Electric-car charging costs soar

badlywornroy

I am not macho
Suspended / Banned
Messages
2,707
Name
Roy
Edit My Images
No
This from todays ‘I’ newspaper.

Electric-car users are paying 42% more to use rapid charge points than 4 months ago.

This bit is the ‘shocker’

” However, it is still slightly cheaper to charge a car using rapid or ultra-rapid public chargers than to fill one up with petrol or diesel “

Slightly cheaper ! Oh goody, so It’s still better to pay £50,000 for a new EV than 25,00 for a petrol/diesel is it ?
 
I think the cost is one thing and possibly justifiable if it helps the environment but I've always thought that electric with the tech we have now could well be a disaster for the planet. Recently I've read articles about lithium lakes and cobalt mines and this may be bias confirmation but the whole thing looks nothing short of scandalous but of course this needs to be compared to the possibly also scandalous oil/petrol/diesel supply chain alternative but at least with this it is done as well as it can be with environmental and health concerns in some counties, like the UK for example whereas the minerals and materials for electric transport may not be produced as ethically from what I've seen on line. Electricity capacity and prices are also a worry as the capacity may just not be there if larger numbers of people switch.

Another concern is renewables generally and the push to through coercion to remove subsidies for fossil fuels in relatively poor countries which is causing absolute carnage.

I do hope I'm wrong to be so pessimistic about electric transport but at the mo I just can not see how it is a viable large scale replacement for internal combustion transport.
 
I think existing EV tech is moribund, Hydrogen fuel cells will be the long term solution for motive power, it's just taking longer to productionise and develop for the mass market.
 
I think the cost is one thing and possibly justifiable if it helps the environment but I've always thought that electric with the tech we have now could well be a disaster for the planet. Recently I've read articles about lithium lakes and cobalt mines and this may be bias confirmation but the whole thing looks nothing short of scandalous but of course this needs to be compared to the possibly also scandalous oil/petrol/diesel supply chain alternative but at least with this it is done as well as it can be with environmental and health concerns in some counties, like the UK for example whereas the minerals and materials for electric transport may not be produced as ethically from what I've seen on line. Electricity capacity and prices are also a worry as the capacity may just not be there if larger numbers of people switch.

Another concern is renewables generally and the push to through coercion to remove subsidies for fossil fuels in relatively poor countries which is causing absolute carnage.

I do hope I'm wrong to be so pessimistic about electric transport but at the mo I just can not see how it is a viable large scale replacement for internal combustion transport.
I have always thought electric as a replacement for fossil fuels was just a stop gap, IMO hydrogen will be the fuel of the future.


 
I have always thought electric as a replacement for fossil fuels was just a stop gap, IMO hydrogen will be the fuel of the future.

Hydrogel or fuel cell might be preferable to battery powered cars as they exist today but electric seems to be the future that's been decided on. For how long, I just don't know but any length of time and any truly global mass take up could in the future be seen as nothing short of madness when looking back.
 
I do wonder whether "Big Oil" has smothered the development of newer technologies?

Fuel cells that work have been around since the inception of manned space travel and I recall making a primitive one in O level science in the late 60's

So the question is, just why isn't fuel cell technology not yet a more mature one than it perhaps should have been:thinking:
 
Unfortunately lots of governments in Europe and North America seem to have bought into the cult of Elon Musk and have lead us all down a technology dead end with battery EVs. Fortunately the tide is starting to turn as people are realising that while EVs will make up part of the transport mix, they cannot be the sole solution. They create more environmental problems than they solve and require the building of an entirely new infrastructure. The future has to be synthetic, carbon neutral liquid fuels that can be used in the hundreds of millions of ICE vehicles that are going to be on the roads for decades to come, and / or hydrogen which can be used in fuel cells or cleanly burnt in a lightly adapted ICE.

If all the money that has been wasted on EV development had instead been spent on hydrogen and synthetic fuels I think we'd be much further along in ditching fossil fuels for transport. As I've said before I hate the thought of an all EV future and will do everything in my power to never own one. There is another way and thankfully governments are starting to wake up to that.
 
I do wonder whether "Big Oil" has smothered the development of newer technologies?

