DRONES DRONES DRONES - Hypothetical Situations Of USe.

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glennk

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Ive read quite a bit on here and articles across the internet. Id like to buy a drone fitted with the latest Go pro 4 black. The main reason would be for ariel photographs to sell. Here is one scenario I have in mind. Completely hypothetical, but could also quite easily be something i do in the future.

I get commisioned to build a website for a local Campsite Business. They have a camping area for tents, and area for statics, and areas for campers and tourers.

As part of the deal I use photographs of the site taken from a drone. I adhere to the rules and regs about heights and distances etc. However Im aware this may be seen as commercial / proffessional use of the drone.

In this circumstance, do i need to apply to CAA for the permission to fly, and for any permits required etc ??

Thanks In advance.
 
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Yes it will count as commercial use and you will require an operators license.
 
So heres another scenario guys.

My friend runs a charter fishing boat. I make him a video of his boat, of the fishing on board. Some of the video is ariel footage. All shot meeting the guidlines for distance from people etc. Most of the filming is done out at sea.

The video is posted on You tube and also embeded in his website. I DO NOT charge him a fee.

Legal or illegal use ??
 
Judging by the other Drones thread, as long as you don't use it near Nuclear Installations or packed Football stadiums you will be ok ;)
 
The man who used one near a Nucleaur power station sounds like he may himself have been a product of some Chernobyl type disaster. I mean who would ever dream of flying the thing in such a silly place. that said. i have a habbit of getting things wrong. Cant be doing with a court case for being stupid :-/
 
Also flying one over a packed football stadium (presumably while the match was playing), especially when there are probably some large TV companies involved in some sort of exclusive coverage deals

I still find it very odd that these rules only seem to apply if you are being paid for the job, how can this in any way be related to safety or privacy if you only need permission if you are getting paid....... very odd indeed
 
glennk said:
So heres another scenario guys.

My friend runs a charter fishing boat. I make him a video of his boat, of the fishing on board. Some of the video is ariel footage. All shot meeting the guidlines for distance from people etc. Most of the filming is done out at sea.

The video is posted on You tube and also embeded in his website. I DO NOT charge him a fee.

Legal or illegal use ??
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Legal, obviously. You've complied with the regulations regarding proximity to people, boats, etc; you've presumably done it in a demonstrably safe manner; you haven't photographed any random strangers so here's no privacy issue; and you haven't received payment so it doesn't count as commercial work. Therefore you don't need a Permission from the CAA.
 
glennk said:
So heres another scenario guys.

My friend runs a charter fishing boat. I make him a video of his boat, of the fishing on board. Some of the video is ariel footage. All shot meeting the guidlines for distance from people etc. Most of the filming is done out at sea.

The video is posted on You tube and also embeded in his website. I DO NOT charge him a fee.

Legal or illegal use ??
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Just to present a different opinion to @StewartR

It was created with commercial intent (to advertise a commercial business), it doesn't need to be paid for to be a commercial piece of work.



But any more hypothetical variations on a theme and I'll begin to suspect we're counting angels on the head of a pin in terms of can't-be-ar$edness and not doing things properly. After all, the opening post says it all (ignoring the persistent typo - unless @glennk really is a massive fan of The Little Mermaid ;))..

glennk said:
Ive read quite a bit on here and articles across the internet. Id like to buy a drone fitted with the latest Go pro 4 black. The main reason would be for ariel photographs to sell. Here is one scenario I have in mind. Completely hypothetical, but could also quite easily be something i do in the future.
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This is always a problem you run into. I would like to follow Stewart R's advice and beleive the world would be a great place where you would be allowed to create something useful. However, im equally well sure that the powers that be would likely follow Alistairs points and haul me before a magistrates. this is where a good solicitor could come in handy.

Sorry about the hypotheticals. they are only hypothetical because they atre in my head. If legal they would soon become reality. I have a lot of ideas for getting creative with one of these things.
 
glennk said:
This is always a problem you run into. I would like to follow Stewart R's advice and beleive the world would be a great place where you would be allowed to create something useful. However, im equally well sure that the powers that be would likely follow Alistairs points and haul me before a magistrates. this is where a good solicitor could come in handy.

