E - Scooters

[Jelster]

Most rider

It is an utterly ridiculous suggestion. Badly thought out and harmful to public health and the environment.

That may well be, but, how about, if you ride on the road, you need to be insured? I had a £2k repair on a £30k+ car that was just a few days old, because a cyclist hit it while I was stationary. Why do I have to be out of pocket?

 

[cambsno]

That may well be, but, how about, if you ride on the road, you need to be insured? I had a £2k repair on a £30k+ car that was just a few days old, because a cyclist hit it while I was stationary. Why do I have to be out of pocket?

You could say the same about a kid playing football in the street (ok, smashed window is less), a toddler coming off normal scooter or balance bike, a pedestrian walking into it when not paying attention and breaking wing mirror, or even un-insured driver / hit & run.

I came back to my car once and scrape down the side. By the looks of it I would suggest (as tight between cars) a zip on coat or bag probably did it. No CCTV at the time.

I am sure the police have enough to do without checking cyclists for insurance docs.

 

[Jelster]

You could say the same about a kid playing football in the street (ok, smashed window is less), a toddler coming off normal scooter or balance bike, a pedestrian walking into it when not paying attention and breaking wing mirror, or even un-insured driver / hit & run.

I came back to my car once and scrape down the side. By the looks of it I would suggest (as tight between cars) a zip on coat or bag probably did it. No CCTV at the time.

I am sure the police have enough to do without checking cyclists for insurance docs.

My point stands, I'm either £2k down, or an have an insurance black mark due to no fault of my own. I was sitting in the car waiting for a car to pass coming the other way, and the cyclist came out between 2 parked cars straight into the nearside wing of my brand new Mini. The handlebars had dented the wing & scuttle in 2 places. He just said "Oh sorry". When I asked him about who was going to pay for it, he shrugged his shoulders and rode off. He was obviously not in control of the bike, otherwise why would he come through between 2 cars and onto the road at speed?

I paid for it out of my own pocket. I did find out where he lived and I posted him a copy of the invoice, but heard nothing.

 

[Sky]

I paid for it out of my own pocket. I did find out where he lived and I posted him a copy of the invoice, but heard nothing.

What a pig.

Is it worth pursuing through the Small Claims Court (or whatever they call it now)? His riding off is an offence in itself isn't it?

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

I am sure the police have enough to do without checking cyclists for insurance docs.

The old "I don't want this change so I'll do a bit of virtue signalling by claiming the police are already overworked" ploy.

 

[woof woof]

My point stands, I'm either £2k down, or an have an insurance black mark due to no fault of my own. I was sitting in the car waiting for a car to pass coming the other way, and the cyclist came out between 2 parked cars straight into the nearside wing of my brand new Mini. The handlebars had dented the wing & scuttle in 2 places. He just said "Oh sorry". When I asked him about who was going to pay for it, he shrugged his shoulders and rode off. He was obviously not in control of the bike, otherwise why would he come through between 2 cars and onto the road at speed?

I paid for it out of my own pocket. I did find out where he lived and I posted him a copy of the invoice, but heard nothing.

This is a problem that needs fixing but never will be. I see cyclists and scooter riders behaving like idiots all the time but have been lucky so far not to have been hit by one when either in the car or on foot. I suppose it is only a small percentage (or maybe not) but some really do seem to be the most arrogant, ignorant. selfish, uncaring and even aggressive of people. I'd love to see something done about bad behaviour and responsibility for accidents but I can't see anything meaningful being done in my lifetime, if ever. In fact I accept that nothing meaningful will ever be done apart from prosecuting the odd one who kills a pedestrian.

Cops on bikes handing out spot fines should be a nice little earner.

 

[Pound Coin]

That may well be, but, how about, if you ride on the road, you need to be insured? I had a £2k repair on a £30k+ car that was just a few days old, because a cyclist hit it while I was stationary. Why do I have to be out of pocket?

I've come back to my car in a station car park and found scrapes. and dents.

My wife had £3k worth of damage done in a car park by a builders van (not enough info from the witness to identify)

Tough - isn't it.....