Fuel cells that work have been around since the inception of manned space travel and I recall making a primitive one in O level science in the late 60's

So the question is, just why isn't fuel cell technology not yet a more mature one than it perhaps should have been:thinking:
The problem is producing, storing and transporting the hydrogen, rather than fuel cells themselves.
 
I do wonder whether "Big Oil" has smothered the development of newer technologies?

Fuel cells that work have been around since the inception of manned space travel and I recall making a primitive one in O level science in the late 60's

So the question is, just why isn't fuel cell technology not yet a more mature one than it perhaps should have been:thinking:

Indeed. The world seems to have amnesia, some tech seems to have been forgotten, seemingly needlessly complicated or as likely buried.
 
The problem is producing, storing and transporting the hydrogen, rather than fuel cells themselves.
A good point.....
Indeed. The world seems to have amnesia, some tech seems to have been forgotten, seemingly needlessly complicated or as likely buried.
.....and now with the advent of money pouring into Hydrogen production, storage & distribution, is the fuel cell technology ready for market now or will Hydrogen only be seen as a combustion fuel!
 
However, it is still slightly cheaper to charge a car using rapid or ultra-rapid public chargers than to fill one up with petrol or diesel “

Slightly cheaper ! Oh goody, so It’s still better to pay £50,000 for a new EV than 25,00 for a petrol/diesel is it ?
I was only a matter of time, after all they have to recover the cost of the £0 road fund licence ( call it what you will)

I do wonder whether "Big Oil" has smothered the development of newer technologies?
That was being cited back in the 70's so I guess the answer is still yes.
 
I was only a matter of time, after all they have to recover the cost of the £0 road fund licence ( call it what you will)


That was being cited back in the 70's so I guess the answer is still yes.

Not just the oil companies either. Car manufacturers make a fortune from servicing and service plans, electric cars don't need servicing and rarely even need break pads / discs because of the regenerative braking, so they've all dragged their heels despite Tesla doing a lot of the R&D for them (they open sourced all their battery and motor technology in the hope that mainstream car manufacturers would use them)
 
A good point.....

.....and now with the advent of money pouring into Hydrogen production, storage & distribution, is the fuel cell technology ready for market now or will Hydrogen only be seen as a combustion fuel!
Kind of doesn't matter, even if you burn it in an ICE the only emission is water. Toyota have a couple of hydrogen powered ICE competition cars running already and are aggressively pushing this. The EU currently have a complete ICE ban slated for 2035, but at the request of Germany and Italy, they have been given until 2026 to show that hydrogen and synthetic fuel production can be both scaled up to industrial levels and brought down in price enough that is is a viable alternative to fossil fuels.

For those of us who love cars, driving and motorsport there is still a glimmer of hope that we'll get to keep ICEs, just with clean carbon neutral fuel which is a win-win for everyone.

There's much talk about the UK banning petrol cars in 2030, but this only applies to pure ICE models. As it currently stands, plug-in hybrids would be allowed until 2035 before a complete ICE ban. But, none of this is law yet and I'd imagine there is a lot of lobbying going on behind the scenes to allow ICEs with clean fuel.
 
Last edited:
of course electric is the future its the one source that can be obtained from the planet completely carbon neutral no other fuel can do that.
it will just take the next 20 years to get our generating potential over to max renewables which we should have done years ago.
even today the below shows us over 47% of our electricity is being produced by 100% clean energy.

yes there are issues with lithium and toxic chemicals that need to be resolved but they pale into insignificance compared to the damage to our planet burning oil especially diesel.

As to Hydrogen thats not going to happen because you will need the ability to provide filling stations for it etc and one thing electric owners love in there droves is no more visiting these mucky little forecourts

ttttt.jpg
 
of course electric is the future its the one source that can be obtained from the planet completely carbon neutral no other fuel can do that.

I do hope that you're read about the issues with lithium and cobalt. I've read articles and watched videos on line and how anyone can condone what's happening I just don't know. Compared to the oil and refining processes at least in the UK it's an obsolete scandal. IMO.

I may be a fully on the sceptical side of things but I think that perhaps some others are a little to pro too.

