Driverless cars.

[RedRobin]

In my work we are involved in numerous tests of autonomous cars around the world - the company makes visibility sensors. Right now, no-one can even get the car to see properly or reliably in anything but clear air on closed test tracks. Add fog, rain, smog, etc., and the results are nowhere near good enough to let them loose on the roads. Take away the white lines and most are blinder than a bat. I don't really understand how there haven't already been more "drivers" or other road users killed during live testing.

The technology will catch up eventually but it ain't there yet and hasn't progressed very far in the last 5 years

.... That's good news in my opinion. Technology never stands still, as you know well, but it seems to me that the number of existing road incidents/accidents will simply be substituted by incidents just as fatal but of a different type. Personally, I would expect there to be an increase in fatal and serious incidents due to 'driverless' cars.

 

[Norkie]

I can understand the usefulness of driver less military vehicles for example, but a car to take me to Lidls?

Not sure I understand.

 

[Sky]

I wonder if autonomous cars causing an 'accident' would be called a 'computer crash'?

 

[srichards]

I read the bits in the manual about when the ACC and similar things don't work or don't work well. The list is long and again that makes me wonder how any of these autonomous systems will ever work. You can see for things like driving a train they'd be pretty good. ACC seems to be affected by too curved roads and following trucks. It didn't detect when traffic ahead was stopped either unless it was following a vehicle that had already noticed and started to slow down.

Part of the issue is roads themselves. Too many aren't marked clearly with clear signs that are never obscured. Layouts aren't consistent between counties or even successive roundabouts.

The day an autonomous car can navigate around Smallthorne Roundabouts in Stoke On Trent without causing a pile up or just sitting there like a muppet forever is the day I might believe autonomous cars will work.

Autonomous driving systems don't seem to have a memory. That's partly why they can't be as good as a human until they do. Once someone has been down the same road a few times when it is foggy it's not so bad as they know a lot of what is there so they can fill in the blanks. This is the strength and weakness of humans as they don't look and rely on memory to fill in...

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

I was once overtook by a driver less car whilst cycling home from work, within 50yards it took out a road sign ,swerved across the grass where children were playing and then crashed into a full skip on someones drive pushing it through their metal garage door ( lucky the skip was there) it could have killed me the kids on the grass area or anyone body else. when the police turned up it was proven to be a snapped hand break cable, the owner a young girl turned up crying as she had, had her car stolen a week ago, had to buy a new one then this happened ! There was no software to fail. As I have read there has aready been a few people killed by the more modern versions of the driverless cars.

 

[JonathanRyan]

Imagine you are involved in designing the logic controlling a self driving car & you are faced with a dilemma;

The radar has detected a child stepping out in front of the vehicle & there is not enough distance to stop.....

The choices are brake hard anyway & hit the child, veer to the left & mount the pavement where a group of people are standing, or veer to the right and collide head on with an HGV ....

What do you do?

As an ex-programmer I would hate to have to make the call.....

If you believe the news, they asked a version of this to all the car manufacturers - basically given the hard choice do you kill many innocent bystanders or the "driver"? IIRC all manufacturers said "kill the driver" apart from one (and since I don't like BMW I'll assume it was them) who preferred mowing down dozens of children - their argument was "who would buy a car programmed to kill them?".

But this is fun - you can play along - https://www.moralmachine.net/

 

[RedRobin]

I read the bits in the manual about when the ACC and similar things don't work or don't work well. The list is long and again that makes me wonder how any of these autonomous systems will ever work. You can see for things like driving a train they'd be pretty good. ACC seems to be affected by too curved roads and following trucks. It didn't detect when traffic ahead was stopped either unless it was following a vehicle that had already noticed and started to slow down.

Part of the issue is roads themselves. Too many aren't marked clearly with clear signs that are never obscured. Layouts aren't consistent between counties or even successive roundabouts.

The day an autonomous car can navigate around Smallthorne Roundabouts in Stoke On Trent without causing a pile up or just sitting there like a muppet forever is the day I might believe autonomous cars will work.

Autonomous driving systems don't seem to have a memory. That's partly why they can't be as good as a human until they do. Once someone has been down the same road a few times when it is foggy it's not so bad as they know a lot of what is there so they can fill in the blanks. This is the strength and weakness of humans as they don't look and rely on memory to fill in...

.... You have hit the nail on the head! (your words I have highlit in bold).

Driving anywhere no matter how short the journey is a process of constant adaptation to the dynamic of continually changing circumstances. In fact for me personally that's part of the buzz from driving - Reacting accordingly and making progress. And that's also why I want to be in as much control of any vehicle as possible - I prefer to be in charge of my own destiny and safety when in an environment with lots of other human beings!!

