare capacity in order to reduce expensive fossil fuel use and ensure energy security. Energy wholesale rate went up to as high as "£1,200/MWh", that's £1.20 per kWh yesterday similar time.
www.current-news.co.uk

Third Demand Flexibility Service test unveiled amid tight capacity

National Grid ESO is to run the third test of its Demand Flexibility Service tomorrow (30 November) from 17:30-18:30.
www.current-news.co.uk www.current-news.co.uk

The price cap/guarantee is based on averages. If people don't shift their load and flatten the demand curve, we all have to pay more per kWh because these extremes are pulling up the averages. It's all just really simple maths and supply & demand.
 
Our first save it session is now!
It’ll be interesting to see what we can achieve ;)
 
Did the first one earned about 5p. Total waste of effort. Not bothering again.
 
If you're attached to Loop (loopSPAM) they're having a saving hour tomorrow. Supplier agnostic. Just need a working smart meter.

Even if we saved 100% that'd be of the order of ⅓kWh - however if we all saved a risibly small amount they can turn off a gas station.
 
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robj20 said:
Did the first one earned about 5p. Total waste of effort. Not bothering again.
Click to expand...
Ha ha, but it’s the combination of everyone doing it and saving x million 5 pence and x million kWhrs (y)
 
Norkie said:
Ha ha, but it’s the combination of everyone doing it and saving x million 5 pence and x million kWhrs (y)
Click to expand...
I use less than a 1kwh during most of these times anyway, so to save we literally have to sit in the dark. Sorry but it's not worth it. Not like I'm able to do much. Anything more of have to unplug the fridge and freezer.
 
I just did small things such as using a slightly dimmer lighting when eating instead of blinding day-light level my wife prefers. Turned down all smart lighting and turned off vampire devices (computer, unnecessary wifi mesh node in the study, TV system, smart speakers, etc). For the fridge freezer, I pressed "super freeze" an hour before and during the hour I pressed "eco mode" to prevent it firing up. Also heated the house up slightly and made sure boiler was off for that hour.

We used no more than 200w during that hour, we usually use 300-400w with spikes if cooking. So I'm hoping for another 50-60% reduction and another 70p. I think we are getting the hang of it.


edit:

Another one tomorrow on Octopus website for opt-in now. Tomorrow for 1 hour between 17:00 - 18:00 GMT
 
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wyx087 said:
I just did small things such as using a slightly dimmer lighting when eating instead of blinding day-light level my wife prefers. Turned down all smart lighting and turned off vampire devices (computer, unnecessary wifi mesh node in the study, TV system, smart speakers, etc). For the fridge freezer, I pressed "super freeze" an hour before and during the hour I pressed "eco mode" to prevent it firing up. Also heated the house up slightly and made sure boiler was off for that hour.

We used no more than 200w during that hour, we usually use 300-400w with spikes if cooking. So I'm hoping for another 50-60% reduction and another 70p. I think we are getting the hang of it.


edit:

Another one tomorrow on Octopus website for opt-in now. Tomorrow for 1 hour between 17:00 - 18:00 GMT
Click to expand...


So, for an hour or two before the challenge hour, you actually used MORE than normal?
 
Nod said:
So, for an hour or two before the challenge hour, you actually used MORE than normal?
Click to expand...
Why not? It's about load shifting.

I don't really use no electricity. Just none during the day.
 
Nod said:
So, for an hour or two before the challenge hour, you actually used MORE than normal?
Click to expand...
This is the idea.
Participating households shift the load away from peak, flatten out the demand curve spike so that it's easier to manage for national grid and less expensive to fulfil those shifted demands.

As I've said many times, using expensive variable supply to meet demand is no longer sustainable. Time-of-use tariff for demand shifting incentives and other demand-side management is one of first steps to gain cheap and plentiful renewable electricity. The more people able to shift demand to cheaper times, the cheaper electricity for everyone.
 
We’re always on energy saving mode, even go pee in the dark during the night!:ROFLMAO:
 
ecoleman said:
Cheap for the energy companies, not for us!

Just the the b*****ks about cheaper renewable energy that nobody has ever seen
Click to expand...