Oh, and at the moment electric transport production is not carbon neutral, it's very far from it. I don't know how anyone can type what you just did with a straight face.
 
Last edited:
I do hope that you're read about the issues with lithium and cobalt. I've read articles and watched videos on line and how anyone can condone what's happening I just don't know. Compared to the oil and refining processes at least in the UK it's an obsolete scandal. IMO.

I may be a fully on the sceptical side of things but I think that perhaps some others are a little to pro too.

Oh, and at the moment electric transport production is not carbon neutral, it's very far from it. I don't know how anyone can type what you just did with a straight face.

maybe its because you cannot read i stated "even today the below shows us over 47% of our electricity is being produced by 100% clean energy" i never said it was 100%
its just the dinosaurs out there that cannot see beyond there german diesels or just don't want to as its inconvenient.

go out into the real world and stand on the corner of a busy junction and inhale the stench and tell me that its all good in the world?
 
Last edited:
of course electric is the future its the one source that can be obtained from the planet completely carbon neutral no other fuel can do that.
it will just take the next 20 years to get our generating potential over to max renewables which we should have done years ago.
even today the below shows us over 47% of our electricity is being produced by 100% clean energy.

yes there are issues with lithium and toxic chemicals that need to be resolved but they pale into insignificance compared to the damage to our planet burning oil especially diesel.

As to Hydrogen thats not going to happen because you will need the ability to provide filling stations for it etc and one thing electric owners love in there droves is no more visiting these mucky little forecourts
It's not the future for me. As said above, I'll never, ever own one. If I have to keep driving successively older ICE cars as my daily then so be it. Surely it would be good to give me the option of doing so without burning fossil fuels. I'm far from alone in this viewpoint. I bet electric owners love doing long drives in winter with the heater off so they get a useable range out of their car. Same in the summer with A/C, it destroys your range.

My in-laws have had electric cars for years and nothing puts me off more. We had a recent family holiday together and they had to drive home on the motorway at 50mph with the trucks just to make sure they had enough charge to get home. Just no. Not for me, and never will be. I'll happily stand on the grubbiest forecourt imaginable if I can refuel my car in 3 minutes rather than 3 hours, keep a car that makes a sound, has a gearbox and doesn't weigh 3 tonnes.
 
Last edited:
I agree electric vehicle isn't the sole solution for all transportation methods. But for personal transport, it is the most efficient and convenient solution for vast majority of the use cases.
- Most efficient: compared to next best zero-emission solution, hydrogen fuel cell, double the energy ends up turning the wheels
- Most convenient: vast majority of cars are parked over 90% of the time, during that time, it can be plugged in

Until we build enough renewables to not care about wasting precious energy that had been produced. Efficiency is king. Anything vastly not as efficient must be only considered as backup solutions.

Yes there are questionable things happening with mining of battery materials. But, has the fossil fuel industry totally free of any issues? The difference here is that almost everything in the battery can be recycled. Whereas fossil fuel is a single-use consumable. Luckily batteries have a very long life, they continue to be used long after an useful life in a car before needing to be sent to recycling.


On infrastructure, national average of 72% have access to off-street parking, thus don't need to be reliant on public infrastructure. Then there is workplace charging or wherever people park for long periods of time.

One has to remember rapid charging is a very rare occurrence for most EV owners. Despite rising energy prices, EV tariff are still available at 7.5p/kWh, which translates to ~2.5p/mile.

On cost of EV's. Looking at a non-electrified car, it's just as expensive. Price for everything has gone up over last year. For example, a Merc GLC base price starts at £45k without any optional extra while a higher spec'd Tesla Model Y is £51k yet offers more interior space.

even if you burn it in an ICE the only emission is water.
Any burning done in our nitrogen rich atmosphere will produce some level of nitrogen oxide. Replacing one combustion fuel with another is just a repeat of diesel circus.

Fuel cell is the only viable use of hydrogen for low energy use (transportation).
 
One curious thing, I know a driving instructor, and his automatic lessons far out weight the manual ones.
( he has 3 auto's and 1 manual)
I can see that, its because people are getting ready for the EV's.