 

[Nod]

 

[Pound Coin]

This is a problem that needs fixing but never will be. I see car drivers and van drivers behaving like idiots all the time but have been lucky so far not to have been hit by one when either in the car or on foot. I suppose it is only a small percentage (or maybe not) but some really do seem to be the most arrogant, ignorant. selfish, uncaring and even aggressive of people. I'd love to see something done about bad behaviour and responsibility for accidents but I can't see anything meaningful being done in my lifetime, if ever. In fact I accept that nothing meaningful will ever be done apart from prosecuting the odd one who kills a pedestrian.

Cops out and about handing out spot fines should be a nice little earner.

 

[Cagey75]

I saw this thread, and knew it'd turn into some form of anti-cyclist thread in no time

I cycle regular, never bothered anyone. If anything I've been the victim of cars/vans/lorries cutting me off, leaving me barely inches to the curb, not bothering to indicate because y'know, it's only a cyclist ... etc

A-holes are a-holes no matter what transport they use.

 

[cambsno]

My point stands, I'm either £2k down, or an have an insurance black mark due to no fault of my own. I was sitting in the car waiting for a car to pass coming the other way, and the cyclist came out between 2 parked cars straight into the nearside wing of my brand new Mini. The handlebars had dented the wing & scuttle in 2 places. He just said "Oh sorry". When I asked him about who was going to pay for it, he shrugged his shoulders and rode off. He was obviously not in control of the bike, otherwise why would he come through between 2 cars and onto the road at speed?

I paid for it out of my own pocket. I did find out where he lived and I posted him a copy of the invoice, but heard nothing.

And my point stands, there are plenty of other ways your car could get damaged but sadly, that's life.

 

[Pound Coin]

I saw this thread, and knew it'd turn into some form of anti-cyclist thread in no time

I cycle regular, never bothered anyone. If anything I've been the victim of cars/vans/lorries cutting me off, leaving me barely inches to the curb, not bothering to indicate because y'know, it's only a cyclist ... etc

A-holes are a-holes no matter what transport they use.

This in spades.

With an added - if you are in a car, van or lorry, it is one hell of a lot easier to kill someone*.

- the driver, by getting fat and unfit and suffering from heart disease, high blood pressure, obesity, stress
- the passenger by not wearing a seat belt (why do newspaper reports say "the rider wasn't wearing a helmet" but never say "the vehicle occupant wasn't wearing a seatbelt", when seat belts have a far higher demonstrable effect on survivability in a crash (and are a legal requirement)?
- the pedestrian, by the very nature that they are inadvertently in front of a heavy box-on-wheels
- the cyclist, because they have upset an entitled person who thinks they are more important than them
- the public at large, by the pollution and general environmental degradation that motorised vehicles create
- someone else lower in the queue for medical help, because there's a fat, unfit, polluted pillock in front of the queue at A&E after some vehicle related incident

 

[Pound Coin]

The old "I don't want this change so I'll do a bit of virtue signalling by claiming the police are already overworked" ploy.

If the police caught all the uninsured, MOT free and un-licensed drivers, you might have a point.

But they don't, so you don't.

 

[Jelster]

And my point stands, there are plenty of other ways your car could get damaged but sadly, that's life.

Actually watching the guy doing it, and them taking no self responsibility is just not right. It's like getting caught nicking something and saying "Well, I want it more than you do". I don't have anything against cyclists in general, but when you watch them break laws on a daily basis in London, and when this happens to you, maybe you would have a different point of view.

We get them 3 abreast in the country lanes down here, it's annoying but I realise they do it for safety. Likewise we get horse riders 2 a breast, but when they are not harming me, it's no problem. But, being reckless and damaging somebody else's property, then being devoid of responsibility is just plain wrong. But maybe you'd ride off too....

 

[Pound Coin]

I don't have anything against drivers in general, but when you watch them break laws on a daily basis in London, and when this happens to you, maybe you would have a different point of view.

 

[cambsno]

Actually watching the guy doing it, and them taking no self responsibility is just not right. It's like getting caught nicking something and saying "Well, I want it more than you do". I don't have anything against cyclists in general, but when you watch them break laws on a daily basis in London, and when this happens to you, maybe you would have a different point of view.

We get them 3 abreast in the country lanes down here, it's annoying but I realise they do it for safety. Likewise we get horse riders 2 a breast, but when they are not harming me, it's no problem. But, being reckless and damaging somebody else's property, then being devoid of responsibility is just plain wrong. But maybe you'd ride off too....

Chances are then that he wouldn't have had insurance anyway so you would be in the same position.