Now children, please point to the cheapest type of electricity generation technology:

1669901432292.png

www.gov.uk

BEIS Electricity Generation Costs (2020)

This report presents levelised cost estimates for electricity generation technologies, detailing methodology, data and assumptions.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk


Problem is wind and sun doesn't work 100% of the time, this is why demand need to be adjustable to meet those variable cheap renewable supply. Flexible demand means more cheap renweables can be installed, which means less overall unit cost to generate the supply.

Cheap for energy company and cheap for us, because electricity pricing is based on the most expensive grid supply at the time. So during periods that doesn't need expensive fossil fuel plants (CCGT in the table above), unit price will drop down to very cheap and even paying people to use more. End of the day, those who can shift their demand gets ultra-cheap electricity, those who cannot will get cheaper average price. Win-win.

National Grid explanation why electricity can be free or have negative pricing:
www.nationalgrideso.com

The weekend of free electricity? | National Energy System Operator

Over the weekend, some consumers found themselves being paid to use electricity generated from renewable sources. Why?
www.nationalgrideso.com www.nationalgrideso.com
 
wyx087 said:
Now children, please point to the cheapest type of electricity generation technology:

View attachment 374945

www.gov.uk

BEIS Electricity Generation Costs (2020)

This report presents levelised cost estimates for electricity generation technologies, detailing methodology, data and assumptions.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk


Problem is wind and sun doesn't work 100% of the time, this is why demand need to be adjustable to meet those variable cheap renewable supply. Flexible demand means more cheap renweables can be installed, which means less overall unit cost to generate the supply.

Cheap for energy company and cheap for us, because electricity pricing is based on the most expensive grid supply at the time. So during periods that doesn't need expensive fossil fuel plants (CCGT in the table above), unit price will drop down to very cheap and even paying people to use more. End of the day, those who can shift their demand gets ultra-cheap electricity, those who cannot will get cheaper average price. Win-win.

National Grid explanation why electricity can be free or have negative pricing:
www.nationalgrideso.com

The weekend of free electricity? | National Energy System Operator

Over the weekend, some consumers found themselves being paid to use electricity generated from renewable sources. Why?
www.nationalgrideso.com www.nationalgrideso.com
Click to expand...

I couldn't care less for your tables and graphs. The fact is nobody has benefited from "cheaper" renewable energy, except the energy companies.

The price we pay for electricity is based on the price of Gas, regardless of where it comes from.
 
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ecoleman said:
I couldn't care less for your tables and graphs. The fact is nobody has benefited from "cheaper" renewable energy, except the energy companies.

The price we pay for electricity is based on the price of Gas, regardless of where it comes from.
Click to expand...
The fact are laid bare before you, but you've chosen to ignore those figures from government studies and insist on your own misguided believes.

The fact is many individual consumers have benefited from cheap renewable energy. (see the link about free weekend electricity)

Price we pay for electricity is based on price of gas only when gas plants are used. But when there's an excess of cheap renwables...... Again, please refer to the link above to read how cheap electricity happens.
 
My wife suggested that we turn the oven off at the power socket so that the clock doesn’t draw any electricity to show the time!
 

So far you've earned 2256 OctoPoints (or £2.82) over 4 Saving Sessions​

You saved 62% in the last session​


30/11/22 376
01/12/22 640

Need to step up my game! 30/11 one was unacceptable :runaway:



Flexibility is key, UK Power Network is my local (London and surrounding) DNO, and they are looking for 500 MW of flexibility.
Net zero require flexibility, both will in time gives us cheaper electricity.
Flexibility will be in local areas in which electric generation demand is expected to outstrip the capacity of substations and cables.

This is a key part of our wider plans to support the transition to net zero at lowest cost. Our latest business plan excluded more than £400 million of network investment on the basis that we plan to manage many parts of our network more cost-effectively using flexibility. These are real savings which are being passed on directly to bill payers.”
Click to expand...
www.current-news.co.uk

UKPN launches 500MW flexibility tender to help unlock renewable technologies

UK Power Networks (UKPN) has officially launched its largest Flexibility Tender to date, aiming to unlock 500MW of capacity across the network.
www.current-news.co.uk www.current-news.co.uk
 
ecoleman said:
I couldn't care less for your tables and graphs. The fact is nobody has benefited from "cheaper" renewable energy, except the energy companies.