However there is one massive flaw in that argument.
It'll be years before the "new learners" can afford an EV,
and the smaller cars in auto versions are limit, and will become expensive due to supply and demand.

It just seems odd to me that new learners are limiting their choice of vehicles.
 
Last edited:
maybe its because you cannot read i stated "even today the below shows us over 47% of our electricity is being produced by 100% clean energy" i never said it was 100%
its just the dinosaurs out there that cannot see beyond there german diesels or just don't want to as its inconvenient.

OK.

Can you read? Can you look at evidence?

Lets look at batteries. What materials do they need and how are they obtained?

Until you look at the whole thing you're simply deluding yourself.

This is the issue with the move to electric cars. There are simply too many people, like you, wearing blinkers and ignoring the more uncomfortable questions. If you think electric is carbon neutral today you are deluding yourself today.


And a PS.
Go to a village near a lithium lake or see people working in a cobalt mine. Open your eyes, engage your brain and think about the supply chain outside of your comfortable urban environment. Shouldn't you be thinking wider, bigger and longer term?
 
Last edited:
I agree electric vehicle isn't the sole solution for all transportation methods. But for personal transport, it is the most efficient and convenient solution for vast majority of the use cases.
- Most efficient: compared to next best zero-emission solution, hydrogen fuel cell, double the energy ends up turning the wheels
- Most convenient: vast majority of cars are parked over 90% of the time, during that time, it can be plugged in

Until we build enough renewables to not care about wasting precious energy that had been produced. Efficiency is king. Anything vastly not as efficient must be only considered as backup solutions.

Yes there are questionable things happening with mining of battery materials. But, has the fossil fuel industry totally free of any issues? The difference here is that almost everything in the battery can be recycled. Whereas fossil fuel is a single-use consumable. Luckily batteries have a very long life, they continue to be used long after an useful life in a car before needing to be sent to recycling.


On infrastructure, national average of 72% have access to off-street parking, thus don't need to be reliant on public infrastructure. Then there is workplace charging or wherever people park for long periods of time.

One has to remember rapid charging is a very rare occurrence for most EV owners. Despite rising energy prices, EV tariff are still available at 7.5p/kWh, which translates to ~2.5p/mile.

On cost of EV's. Looking at a non-electrified car, it's just as expensive. Price for everything has gone up over last year. For example, a Merc GLC base price starts at £45k without any optional extra while a higher spec'd Tesla Model Y is £51k yet offers more interior space.


Any burning done in our nitrogen rich atmosphere will produce some level of nitrogen oxide. Replacing one combustion fuel with another is just a repeat of diesel circus.

Fuel cell is the only viable use of hydrogen for low energy use (transportation).
I assume the mining, refining and transportation of all the lithium and other metals for the battery, and its disposal when it's worn out is completely energy free then? It's a well known fact that you have to drive tens of thousands of miles in an EV before you start having a positive impact.

And we're going to need these liquid fuels anyway, for air and sea travel. You can't have an international airliner powered by batteries because of their shockingly low energy denisity.

Yes in a car more of the energy ends up turning the wheels in a BEV, but a Tesla long-range battery pack weighs something like 550kg. A fuel cell doesn't. And a hydrogen future would allow those of us who value driving enjoyment to carry on with enjoyable cars without damaging the planet anywhere near as much.

How does endurance racing work with batteries? It doesn't. Or do we swap cars at every pitstop, a la early Formula E? That's not very efficient either.
 
Last edited:
The only advantage that I can see for hydrogen is from the point of view of the good old fossil fuel companies. They can produce hydrogen from natural gas (allegedly green, but in practice not at all). Transporting and storing it is tricky and producing it wastes a significant amount of energy during production and in use in a vehicle. In theory it can be green if it's all produced by electrolysis, but in practice you lose most of the energy you put in before it gets to the wheels of a car.

EVs can (in principle) be green as far as energy consumption while in use is concerned - it just depends on the energy mix on the grid (which is turning greener all the time). The problems with Lithium and cobalt pale into insignificance compared to fossil fuel emissions, including the leaking methane from so called 'green' edit: I meant to say 'blue' hydrogen production (also, cobalt is an obscelescent battery technology and is being phased out).