Apart from military use in combat I can see no point in driverless vehicles. Autopilot mode in aircraft and in trains on rails are much better suited but even then the pilot/train driver must be highly trained and constantly alert!

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

If you believe the news,

Very much in the "Elvis ate my flying saucer" tradition of internet tall stories.

 

[Cobra]

Take away the white lines and most are blinder than a bat.

On a recently up graded and newly laid road that I travel ( I'm thinking A14 specifically) the white lines are now a form of rumble strip, vibrating and "screeching" when you "hit" one overtaking.
I assumed that this is all to do the the impending nightmare that will be autonomous cars.

IIRC all manufacturers said "kill the driver"

So they are going to have a self destruct programme once the above scenario starts to play out?

 

[OneOffDave]

If you believe the news, they asked a version of this to all the car manufacturers - basically given the hard choice do you kill many innocent bystanders or the "driver"? IIRC all manufacturers said "kill the driver" apart from one (and since I don't like BMW I'll assume it was them) who preferred mowing down dozens of children - their argument was "who would buy a car programmed to kill them?".

But this is fun - you can play along - https://www.moralmachine.net/

How would a real driver manage this situation rather than an algorithm? We seem to want autonomous cars to be perfect when all we really need is for them to be better than us. the real change will come when there's a critical mass of autonomous vehicles on the road. A lot of collisions may be avoided by the vehicles communicating with each other and 'agreeing' avoiding action the same way that aircraft use TCAS to make sure avoiding actions doesn't bring them into conflict

I've been pleasantly surprised by how good the blind spot system on my car is at picking out pedestrians and cyclists. The latter really helps when they are filtering on the left at traffic lights and the lights change

 

[OneOffDave]

On a recently up graded and newly laid road that I travel ( I'm thinking A14 specifically) the white lines are now a form of rumble strip, vibrating and "screeching" when you "hit" one overtaking.
I assumed that this is all to do the the impending nightmare that will be autonomous cars.

A lot of white lines are textured to stop them becoming hazardous to motorcycles in the wet. Smooth ones can be really 'greasy' during and after rain

 

[Cobra]

A lot of white lines are textured to stop them becoming hazardous to motorcycles in the wet. Smooth ones can be really 'greasy' during and after rain

Fair point
And yes many are textured, but the are "excessively" so, compared to others that I've encountered over many years,
both in 4 wheels and on 2.

 

[JonathanRyan]

How would a real driver manage this situation rather than an algorithm? We seem to want autonomous cars to be perfect when all we really need is for them to be better than us. the real change will come when there's a critical mass of autonomous vehicles on the road. A lot of collisions may be avoided by the vehicles communicating with each other and 'agreeing' avoiding action the same way that aircraft use TCAS to make sure avoiding actions doesn't bring them into conflict

I've been pleasantly surprised by how good the blind spot system on my car is at picking out pedestrians and cyclists. The latter really helps when they are filtering on the left at traffic lights and the lights change

See the link I posted above. Play the game and try to answer honestly what you would do. What does the "moral value" of the collateral damage have to be before you swerve into a wall to avoid it? For most human drivers I suspect far higher than they would admit.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

What does the "moral value" of the collateral damage have to be before you swerve into a wall to avoid it?

It seems to me that if a driver finds himself in that position, he's already broken the first rule of safety: which is to ALWAYS drive within your stopping distance. Morality is therefor irrelevant.

 

[JohnM100]

A lot of white lines are textured to stop them becoming hazardous to motorcycles in the wet. Smooth ones can be really 'greasy' during and after rain

Indeed and some are textured to alert a driver they are are deviating from their lane eg. between motorway left hand lane and hard shoulder - assuming you can still find a motorway with a hard shoulder.......

 

[Cockney]

I shudder to think what hackers and tech savvy boy racers will do.

 

[JohnM100]

.....
But this is fun - you can play along - https://www.moralmachine.net/

AKA the ‘trolley problem’ per post #30

 

[JonathanRyan]

It seems to me that if a driver finds himself in that position, he's already broken the first rule of safety: which is to ALWAYS drive within your stopping distance. Morality is therefor irrelevant.

Yeah - because nothing ever crosses your path from the side, right?

AKA the ‘trolley problem’ per post #30

In which you said that a considerate, compassionate human would be able to decide what to do. The actual research says it's way more complicated than that.

http://moralmachineresults.scalablecoop.org/ - the UK skews towards preferring inaction. Aka (mostly) mow people down. Russia interestingly skews towards protecting the lawful at the expense of women.

 

[RedRobin]

I shudder to think what hackers and tech savvy boy racers will do.

.... We savvy man racers Professional tuners already do. It's usually only a matter of a few weeks before the car manufacturer's ECU codes can be broken and improvements made.