The price we pay for electricity is based on the price of Gas, regardless of where it comes from.
Click to expand...

wyx087 said:
The fact are laid bare before you, but you've chosen to ignore those figures from government studies and insist on your own misguided believes.

The fact is many individual consumers have benefited from cheap renewable energy. (see the link about free weekend electricity)

Price we pay for electricity is based on price of gas only when gas plants are used. But when there's an excess of cheap renwables...... Again, please refer to the link above to read how cheap electricity happens.
Click to expand...

Some people just don't want to know the facts. They would prefer to stick to their prejudices based on ignorance and an unwillingness to
a) understand the problem, and
b) do something about it.

Sorry to be so blunt about this, Elliott.
 
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jerry12953 said:
Some people just don't want to know the facts. They would prefer to stick to their prejudices based on ignorance and an unwillingness to
a) understand the problem, and
b) do something about it.

Sorry to be so blunt about this, Elliott.
Click to expand...
It's okay, I've been called ignorant plenty of times before during covid.

Seems I wasn't so ignorant after all so perhaps it's not me that ignorant.
 
Saving session today 5-7pm.

Coal plants are told to be on stand by. Today's peak time wholesale rate is going to be £2,585.80/MWh. Demand Flexibility Service (DFS, the National Grid's name for saving session) is hoping for highest demand reduction since start of DFS.
www.current-news.co.uk

National Grid ESO warms up coal units and sets long DFS period as cold weather pushes grid

National Grid ESO has called on its coal contingency units to warm, as prices surge to record highs.
www.current-news.co.uk www.current-news.co.uk

Latest TED talk about why UK energy price are so high:
View: https://youtu.be/eucTQXM4ymE
 
Excellent talk, thanks for posting. I'm sure the speaker could have backed all that up with the references as well.

According to the excellent Tom Heap on Countryfile last night fossil fuel companies are subsidised by the Government to the tune of 91% of all their expenditure in opening up new sources of oil and gas. What's that all about, I wonder? The fossil fuel companies have known for decades that their products cause global warming (aka climate breakdown). It is close to criminal what has been going on and still is. And the Government is still going arm in arm with them in their search for more profit. These are crimes against the planet and the sooner they are recognised as such the better.
 
jerry12953 said:
Excellent talk, thanks for posting. I'm sure the speaker could have backed all that up with the references as well.

According to the excellent Tom Heap on Countryfile last night fossil fuel companies are subsidised by the Government to the tune of 91% of all their expenditure in opening up new sources of oil and gas. What's that all about, I wonder? The fossil fuel companies have known for decades that their products cause global warming (aka climate breakdown). It is close to criminal what has been going on and still is. And the Government is still going arm in arm with them in their search for more profit. These are crimes against the planet and the sooner they are recognised as such the better.
Click to expand...
it is a pity that such protest were not louder in the 1970's when it was already recognised that we could not continue to destroy the planet but nothing changed. Even now I would hate to see the countryside covered in Wind farms though we will have to have many but hopefully mainly offshore and undersea turbines. Two years ago I did a short OU course on Nuclear Energy and at that time looked at the power sources in the UK. No coal fired power was on-line that day.

Now consider what a Government has to do. Finding economic alternatives has not been easy. During the Blair government, a detailed report was produced on the future of UK power generation and a key part was investing in modern Nuclear power stations. Another key issue was to avoid any reliance on Russia it was obvious then and even more obvious now. Blair dithered over the recommendations as some objected to Nuclear power for mainly political reasons. In the end the Blair government decided to go ahead just before they lost office. We then had several years of LIb/Con dithering and only relatively recently have a few of the projects been initiated. The problems of trying to rely too much on wind and sun is it is not always available. On the other hand offshore currents/turbines and nuclear power should be more continuous but are more expensive initially.

In the current situation, if you had the responsibility how would you deal with it; remember someone always has to deal with now rather than what might have been. There has been little wind for days but temperature below freezing and today a large part of our generation is from Gas (52%) and even 3% coal but nuclear only 14% and wind a commendable 23%. If this situation was sustained over a longer period or temperatures dropped even lower and you were advised "we need to burn more coal or thousands of people will die", what would you do.

Dave
 
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