The bottom line is that no form of transport is truly green, but some are less damaging than others.
 
Last edited:
I think the cost is one thing and possibly justifiable if it helps the environment but I've always thought that electric with the tech we have now could well be a disaster for the planet. Recently I've read articles about lithium lakes and cobalt mines and this may be bias confirmation but the whole thing looks nothing short of scandalous but of course this needs to be compared to the possibly also scandalous oil/petrol/diesel supply chain alternative but at least with this it is done as well as it can be with environmental and health concerns in some counties, like the UK for example whereas the minerals and materials for electric transport may not be produced as ethically from what I've seen on line. Electricity capacity and prices are also a worry as the capacity may just not be there if larger numbers of people switch.

Another concern is renewables generally and the push to through coercion to remove subsidies for fossil fuels in relatively poor countries which is causing absolute carnage.

I do hope I'm wrong to be so pessimistic about electric transport but at the mo I just can not see how it is a viable large scale replacement for internal combustion transport.
Yes completely agree I’m not against electric cars in principle but the environmental damage from the mining is huge
I don’t know what the answer is but at the moment small efficient petrol engines are the best for the environment at the moment as far as I can see
 
One curious thing, I know a driving instructor, and his automatic lessons far out weight the manual ones.
( he has 3 auto's and 1 manual)
I can see that, its because people are getting ready for the EV's.

However there is one massive flaw in that argument.
It'll be years before the "new learners" can afford an EV,
and the smaller cars in auto versions are limit, and will become expensive due to supply and demand.

It just seems odd to me that new learners are limiting their choice of vehicles.

because where i live they are not in EVs mate they are in BMW and AUDI Automatics as that is what there parents drive
 
The only advantage that I can see for hydrogen is from the point of view of the good old fossil fuel companies. They can produce hydrogen from natural gas (allegedly green, but in practice not at all). Transporting and storing it is tricky and producing it wastes a significant amount of energy during production and in use in a vehicle. In theory it can be green if it's all produced by electrolysis, but in practice you lose most of the energy you put in before it gets to the wheels of a car.

EVs can (in principle) be green as far as energy consumption while in use is concerned - it just depends on the energy mix on the grid (which is turning greener all the time). The problems with Lithium and cobalt pale into insignificance compared to fossil fuel emissions, including the leaking methane from so called 'green' hydrogen production (also, cobalt is an obscelescent battery technology and is being phased out).

The bottom line is that no form of transport is truly green, but some are less damaging than others.

yes absolutely spot on as i said
the only fuel source that has a chance is electric , its the greenest out of them all
 
because where i live they are not in EVs mate they are in BMW and AUDI Automatics as that is what there parents drive
Not everyone is as affluent as you, most new drivers here are in the likes of Corsa's
 
Yes completely agree I’m not against electric cars in principle but the environmental damage from the mining is huge
I don’t know what the answer is but at the moment small efficient petrol engines are the best for the environment at the moment as far as I can see

you are certainly right in that, that is my current choice a very small 1.2l petrol, i see in the short term small petrol and balanced with a short distance hybrid battery as being the answer
as most peoples journerys are under 30miles a day
 
Not everyone is as affluent as you, most new drivers here are in the likes of Corsa's

no me mate i am certainly not affluent i drive a 2016 citroen c3 1.2 petrol but most of my town drives range rover, bmw and audi.
 
yes absolutely spot on as i said
the only fuel source that has a chance is electric , its the greenest out of them all
I'll just leave this here. Anyone who thinks BEVs are green in any way is deluded. This is one of my main problems with them. They don't solve the underlying environmental issues and create new ones. It's not progress.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-copper-mining-atacama-desert

It says a lot that governments are having to ban ICE vehicles. Nobody had to ban horses when the car was invented, as it was clearly better. BEVs are worse in almost every way, hence the requirement for a ban to force people to buy them.
 
no me mate i am certainly not affluent i drive a 2016 citroen c3 1.2 petrol
No different to here then, if I drove a RR Merc and the like, and my kid passed their test, I wouldn't let them anywhere near it.
 