 

[RedRobin]

...In which you said that a considerate, compassionate human would be able to decide what to do. The actual research says it's way more complicated than that.

http://moralmachineresults.scalablecoop.org/ - the UK skews towards preferring inaction. Aka (mostly) mow people down. Russia interestingly skews towards protecting the lawful at the expense of women.

.... The research means diddlysquat in my opinion - I suggest that Self Preservation is primary and instinctive and consequently overrides any of the theories.

You might be a hero and risk your life for those you know such as close family or the guys you are with in armed combat against an enemy, but not those people you don't know unless you have chosen to and so are trained - RNLI lifeguards for example.

 

[Cockney]

.... We savvy man racers Professional tuners already do. It's usually only a matter of a few weeks before the car manufacturer's ECU codes can be broken and improvements made.

Chipping is one thing. Adjusting proximity sensors, braking, cornering speeds and decision making algorithms in the control software is something else.

 

[RedRobin]

It seems to me that if a driver finds himself in that position, he's already broken the first rule of safety: which is to ALWAYS drive within your stopping distance. Morality is therefor irrelevant.

.... I agree.

These big boys help but it's also always subject to tyre and road surface conditions too. These brakes are aftermarket and not the original car manufacturer's, likewise my rear brakes to help the braking balance.

I would rather have big brakes and not need them than need them and not have them!



[ Jeeze! That RedRobin guy is such a boy-racer!!! ]

 

[RedRobin]

Chipping is one thing. Adjusting proximity sensors, braking, cornering speeds and decision making algorithms in the control software is something else.

.... I agree. Although physical 'chipping' is no longer done and is not very sophisticated. It's down to ECU software programming.

It's probably my fault for going slightly off the point because the discussion is more about automated vehicle control software rather than vehicle performance software.

 

[broc]

.... The research means diddlysquat in my opinion - I suggest that Self Preservation is primary and instinctive and consequently overrides any of the theories.

You might be a hero and risk your life for those you know such as close family or the guys you are with in armed combat against an enemy, but not those people you don't know unless you have chosen to and so are trained - RNLI lifeguards for example.

My original point raised in this discussion was what would you do if you were coding the software, not what you would do if you were sat behind the wheel? The AI in car onboard computer systems will learn from experience in many situations but maybe you would not want AI 'learning' how best too minimise casualties from having accidents?

 

[broc]

Apparently Tesla has discovered owners of their vehicles have been 'hacking' their vehicle software to enable features that are present in the cars that they haven't paid for.....Some 'enterprising' manufacturer was supplying a plug in module to enable chargeable and performance enhancement features.

Tesla hacker unlocks Performance upgrade and acceleration boost at a discount

It was bound to happen at some point and it finally did. A company hacked Tesla’s software and it is...

electrek.co

 

[RedRobin]

My original point raised in this discussion was what would you do if you were coding the software, not what you would do if you were sat behind the wheel? The AI in car onboard computer systems will learn from experience in many situations but maybe you would not want AI 'learning' how best too minimise casualties from having accidents?

.... How "best" to minimise casualties is the problem. I would argue that the sorts of AI software controls being proposed and discussed are potentially far more dangerous. So I am against driverless cars. But I don't even like Cruise Control and never ever use it.

A simple example of this principle is that if cars have speed limiters such as not being able to physically travel faster than any of the legal 60/70mph speed limits, then overtaking can quickly become extremely dangerous on two-way A-roads. Also long trains of traffic are too easily formed which inevitably have their own set of dangers. To enjoy my driving I always grasp a safe opportunity to get ahead of pods of cars travelling close together and then I can enjoy the open road.

AI software in post-processing photographic images even have limitations and don't always work in every single case. AI Noise reduction is a good example I have direct experience of.

 

[RedRobin]

Apparently Tesla has discovered owners of their vehicles have been 'hacking' their vehicle software to enable features that are present in the cars that they haven't paid for.....Some 'enterprising' manufacturer was supplying a plug in module to enable chargeable and performance enhancement features.

.... Excellent! This does not surprise me in the least. [I haven't read the link yet as you added it later]

Some of the Tesla range have very fast acceleration indeed (but I'm told are very dull and boring to drive). For safety reasons they need to make some noise so they can be heard outside!

 

[Cobra]

A simple example of this principle is that if cars have speed limiters such as not being able to physically travel faster than any of the legal 60/70mph speed limits, then overtaking can quickly become extremely dangerous on two-way A-roads.

You only have to look at how long lorries take to overtake one another these days.
And it can cause frustration among other drives, even on duel [sic] carriageways.
Causing them to tailgate the car in front, or try and undertake before said lorry reached the one in front.
Yes I've seen it all

 

[scottduffy]

Would be great if there was some kind of breathalyser that stopped the car from starting if you were over the limit.

 

[Suvv]

Would be great if there was some kind of breathalyser that stopped the car from starting if you were over the limit.