Bad things have happened to me at various times, but as I said, that's life.

 

[Jelster]

This in spades.

With an added - if you are in a car, van or lorry, it is one hell of a lot easier to kill someone*.

- the driver, by getting fat and unfit and suffering from heart disease, high blood pressure, obesity, stress
- the passenger by not wearing a seat belt (why do newspaper reports say "the rider wasn't wearing a helmet" but never say "the vehicle occupant wasn't wearing a seatbelt", when seat belts have a far higher demonstrable effect on survivability in a crash (and are a legal requirement)?
- the pedestrian, by the very nature that they are inadvertently in front of a heavy box-on-wheels
- the cyclist, because they have upset an entitled person who thinks they are more important than them
- the public at large, by the pollution and general environmental degradation that motorised vehicles create
- someone else lower in the queue for medical help, because there's a fat, unfit, polluted pillock in front of the queue at A&E after some vehicle related incident

Any more self assumptions you'd like to make?

How about the cyclist that jumps the red light
The cyclist that rides (at speed) on the pavement
The cyclist that goes down the inside of a vehicle at a left hand junction
The group of lycra clad power rangers that want to cycle 3 or 4 a breast, up a steep hill and keep other traffic at around 10mph

I could go on... I don't see any consideration for anyone else there, but maybe cyclist don't have to consider other, but that's not how I was taught to ride a bike.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

but maybe cyclist don't have to consider other

The majority try to be polite and sensible, that's a given. Unfortunately a minority are just as selfish as you suggest and they're the ones who need to be persuaded not to be. Teaching them road sense from a young age is the best technique...

 

[Pound Coin]

Any more self assumptions you'd like to make?

How about the cyclist that jumps the red light
The cyclist that rides (at speed) on the pavement
The cyclist that goes down the inside of a vehicle at a left hand junction
The group of lycra clad power rangers that want to cycle 3 or 4 a breast, up a steep hill and keep other traffic at around 10mph

I could go on... I don't see any consideration for anyone else there, but maybe cyclist don't have to consider other, but that's not how I was taught to ride a bike.

Yawn.

You have an exceptionally car-centric, biased and skewed view of life.

The page isn't long enough to list driver transgressions. Quite a few of which actually kill.

 

[cambsno]

Any more self assumptions you'd like to make?

How about the cyclist that jumps the red light
The cyclist that rides (at speed) on the pavement
The cyclist that goes down the inside of a vehicle at a left hand junction
The group of lycra clad power rangers that want to cycle 3 or 4 a breast, up a steep hill and keep other traffic at around 10mph

I could go on... I don't see any consideration for anyone else there, but maybe cyclist don't have to consider other, but that's not how I was taught to ride a bike.

What about the car users that don't indicate and cut across you?
What about the car driver that jumps a red light?
What about the car driver that pulls out of a junction/roundabout in front of you?
What about (when I am driving) the car driver that is doing 35mph on a 60mph road)?
What about the driver who passes me far to close?

Remember that as a cyclist I am likely to be seriously injured in a crash, possibly killed.

All people on the road like cyclists, drivers and pedestrians do things wrong, sometimes knowingly, other times by mistake. We are all different, some people don't consider anyone else most of the time, some all the time, the vast majority most of the time.

 

[Pound Coin]

Oh, and drivers are taught a lot to get their test. Things like indicating, looking before manoeuvring, watching out for hazards, not speeding, not tailgating, anticipating, etc. Lots of drivers forget these. The bigger the vehicle, the bigger the risk. Thankfully the Highway Code is being updated to be less driver-centric.

Red-light jumping. A few years old, but a great illustrator of how statistics can be misinterpreted, misreported, and help feed the vile anti-cyclist narrative.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics about red light jumping

Peter Walker: Do 57% of UK cyclists jump red lights? One motoring organisation claims so – on very flimsy evidence

www.theguardian.com

As for there being all these mad cyclists breaking all these rules all the time, it's a bit like driving a specialised performance car and waving at other drivers of the same car. You notice them because you want to, and are attuned to them.

I imagine that some drivers has been held up by tractors and hedge cutters too on country lanes, but I can't find a diatribe against those vehicles...

 

[Box Brownie]

No 'on road' (I include here the likes of cyclists colliding with pedestrians on s pavement) collisions of any vehicle/pedestrian with one & other is not a zero sum game.