As I’ve said before though I probably shouldn’t comment on these threads as I ride a old Yamaha two stroke bike
But it’s 38 years old still running and all parts needed to keep it going are still available
May be forced in the end to drive an electric car but no way I’m getting an electric motorbike, a bike has to have an engine
 
The problem is not the kind of vehicle. It is the need for those vehicles.

Private Transport creates these kind of dilemmas. Not going to be resolved by changing the engines. Big Oil and motor manufacturers have known this for years, as have government. But money has to be made, and it is far easier to talk about a ‘War on the motorist’ than it is to actually conduct policies that move the country away from Private Transport.
 
I'll just leave this here. Anyone who thinks BEVs are green in any way is deluded. This is one of my main problems with them. They don't solve the underlying environmental issues and create new ones. It's not progress.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-copper-mining-atacama-desert

It says a lot that governments are having to ban ICE vehicles. Nobody had to ban horses when the car was invented, as it was clearly better. BEVs are worse in almost every way, hence the requirement for a ban to force people to buy them.
Just read that article thanks for sharing it shows the damage being done
 
of course electric is the future its the one source that can be obtained from the planet completely carbon neutral no other fuel can do that.
it will just take the next 20 years to get our generating potential over to max renewables which we should have done years ago.
even today the below shows us over 47% of our electricity is being produced by 100% clean energy.

yes there are issues with lithium and toxic chemicals that need to be resolved but they pale into insignificance compared to the damage to our planet burning oil especially diesel.

As to Hydrogen thats not going to happen because you will need the ability to provide filling stations for it etc and one thing electric owners love in there droves is no more visiting these mucky little forecourts

View attachment 368067

What about the large number of people that do not have access to off street parking or even a designated parking spot, one in six rural homes do not have access to off-street parking, while in major cities and town centres this figure rises to 60%, What about road haulage at the moment there are very few electric HGV's and the few there are have a very limited range. Now while I'm sure that there will be advances in the technology of electric vehicles there are many potential problems with the fast charging of lithium batteries.
 
What about the large number of people that do not have access to off street parking or even a designated parking spot, one in six rural homes do not have access to off-street parking, while in major cities and town centres this figure rises to 60%, What about road haulage at the moment there are very few electric HGV's and the few there are have a very limited range. Now while I'm sure that there will be advances in the technology of electric vehicles there are many potential problems with the fast charging of lithium batteries.

the word is FUTURE not NOW
all the above you have stated need work but they will happen
 
I was only a matter of time, after all they have to recover the cost of the £0 road fund licence ( call it what you will)
British goverments, run by people with little understanding o economics, less understanding of science and no understanding of engineering, have never been able to manage these changes. Being (on the whole) egotists, they take the word of those who flatter them the most. This is not a path to good decisions. :(
 
The problem is not the kind of vehicle. It is the need for those vehicles.

Private Transport creates these kind of dilemmas. Not going to be resolved by changing the engines. Big Oil and motor manufacturers have known this for years, as have government. But money has to be made, and it is far easier to talk about a ‘War on the motorist’ than it is to actually conduct policies that move the country away from Private Transport.
Not that old chestnut.
Firstly, there would have to be a vast improvement in public transport and not just in large towns and cities but rural areas as well and I don't see that happening in my or even my Grandchildren's lifetime.
I currently have to attend the local? hospital regularly if I had no transport I would either have to take 3 buses or 2 buses and a train along with a little walking which for some may be a problem, with each journey taking around 2 hours each way, a taxi that would cost me around £50-£60 or patient transport that depending on the routing could be up to 3 hours each way there's a long way to go before many me included will be giving up our private transport.
 
The problem is not the kind of vehicle. It is the need for those vehicles.

Private Transport creates these kind of dilemmas. Not going to be resolved by changing the engines. Big Oil and motor manufacturers have known this for years, as have government. But money has to be made, and it is far easier to talk about a ‘War on the motorist’ than it is to actually conduct policies that move the country away from Private Transport.
Humans with the means have always had private transport. Whether it be a car, motorcycle, horse, camel or donkey, people who can afford private transport have it. There is no way I, or 99% of people, would ever give up the ability to go wherever I want, whenever I want.
 
Back
Top