Sorry about the hypotheticals. they are only hypothetical because they atre in my head. If legal they would soon become reality. I have a lot of ideas for getting creative with one of these things.
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I know my original point was somewhat tongue in cheek, but who exactly do you think would be bringing you to court, i'm pretty sure the CAA don't have spies watching all over the country for the first person to fly a drone and then send them court proceedings if they see the video posted up with commercial intent

I suppose whjat i'm saying is it's more to do with being sensible with your drone and not flying it anywhere where you might get into trouble.............. like secret nuclear submarine bases

And yes, i know the law is the law (rules is rules, or whatever), but how many of us on here can hand on heart say you have never broken the speed limit
 
rpsmith79 said:
I know my original point was somewhat tongue in cheek, but who exactly do you think would be bringing you to court, i'm pretty sure the CAA don't have spies watching all over the country for the first person to fly a drone and then send them court proceedings if they see the video posted up with commercial intent

I suppose whjat i'm saying is it's more to do with being sensible with your drone and not flying it anywhere where you might get into trouble.............. like secret nuclear submarine bases

And yes, i know the law is the law (rules is rules, or whatever), but how many of us on here can hand on heart say you have never broken the speed limit
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There is a whistleblower form on the CAA website, mainly to report those undertaking professional work without a PFAW. Anyone seeing one of these machines flying over a motorway, down a high street should call the police.
 
StewartR said:
... and you haven't received payment so it doesn't count as commercial work.
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Alastair said:
It was created with commercial intent (to advertise a commercial business), it doesn't need to be paid for to be a commercial piece of work.
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glennk said:
This is always a problem you run into. I would like to follow Stewart R's advice....
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It wasn't "advice", it was just my opinion and it is worth exactly what you paid for it. (Though if you're not satisfied I'll happily refund you.)

If you want advice, speak to a lawyer or to the CAA directly.

FWIW, my *opinion* is that the scenario you've described would be legal *if* the activity is carried out with no expectation of receiving any kind of payment or payment-in-kind or reciprocal favour. Here's how the CAA define "aerial work":
Aerial work, as described in the Air Navigation Order, means any purpose (other than public transport) for which an aircraft is flown if valuable consideration is given or promised in respect of the purpose of the flight
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Ref: http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=1428&pagetype=90&pageid=8162
 
Ricardodaforce said:
There is a whistleblower form on the CAA website, mainly to report those undertaking professional work without a PFAW. Anyone seeing one of these machines flying over a motorway, down a high street should call the police.
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And how exactly do we know if they are undertaking paid work, and who (other than those in the know, which is very few people) would even contemplate reporting someone for flying a drone

Do you also report every speeding driver you see Riacardo?
 
rpsmith79 said:
And how exactly do we know if they are undertaking paid work, and who (other than those in the know, which is very few people) would even contemplate reporting someone for flying a drone

Do you also report every speeding driver you see Riacardo?
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If I saw ANY drone flying over a motorway or down a High Street (assuming it's not closed off with no public there) then yes I would call the police.
 
Ricardodaforce said:
If I saw ANY drone flying over a motorway or down a High Street (assuming it's not closed off with no public there) then yes I would call the police.
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Why would you though, how do you know they are being paid for it, what if it was a 12 year old kid flying it, would you report them

I'm sure the Police would love to know about every single drone flight that gets seen and reported to them o_O

I also think a speeding driver would be much more likely to cause harm or injury than a drone flying down a high street, do you report those too?
 