Logically and legitimately pedestrians & cyclists are at risk of physical injury more so than car/lorry drivers. As far I understand what I read about the Dutch situation, motor vehicle drivers are required to have insurance explicitly to cover 'cyclist collisions'.

However or should that be but is it not the responsibility of a cyclist if they can be proven to have caused damage to a motor vehicle that was 100% their responsibility e.g. bashing into stationary cars (in traffic queues or parked).

Any such damage cannot be simply viewed as "just one of those things".......if viewed that way I surmise a cyclist would be content in the potential event of their bike being damaged in an akin manner if clipped by a lorry passing it whilst 'parked at the kerb'. Surely any/all such non personal injury situation damage has to have a quid pro quo. In other words......why don't the likes of the previously mentioned cyclist who rode into a car, taking responsibility for the damage caused???

NB I was knocked off my bike during my teens, though thankfully a very low speed interaction......just a prat of a driver turning into me as he turned left. As for driving I was taught to give cyclists, bikers & horses a wide berth and I continue to be horrified by the crass manouvering of all too many drivers who don't leave enough such room

 

[Pete R]

I’d love to be able to scooter to work on one of those things, I just wouldn’t trust people around me, or myself if they made them keep up with traffic.

 

[woof woof]

I saw this thread, and knew it'd turn into some form of anti-cyclist thread in no time

I cycle regular, never bothered anyone. If anything I've been the victim of cars/vans/lorries cutting me off, leaving me barely inches to the curb, not bothering to indicate because y'know, it's only a cyclist ... etc

A-holes are a-holes no matter what transport they use.

Well, certainly not from me, I used to be a cyclist and I loved it, but there's no denying that just as with car drivers some need to behave a lot better and that doesn't detract from you as a good cyclist. Are you a good one? If you are why do you have a problem with people whinging about the bad ones?

 

[woof woof]

This is a problem that needs fixing but never will be. I see car drivers and van drivers behaving like idiots all the time but have been lucky so far not to have been hit by one when either in the car or on foot. I suppose it is only a small percentage (or maybe not) but some really do seem to be the most arrogant, ignorant. selfish, uncaring and even aggressive of people. I'd love to see something done about bad behaviour and responsibility for accidents but I can't see anything meaningful being done in my lifetime, if ever. In fact I accept that nothing meaningful will ever be done apart from prosecuting the odd one who kills a pedestrian.

Cops out and about handing out spot fines should be a nice little earner.

Er... That happens to car drivers. Car drivers can be and indeed are prosecuted, all the time whereas who is here to enforce anything on cyclists and scooter riders?

Go out and be an absolute twit in a car and the chances are that you'll get a fine or be prosecuted sooner or later but the iresponsable and dangerous on bikes and scooters are probably very unlikely to face any consequences at all, unless they're involved in a serious incident and stick around to face the music.

Perhaps all that passed you by?

 

[woof woof]

Yawn.

You have an exceptionally car-centric, biased and skewed view of life.

The page isn't long enough to list driver transgressions. Quite a few of which actually kill.

But drivers will stand a far higher chance of being spotted and "caught." Cyclists, much less so.

You don't accept that?

 

[woof woof]

Oh, and drivers are taught a lot to get their test. Things like indicating, looking before manoeuvring, watching out for hazards, not speeding, not tailgating, anticipating, etc. Lots of drivers forget these. The bigger the vehicle, the bigger the risk. Thankfully the Highway Code is being updated to be less driver-centric.

Red-light jumping. A few years old, but a great illustrator of how statistics can be misinterpreted, misreported, and help feed the vile anti-cyclist narrative.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics about red light jumping

Peter Walker: Do 57% of UK cyclists jump red lights? One motoring organisation claims so – on very flimsy evidence

www.theguardian.com

As for there being all these mad cyclists breaking all these rules all the time, it's a bit like driving a specialised performance car and waving at other drivers of the same car. You notice them because you want to, and are attuned to them.

I imagine that some drivers has been held up by tractors and hedge cutters too on country lanes, but I can't find a diatribe against those vehicles...

Maybe because tractor drivers generally don't behave like psychopaths going through red lights, driving on pavements, between traffic or shout abuse at anyone who so much as looks sideways at them.

