Ebay Studio Strobe Kits

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Josh094

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Joshua
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Hello!

This is my first post on this forum; I came here as i needed some advice.

Firstly i'd like to apologise in advance as I can see that this subject has been done to death in the past but even after looking over previous threads I couldn't find an answer that quite hit my query on the head.

I'd like to try my hand at some studio portrait photography ahead of me starting art college in September. I first entered the world of photography in 2008 and have since worked my way through two bridge cameras, learning the ropes and various photography theories before finally getting my first dslr at the end of 2011 and since then completed my photography A - levels (i'm waiting on the results of my A2 exams at the moment).

I've been doing photography for a few years now but i've never had the opportunity to work with off camera lighting.

I'm more into fashion style portraits rather than your run-of-the-mill commercial portrait photography. This is to give you an idea of the sort of thing I have in mind for what i'd like to achieve:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/9c2aa4cd3e500c817c3b94dd06554c99/tumblr_mmayjggmLa1qed6gyo1_1280.jpg

Now being an 18-year-old student who has only just finished sixth form I am very much strapped for cash. Ideally i'd like to spend at the very most around £250 - I am well aware of the 'you get what you pay for' mentality but I've decided as It is my first venture into the world of studio photography I don't need anything too special.

To give you an idea, this is what i'm looking at at the moment:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/330856160517?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648

Based on the above photo of Kate Moss I'm guessing i want one, maybe two flashes with soft boxes but please tell me if you think otherwise as I have no experience in this field.

I know nothing of the quality or performance of these ebay kits so feedback from anyone on here who has experience with as well as any recommendations are more than welcome!

To give you an idea of the sort of setup i was planning at the moment (please point me in the right sort of direction if my current plan doesn't seem right!): The above kit (or similar) e.g. Two strobes + softboxes.
A white, black or grey backdrop + stand.
A portable work light from a D.I.Y. store to illuminate the backdrop and eliminate/reduce shadows.

I have found a combination of the above which will cost me about £200 give or take.

You've seen the sort of photographs i'd like to take and a rough price guide line; please feel free to give me advice and pointers. The only other real requirement is for it to be portable (although I suppose most kits would be).

tl;dr

Are ebay kits any good? Can you point me in the right direction based on a tight budget?

Thank you in anticipation! I'm looking forward to hearing from you guys!
 
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Welcome to TP:
You really do have the same question as many others and a few of the same misconceptions.

The general advice re the ebay lighting kits is 'Don't do it'. Here's why:

Their non standard modifier mounts
The power control isn't as good as more expensive units
Recycle times are awful
The colour accuracy is a little wayward

The single most important aspect of studio lighting is changing the quality of the light, you do this with modifiers. One light and 3 modifiers is more useful to a learner than 3 lights and 2 modifiers. The cheap ebay strobes only take their own proprietory modifiers. How will you fit a snoot? Barn doors, beauty dish? - you'll need to go back to the same ebay store and buy their cheap modifiers (they have none).

The most important of these to you as a learner, is 2, not being able to turn down the power low enough becomes very frustrating.

The recycle times on these units are nowhere near the times on the better quality gear. Even speedlights with external battery packs will out perform them.

The colour accuracy issue won't hurt you so much as a learner, but if you ever need to do product shots, it'll bite your bum.

Mixing a worklight to light your background? It's not impossible, but it's adding in a whole level of complication you don't need.

The good news is, that photo of Kate Moss, 2 lights and fairly crude too. You could easily get that quality of light on your first attempt with 2 speedlights.
 
Having just brought my first set of lights for home studio work can I suggest, if money is tight, you look at Speedlites instead of studio lights. When I started looking at lighting I thought only a studio light would do, but once I had priced up a decent set-up, with stands, soft boxes etc I had another think about what I was trying to achieve.

As a beginner with off camera flash I then decided starting with one light and a reflector would be a good idea and build from there. With your limited budget this might be a good option, as you can then add lights as your understanding/budget improves.

The Speedlite way has limitations (less power, less flexibility, slower recycle time) but has some great advantages (you can pick up very decent non Canon/Nikon Speedlites for less than £50 new, very portable, lighter). Certainly an option to consider instead of a cheap eBay studio package.