My one is called Brenda, I will have had her 46 years on 31st August!

 

[Marc]

A simple example of this principle is that if cars have speed limiters such as not being able to physically travel faster than any of the legal 60/70mph speed limits, then overtaking can quickly become extremely dangerous on two-way A-roads

Speed limiters can be overridden but pushing harder on the accelerator, which you would do when overtaking.

 

[srichards]

Speed limiters can be overridden but pushing harder on the accelerator, which you would do when overtaking.

At the moment they can... I'd bet that feature would get removed.

I've got traffic sign and speed limit recognition and it's hopeless at times. Random 30 limits in much faster roads and I even saw one saying '80' the other week. That's not even a valid speed for the UK.

 

[JohnM100]

Speed soft-limiters an EU requirement from 2022 IIRC.

Yes they can be over-ridden in an emergency but:
A) am sure the car will bleat a warning at you at a time when you need to focus, and will probably log the incident in case you crash shortly afterward.
B) flooring the throttle in a lot of modern cars with drive modes puts them into Banzai mode irrespective of whether you were in Driving Miss Daisy mode previously or not. In our household we call it ‘hooligan mode’.

Volvo already capping their cars at 112mph.

SatNav map speed limits - often out of date
Traffic sign recognition - usually work until some kids use a pair of pliers to turn the 30 zone to derestricted signs by 180 degrees on the pole......

As per other posts, too much technology lulling people into a false sense of security, and when something falls outside that, they don’t expect it and furthermore have little experience of how to handle it.

I deliberately turn ESC off once in a while; not to be a knob but to keep currency and feeling of how my car really reacts.

 

[RedRobin]

You only have to look at how long lorries take to overtake one another these days.

.... In Germany they call it 'Elephant racing' and I wish I could remember the term in German!!

But I must be a pervert because I love being the first car behind a slow overtaking lorry, keeping a very safe braking distance of course (if you can't see their rear view mirrors they can't see you), and then when have have completed their overtake I slip her down a gear or two and accelerate very hard with a clear road ahead. It also loses impatient drivers behind me.

And it can cause frustration among other drives, even on duel [sic] carriageways.
Causing them to tailgate the car in front, or try and undertake before said lorry reached the one in front.
Yes I've seen it all

.... When drivers tailgate me I often slow down very gradually and then accelerate away ahead very hard indeed (the engine sounds glorious too) and then pull out of the overtaking lane so they can pass later if they want. Surprisingly often they don't chase after me up even when I settle my speed back down, so why on earth were they tailgating me?

So-called safety aids like front and rear sensors surely encourage tailgating by educating drivers to think that tailgating doesn't matter. Yet another example of why so many modern driver aids are a very bad idea in my opinion.

 

[RedRobin]

Speed limiters can be overridden but pushing harder on the accelerator, which you would do when overtaking.

.... Are you taliking about the speed limiter you would have actioned via a Cruise Control? Or perhaps like those found in many automatic transmissions?

There is usually a throttle lag with accelerator overrides and they encourage stamping on the pedal instead of accelerating smoothly (and feeding in the power quickly and without wheelspin).

 

[Marc]

.... Are you taliking about the speed limiter you would have actioned via a Cruise Control? Or perhaps like those found in many automatic transmissions?

There is usually a throttle lag with accelerator overrides and they encourage stamping on the pedal instead of accelerating smoothly (and feeding in the power quickly and without wheelspin).

I have it on my car (automatic) but it's separate from the cruise control. I'v never used it so couldn't tell you about lag but I would imagine that the driver should allow for it when overtaking.

 

[Diving Pete]

I cannot wait for a driverless car...

I used to be a bus driver in london for 8 years - there are rising amounts of people that just should not drive...

The amount of dead drivers due to the 'auto system failing is so tiny its a non issue - IN GOOD WEATHER....

I have my motor bikes to ride for fun - there is limited enjoyment in driving in or nr london these days.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Yeah - because nothing ever crosses your path from the side, right?

That seems a rather odd response. If you are driving within your stopping distance, you should be ready to respond to emergencies caused by bad drivers.

 

[JonathanRyan]

That seems a rather odd response. If you are driving within your stopping distance, you should be ready to respond to emergencies caused by bad drivers.

Closest I've ever been to being involved in a pile up was when a fox sprinted the 15 feet from deep cover into lane 1 of the M25 at night whilst I was driving at a speed suitable to road conditions. I didn't even see it until it crossed the headlight beam. No way braking would have helped me. I mean, unless it was AI braking with radar tracking looking 2 cars ahead.

 

[Cobra]

So-called safety aids like front and rear sensors surely encourage tailgating by educating drivers to think that tailgating doesn't matter. Yet another example of why so many modern driver aids are a very bad idea in my opinion.

Your'll get no argument from me on that score