Honestly. all this hostility, snideness, deflection and denial.

Surely even you could agree that all road users should behave and when they act like numpties face some consequence or perhaps cyclists and scooter riders get a free pass not matter what they do forever in your mind?

 

[cambsno]

Maybe because tractor drivers generally don't behave like psychopaths going through red lights, driving on pavements, between traffic or shout abuse at anyone who so much as looks sideways at them.

Honestly. all this hostility, snideness, deflection and denial.

Surely even you could agree that all road users should behave and when they act like numpties face some consequence or perhaps cyclists and scooter riders get a free pass not matter what they do forever in your mind?

I don't see many of these cyclists you seem to and I live near Cambridge which is full of bikes.

Some here would think that most cyclists are like that. Sure, in town some will jump red lights, I have myself but I am struggling to think of seeing anyone do it dangerously (other than my then 7yo as she ignored by shouts to stop). Drivers act like numpties all the time too, and few get any consequences, from speeding through to middle lane joggers etc.. 99.9% of the time. To get busted you need to be very unlucky (not seeing speed camera) or be doing something silly/dangerous in front of a copper. I have seen cyclist pulled over for not having lights in town and if they cause injury or worse they are prosecuted.

Most drivers drive safely most of the time, most cyclists bike safely most of the time. Many on both with break laws either by accident or on purpose but normally in a low risk way (like doing 80 on a nice day on the M1, and only very few will be silly like driving at 90mph on a 30 road or jumping busy crossroads on a bike while giving the finger.

The important thing is that as a cyclist, if I do something silly it will probably hurt - at best!

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

The important thing is that as a cyclist, if I do something silly it will probably hurt - at best!

...which is all the more reason why cyclists, like all road users, need to be controlled - not only to protect them from themselves but to protect others from them.

The City of London used to have a highly visible "flying bicycle squad" who were capable of chasing down anyone behaving stupidly on a bike in the Square Mile but I think they've now been replaced largely by enforcement officers who aren't clad in Lycra...

 

[Jelster]

Yawn.

You have an exceptionally car-centric, biased and skewed view of life.

The page isn't long enough to list driver transgressions. Quite a few of which actually kill.

Well seeing as I spent many years on both pushbike and motorbike, I'll take your yawn with a pinch of salt. I'm not saying that all cyclists are evil, but many when commuting in a city or in a "pack" can be totally reckless and lose all common sense. But hey, you probably drive a Japanese hybrid and look forward to your Horlicks every night, not that I'm making assumptions of course...

Having commuted into London for 10 years by motorcycle, I've seen first hand the stupidity of some on pushbikes, especially the couriers. But then, I've seen some real idiots in cars too. My point is, EVERYBODY who uses the road should carry insurance of some kind.

 

[Jelster]

Remember that as a cyclist I am likely to be seriously injured in a crash, possibly killed.

All people on the road like cyclists, drivers and pedestrians do things wrong, sometimes knowingly, other times by mistake. We are all different, some people don't consider anyone else most of the time, some all the time, the vast majority most of the time.

But it's your choice to ride a bike on the road, it wasn't my choice to have an idiot ride into my car!

I've been a cyclist, motorcyclist, car & lorry driver at some point in my life, so I'm not coming at this with just a car drivers point of view. It was my choice to commute by motorbike into London. I used to watch in horror some of the overtakes etc that some bikers made. Most motorcyclists that get injured tend to put themselves in harms way. In the 10 years I rode into London, I came off twice on diesel (probably from a bus), and had a collision with a pedestrian who ran out between parked cars. Luckily for me, a patrol car was behind me and witnessed it, otherwise I would have probably been labeled "Another bloody biker".

I see the same thing with cyclists. No spacial awareness and putting themselves in a position where they can get hurt. Many car drivers think cyclists are travelling much slower than they actually are, that's their biggest mistake.

 

[Pound Coin]

Well seeing as I spent many years on both pushbike and motorbike, I'll take your yawn with a pinch of salt. I'm not saying that all cyclists are evil, but many when commuting in a city or in a "pack" can be totally reckless and lose all common sense. But hey, you probably drive a Japanese hybrid and look forward to your Horlicks every night, not that I'm making assumptions of course...

Having commuted into London for 10 years by motorcycle, I've seen first hand the stupidity of some on pushbikes, especially the couriers. But then, I've seen some real idiots in cars too. My point is, EVERYBODY who uses the road should carry insurance of some kind.