My one flash set up cost c. £140
Yongnuo III £55
RF-603 trigger £25 for 2 (although you only need 1, maybe £15?)
Konig light stand £10 (A bit flimsy but good enough for my needs)
Easy Soft Box £40
Material for backdrop £10 (from Ikea, only £4 a meter, 1.5 meters wide)

You can go cheaper by changing the soft box for an umbrella, although if you do this remember you will need a mount for the flash/umbrella combination, but you can get the two for less than £20.
 
Basically I echo what Phil has said.

A couple of extra points though...
25 years ago, the quality of lighting in that shot of Kate Moss was acceptable, or at least for grunge style shots.

Grunge, and the heroin chic style, is far less popular now.

Basically, you need to look at the history of fashion photography to make sense of what has happened, because fashion photography is very much style-driven.

Back in the day, Cecil Beaton was the grand master, with his very elaborate, stylised fashion shot. Norman Parkinson was another of the greats, and his work tended to be more creative. But neither of those gentlemen had even the slightest interest in women, so there was absolutely no sexual content (or not when they photographed women anyway):)
Then David Bailey took over, he was the opposite in every way and his shots oozed sex. Also, in his early days, he had pretty much nothing in the way of equipment and had to make do with what he had, which was often just sunlight, a flashgun or a photoflood lamp in a reflector.

Now though, although fashion is a very wide genre, it tends to combine the best of both Beaton and Bailey - a lot of preparation, including very good use of light, plus sex. And, of course, very heavy retouching.

So, my advice is to get a decent quality studio light that you can use to build on (all studio lighting is truly compatible with all other studio lighting so you can build up over time without risk of it becoming obsolete) and hone your skills on what you have available.

Hotshoe flashes are an option, but will be very limited. They will allow to produce shots of someone who looks like Kate Moss did 25 years ago, and more, but they won't do everything. And cheap Ebay lights won't do anything.
 
Garry - Hotshoe flashes aren't that bad. They are very capable, and you can learn a lot from them, although I admit you do not have the same power or flexibility of a studio flash set up. You pay your money you take your choice?
 
Paule23 said:
Garry - Hotshoe flashes aren't that bad. They are very capable, and you can learn a lot from them, although I admit you do not have the same power or flexibility of a studio flash set up. You pay your money you take your choice?
Click to expand...
I agree, they aren't bad at all, in fact for a lot of jobs, they're perfect.

Power limitations, used indoors with high end DSLR cameras that produce decent quality results at high ISO isn't the massive problem it used to be.
The main problems are the lack of a modelling lamp, the fixed reflector (which means that most light modifiers don't work well if at all) and the slow recycling.

The " Ebay specials" as well as having problems with lack of adjustment, inconsistent colour, inconsistent power, also have almost useless modelling lamps and very slow recycling, which is why I suggest hotshoe flashes instead of them
 
Ok, so i've started to look into flash guns.

Yongnuo seems like an extremely good brand given their performance/price.

My main question now is do i need a Master in order to use slave lights or can the place of a master light be taken by a transmitter on my camera's hotshoe?

At the moment i'm looking at the possibility of 3 YN560 IIs as slaves, and the new YN568EX II as a master. However if a transmitter can be used in place of a master it would save me a big chunk of money that i could spend on a backdrop/light stands/umbrellas etc.

I'm basing this on the following videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCIhLqTm8Ik

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohPt2pUMWJk&NR=1&feature=fvwp

@Garry
In fear of sounding too stubborn; i'm not trying to following what is happening in the fashion industry or keep up with any sort of trends. It is purely to do with producing the sort of images I want to produce.

Thanks for the help so far!
 
Hi Josh

That last sentence is probably the key to your decision 'producing the sort of images I want to produce' That (and budget!) will ultimately decide what is the best solution for you, a 2 studio light set up, 3/4 Speedlite set up, something completely different.....

I very nearly went for one of the Lencarta packages sold by Garry's company, they seem to get good reviews generally and from users on this website. Choices, choices, choices. Took me nearly 3 weeks to decide what system I wanted!
 
I understand that the two things i have listed now are very different but my point is that since I haven't tried either yet that difference doesn't really matter to me as both will be completely new experiences.

The comment regarding 'what i want to produce' was more in response to how the style of photograph i showed as an example is out of fashion now - that doesn't matter to me.

What i'm trying to ascertain now is whether with my budget am I better off with entering the world of studio photography with speed lights or budget studio lights?