A good friend of mine, a qualified airline pilot took the CAA exams to use his drone in a commercial capacity, on top of paying quite a bit for the course he also has taken out the appropriate insurance, he tells me it cost a small fortune,
 
rpsmith79 said:
Why would you though, how do you know they are being paid for it, what if it was a 12 year old kid flying it, would you report them

I'm sure the Police would love to know about every single drone flight that gets seen and reported to them o_O

I also think a speeding driver would be much more likely to cause harm or injury than a drone flying down a high street, do you report those too?
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Why would I? A remote control aircraft of any type flying over a motorway or crowded high street has the recipe for disaster. It would not be legal to do paid for work in those circumstances either. Maybe I feel more responsible to report these infractions than you do because in the near future I will be part of that group of properly-permitted and insured aerial photographers.
 
keithphoto said:
A good friend of mine, a qualified airline pilot took the CAA exams to use his drone in a commercial capacity, on top of paying quite a bit for the course he also has taken out the appropriate insurance, he tells me it cost a small fortune,
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There are no CAA exams Keith. The exams are run by accredited training agencies (I believe there are now 4 in the UK). The CAA issue the Permission when the operator has passed the Pilot Theory exam, written and had approved their Operations Manual, passed their Flight exam and secured insurance. It is a costly process that takes time.
Part of the Flight exam will be checking that the operator has the requited safety equipment; aviation charts, all manner of checklists, hi viz clothing with ID, fire extinguisher, medical kit, cones.
 
Ricardodaforce said:
Why would I? A remote control aircraft of any type flying over a motorway or crowded high street has the recipe for disaster. It would not be legal to do paid for work in those circumstances either. Maybe I feel more responsible to report these infractions than you do because in the near future I will be part of that group of properly-permitted and insured aerial photographers.
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So how many injuries/deaths have been attributed to drone crashes over crowded areas compared to say speeding motorists, since you seem to have evaded my question several times now regards to reporting every speeding driver you see, which i'm 99.0% sure the statistics will be in favour of speeding drivers causing more accident/injuries/deaths than drones ever have or ever will (excluding military drones of course)
 
keithphoto said:
A good friend of mine, a qualified airline pilot took the CAA exams to use his drone in a commercial capacity, on top of paying quite a bit for the course he also has taken out the appropriate insurance, he tells me it cost a small fortune,
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I have a couple of drones, (one is currently for sale in the Non Photographic section)
I don't fly them commercially or near Nuclear power stations, but have full liability insurance through the BMFA that costs me around £34 a year.
I wouldn't think insurance for commercial use would be much more bearing in mind the skill level you need to get through the CAA required exams.
Allan
 
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Ricardodaforce said:
There are no CAA exams Keith. The exams are run by accredited training agencies (I believe there are now 4 in the UK). The CAA issue the Permission when the operator has passed the Pilot Theory exam, written and had approved their Operations Manual, passed their Flight exam and secured insurance. It is a costly process that takes time.
Part of the Flight exam will be checking that the operator has the requited safety equipment; aviation charts, all manner of checklists, hi viz clothing with ID, fire extinguisher, medical kit, cones.
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Sounds massively inappropriate to fly a phantom.
 
rpsmith79 said:
So how many injuries/deaths have been attributed to drone crashes over crowded areas compared to say speeding motorists, since you seem to have evaded my question several times now regards to reporting every speeding driver you see, which i'm 99.0% sure the statistics will be in favour of speeding drivers causing more accident/injuries/deaths than drones ever have or ever will (excluding military drones of course)
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I expect inappropriate driving contributes to the death of more people in a week than drones (of all types) have ever killed.

In the UK I expect more people are killed by cars on pavements than any drone incidents in this country.

Peoples perception of risk is skewed so badly its not funny.
 
rpsmith79 said:
So how many injuries/deaths have been attributed to drone crashes over crowded areas compared to say speeding motorists, since you seem to have evaded my question several times now regards to reporting every speeding driver you see, which i'm 99.0% sure the statistics will be in favour of speeding drivers causing more accident/injuries/deaths than drones ever have or ever will (excluding military drones of course)
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No idea, and I am not part of the hysteria surrounding these things. I did explain why I would report illegal use if I saw it. If you don't want to accept my point of view that fine.
 
rpsmith79 said:
Why would you though, how do you know they are being paid for it, what if it was a 12 year old kid flying it, would you report them
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A drone flying down the motorway and you think being twelve years old is a valid defence? JTF.. ..
 
Alastair said:
A drone flying down the motorway and you think being twelve years old is a valid defence? JTF.. ..
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Well yes it is according to the regs, as long as he isn't being paid it seems its perfectly fine
 
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