Pedestrians too, then.

Many cyclists do have insurance, being covered under home insurance.

What would be far better is less polarising stereotyping. It's not big and it's not clever. Like: 85% of drivers admit to speeding. The other 15% are liars.

(If your Horlicks assumptions help you, then good for you)

 

[Jelster]

Pedestrians too, then.

As they say, not even Duct tape can fix stupid..... Best you get back to the Horlicks.

 

[Pound Coin]

My point is, EVERYBODY who uses the road should carry insurance of some kind.

So, you don't want pedestrians to use the road? They have more rights to road access than drivers.

 

[cambsno]

...which is all the more reason why cyclists, like all road users, need to be controlled - not only to protect them from themselves but to protect others from them.

The City of London used to have a highly visible "flying bicycle squad" who were capable of chasing down anyone behaving stupidly on a bike in the Square Mile but I think they've now been replaced largely by enforcement officers who aren't clad in Lycra...

View attachment 340724

Not bragging as am far from in shape but would love to see a fully laden copper on a bike catch me on road bike!

So what about protecting people (drivers and cyclists) from pedestrians?

 

[cambsno]

But it's your choice to ride a bike on the road, it wasn't my choice to have an idiot ride into my car!

I've been a cyclist, motorcyclist, car & lorry driver at some point in my life, so I'm not coming at this with just a car drivers point of view. It was my choice to commute by motorbike into London. I used to watch in horror some of the overtakes etc that some bikers made. Most motorcyclists that get injured tend to put themselves in harms way. In the 10 years I rode into London, I came off twice on diesel (probably from a bus), and had a collision with a pedestrian who ran out between parked cars. Luckily for me, a patrol car was behind me and witnessed it, otherwise I would have probably been labeled "Another bloody biker".

I see the same thing with cyclists. No spacial awareness and putting themselves in a position where they can get hurt. Many car drivers think cyclists are travelling much slower than they actually are, that's their biggest mistake.

But its not my choice to have a pedestrian step in front of me (as has happened) like you had with your car. Some here are talking about a sledgehammer to crack a nut. While it may stop a few incidents people will exercise less which is bad for the country.

 

[Box Brownie]

AFAIK

It has always been the ones on wheels that need the higher vigilance than the pedestrian, not that in certain cases a pedestrian is completely blameless ~ but is for a court to decide.

Where only one wheeled vehicle of many is moving and the rest are not and a collision occurs e.g. a cycle hitting a stationery car, just who is to blame for any damage caused??? Hence is not the one moving liable for the damage and hence needs to be insured and responsible enough to not leave the scene of the incident!

 

[Jelster]

And this should cheer everybody up too...

 

[MrRichAllen1976]

I saw this thread, and knew it'd turn into some form of anti-cyclist thread in no time

I cycle regular, never bothered anyone. If anything I've been the victim of cars/vans/lorries cutting me off, leaving me barely inches to the curb, not bothering to indicate because y'know, it's only a cyclist ... etc

A-holes are a-holes no matter what transport they use.

If you think anti-cyclists rants are bad on here, try Sheffield Forum, they hate Cyclists with a vengeance on there.

 

[Cagey75]

Well, certainly not from me, I used to be a cyclist and I loved it, but there's no denying that just as with car drivers some need to behave a lot better and that doesn't detract from you as a good cyclist. Are you a good one? If you are why do you have a problem with people whinging about the bad ones?

Because I see the same nonsense everytime cycling is brought up and it's irritating. I know there's troublesome cyclists, but I come across far, far more irrate [for no apparent reason] motorists, some seem to think they have more right to the road than anyone else. I have seen cyclists who were following the rules knocked over, cut off, completely ignored and cut across - and I've seen it often enough.

If you're not the one 'whinging' then my post shouldn't concern you. But going on some of your later posts seems you are doing just that

"Maybe because tractor drivers generally don't behave like psychopaths going through red lights, driving on pavements, between traffic or shout abuse at anyone who so much as looks sideways at them."

I don't know what kind of town you live in but I see nothing of the sort from cyclists here, I see some cycle on pavements because on certain roads they're not given an inch by motorists, which is dangerous driving btw and you can be fined for it. I don't see anyone protecting cyclists in those instances