Obviously if I buy 3/4 speed lights I'm under no compulsion to use all of them every single time I do a shoot. If I were to use two speed lights in the place of two studio lights although the results would be different surely the theory is still there in regards to key lighting/fill lighting etc. I just need a place to start when it comes to experimenting with directional light sources rather than natural light alone.
 
Josh094 said:
I understand that the two things i have listed now are very different but my point is that since I haven't tried either yet that difference doesn't really matter to me as both will be completely new experiences.

The comment regarding 'what i want to produce' was more in response to how the style of photograph i showed as an example is out of fashion now - that doesn't matter to me.

What i'm trying to ascertain now is whether with my budget am I better off with entering the world of studio photography with speed lights or budget studio lights?

Obviously if I buy 3/4 speed lights I'm under no compulsion to use all of them every single time I do a shoot. If I were to use two speed lights in the place of two studio lights although the results would be different surely the theory is still there in regards to key lighting/fill lighting etc. I just need a place to start when it comes to experimenting with directional light sources rather than natural light alone.
Click to expand...

That's easy. If you have access to main power, studio heads win every time.

They have fast recycle (that you will need, especially for fashion) and a modelling light so you can see what's happening to the light. They can also be a lot more powerful, though you probably won't need that. Studio photography is about light - light modifiers and how you use them. Knowledge is key, and as a personal tip for newcomers, less is more - even if you have a dozen lights to choose from, just one will almost always be doing the lion's share of the key lighting.

You will learn more, and more quickly, with studio lights. They're not even that expensive - look at Lencarta Smartflash or Elinchrom D-Lites. Smartflash is a good basic unit and great value, D-Lites have a higher spec and I particularly like the little D-Lite Ones that are amazingly compact, have a significantly faster flash duration than most entry level heads, and neat Skyport Speed radio remote-control/triggers built in. Their 100Ws output is usually sufficient, similar to the most powerful speedlites.

The first video you linked, suggesting four speedlites with shoot-through brollies as a starter kit, is madness IMHO. And why the heck would you need CTO gels :thinking: at all? You will have next to zero lighting control with shoot-throughs; recycle will be slow, frustratingly and embarrassingly slow; you will consume hundreds of batteries or will be constantly recharging them 16 at a time :eek:; if you hammer them, speedlites will either cut out or fry themselves. Speedlites are great and very capable in the right hands and make a good choice away from the mains. They also work well with studio heads in positions where you don't need much power (so they'll recycle fast) and can work around other limitations, plus their size makes them very handy.

If you really want to start with multiple lights, begin by using just one, add a reflector, then a second light and build from there. Two studio heads and one speedlite might be an option, give you an opportunity to try both.

Edit: Quote from this current thread http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=488200 "Recycle time is a little slow for taking lots of baby shots in quick succession, I had to delete a lot of black shots where I took another photo too soon. I don't think this is a Yongnuo issue, rather a Speedlite issue and one of th disadvantages of using Speedlites over Studio lights..."
 
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Josh094 said:
...

@Garry
In fear of sounding too stubborn; i'm not trying to following what is happening in the fashion industry or keep up with any sort of trends. It is purely to do with producing the sort of images I want to produce.

Thanks for the help so far!
Click to expand...

At the risk of falling into Dad mode, it doesn't sound stubborn, it sounds exactly like every teenager who think they know what they want before they understand the options.

The more you learn about lighting, the more you'll look back at that picture and see how naive it is.
 
A few months ago I was tempted by those Ebay kits but two things put me off. Firstly, there were no customer reviews and I didn't like the idea of buying an unknown quantity. Secondly the prices were so low that it seemed too good to be true.

As far as getting into studio lighting was concerned the advice from this forum was to start simple and work upwards. I am currently practising with a single speedlight, mounted off camera, with an umbrella diffuser and I am encouraged by the results so far.

I am learning to walk before I try running.
 
Hi


Lots of sound advice here. I'm still relatively new to photography..... Got my first dslr in 2010. This forum is a great source of advice and inspiration.

I started with one speedlight, handheld reflector and an umbrella, quickly upgraded to two speedlights. Then that soon became 4.

Recently bought a lencarta ultra pro and have gone back to using just one light. Really enjoying it with some good results!

If I had my time again I would have stuck with a couple of speedlights and got the studio head sooner! Dont underestimate the need for modifiers/reflectors/stands!!

S

Most important is using and modifying the light
 
DrGed said:
A few months ago I was tempted by those Ebay kits but two things put me off. Firstly, there were no customer reviews and I didn't like the idea of buying an unknown quantity. Secondly the prices were so low that it seemed too good to be true.
Click to expand...

This is pretty much why i didn't rush in and buy one. I came here in hopes that I would find someone who had first hand experience with them.
 
Phil V said:
At the risk of falling into Dad mode, it doesn't sound stubborn, it sounds exactly like every teenager who think they know what they want before they understand the options.

The more you learn about lighting, the more you'll look back at that picture and see how naive it is.
Click to expand...

I fail to see your logic? It is almost implying that because the lighting in the photograph is simple I should not like it or want to produce images like it...

It feels like a similar logic to telling someone who wants to play rockabilly music that they should play something different because rockabilly is very naive compared to later forms of rock or telling someone they shouldn't want to play rock when they could play classical. Surely what matters is that the person is doing what they like and enjoy? There is nothing stopping them from developing later on if they so wish.
 
Get a cheap speedlight and radio trigger. Add a small collapsible soft box.

Shoot with that for a couple of months. When you have done everything it can do, get another speedlight and a grid and add those.

If you get to the end of what those can do then buy some second hand studio lights. Most people who buy them stop using them before they have even done 1,000 exposures.

Speedlights have 3 main limitations:

1. No modelling light. Well, learn to watch where you are pointing it and see the results. With time and experience you'll be able to figure out what to do with them even with very tight lighting. Plus you'll be leagues ahead of people who buy studio lights and stick 2 softboxes at 45 degrees.

2. Hard to fit modifiers. That's kind of true (though you can get S-fit adapters that hold lots of things). They also have some nice softboxes now. And if that's what you want to use it doesn't matter that you can't use other stuff.

3. Slow recycle. Well, slow down. I shoot a lot of stuff on speedlights (often I'm in the city and can't take a lot of kit with me) and it's very rare for me to get a black frame. Running at 1/4 power with decent rechargeables the recycle is pretty near instant all day.
 
Josh094 said:
I fail to see your logic? It is almost implying that because the lighting in the photograph is simple I should not like it or want to produce images like it...

It feels like a similar logic to telling someone who wants to play rockabilly music that they should play something different because rockabilly is very naive compared to later forms of rock or telling someone they shouldn't want to play rock when they could play classical. Surely what matters is that the person is doing what they like and enjoy? There is nothing stopping them from developing later on if they so wish.
Click to expand...

Whoah!! :)

I thought the point of asking a question was to gain further knowledge. All Garry and I are saying is that when you 'get the bug' you'll want to create more interesting lighting than that shown in that example. Lighting isn't as complex as music in that respect. With a few notable exceptions most photographers will use many different styles of lighting depending on what they wish to convey.

Learning that one lighting pattern isn't like only learning rockabilly, country or rock, it's like learning one song. And no matter how much that one song will entertain you for your first month on the guitar, you'll soon feel the desire to add a solo with influences from other places, then maybe add a sad song, or a happier song, then maybe a singalong.

<dad mode> I'm not trying to be all knowing but I'm happy to bet that you're not still perfecting that one 'look' in 12 months time, will you take the bet?:D

I don't offer this advice because I feel I know it all, I offer this advice because after nearly 30 years I'm still learning and trying new things. So I do find it difficult to believe that you know exactly what it is you'll be lighting in 5 years time. </dad mode>
 
im pondering getting a 560iii , lightstand, radio trigger, light modifiers. i think itll cost about 100quid from uk suppliers
i have a metz 50 already (minolta shoe), but it doesnt have wireless radio mode, or the bunch of buttons on the back that should make manual mode easier. i am really happy with the auto mode stuff ive done with it.
 
Sorry about my attitude at the start of the week. I was getting stressed about my last few A level exams and self doubting about art college etc etc.

What i've done is bought a pair of YongNuo 560 IIs + transmitter/recievers + stands and shoot through umbrellas.

The two speed lights set me back £90 while the other bits and pieces such as the umbrellas only cost between £10-30.

I opted for two speed lights in the end as I found that when used in combination with a grey backdrop you can get both black and white backgrounds as well as any other background colour providing you have the right gels. I just felt that this lighting/backdrop combination appeared the most versatile.
 
I recently bought a single YongNuo 560 II with a pair of wireless triggers. I've been using it with a simple white umbrella to shoot through.

The results are encouraging and I'm enjoying it.
 
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