Driverless Cars

[Cobra]

That is besides the point. Many of is enjoy driving, but that is irrelevant.

Of course, the driver-less cars are just one more obstacle to navigate around, who doesn't like a nice slalom from time to time ?

 

[dejongj]

You wont be so lucky unfortunately. Lane separation will squeeze you out to very slow speeds behind the rest of the ludites.

Why not join the revolution. Have a snooze whilst being driven to my racetrack that I am creating on the eastern side of the chilterns, behind the downs. You can drive some proper cars there on a proper track.

And my second tract will be a driverless car destruction derby. You can hire a Fiat 500x and its brother the LM002 to crash and demolish the cars. That will be free at the point of use as I am negotiating a lucrative nhs private deal to provide therapy to luddites.

I've got it all planned out, you got to see the big picture dude

Ps No Ford manufactured vehicle will be there

 

[Cobra]

You wont be so lucky unfortunately. Lane separation will squeeze you out to very slow speeds behind the rest of the ludites. And my second tract will be a driverless car destruction derby.

I'm sure my Isuzu will nudge them out the way as you can bet they will be nothing more "solid" or larger than a "smart car"
(What donut called them that I wonder?)
So the M25 will become a demolition derby in its own right and more so than it is now

I wonder what happens if you do hit one? some irate robot leaps out and gives you virtual abuse?

 

[dejongj]

Lol that would be nice.

PS Note to self, better preorder that new GL class driverless car ready to stay save from Cobra.

Seriously though, I showed my wife how the big beast can park itself. It was visiting some friends just off smith square in London and parking was tight. She freaked out when I took my hand off the steering and let 2.5 tonnes of German steel manouvre itself.

Her reaction; "I'll never use that, rather park myself...". Pah I've still got a lot of work to do with that one. Same like with the thermostat, it is manually on or off opposed to selecting the temperature.

I despair...

 

[nilagin]

That is besides the point. Many of is enjoy driving, but that is irrelevant.

Why is it irrelevant. If cars become driverless you will no longer be able to enjoy driving.
Some on this thread have said they would like it that know one would have to own a car and that we could make all our journeys in driverless taxis. That would be a major inconvenience to me. I go to the gym after work on an early shift and before work on a late shift. It will mean taking two bags everywhere, when it's so much easier to leave the one I don't need in the car until I need it. The same when I go to Brands Hatch or many other race tracks, it means having to carry my food around with me all day instead of leaving it in a coolbox in the car.

 

[nilagin]

Lol that would be nice.

PS Note to self, better preorder that new GL class driverless car ready to stay save from Cobra.

Seriously though, I showed my wife how the big beast can park itself. It was visiting some friends just off smith square in London and parking was tight. She freaked out when I took my hand off the steering and let 2.5 tonnes of German steel manouvre itself.

Her reaction; "I'll never use that, rather park myself...". Pah I've still got a lot of work to do with that one. Same like with the thermostat, it is manually on or off opposed to selecting the temperature.

I despair...

Self parking would be wasted on me too. I never park in small spaces, saves having to have dents and scrapes repaired from the others who can't drive.

 

[dejongj]

You are just looking for problems in the detail without looking at the big picture. If you have enough money you will be able to have your own, complete with armour options and everything.

The more serious point is that it is inevitable in the crowded future. Driving pleasure and commuting is futile. Heck commuting itself is such an,outdated concept already.

We've just gone through a home working survey and some of the responses really surprised me. Just like yourself, constraint by imagination no transformational and merely listing issues (excuses) why something wouldn't be a good idea opposed to looking differently at the problem.

 

[dejongj]

Self parking would be wasted on me too. I never park in small spaces, saves having to have dents and scrapes repaired from the others who can't drive.

Its just a car, have them fixed at trade in. Although I must admit, I get more scratches from branches on the country lanes than I get dents or scratches from parking.

 

[nilagin]

The more serious point is that it is inevitable in the crowded future. Driving pleasure and commuting is futile. Heck commuting itself is such an,outdated concept already.

We've just gone through a home working survey and some of the responses really surprised me. Just like yourself, constraint by imagination no transformational and merely listing issues (excuses) why something wouldn't be a good idea opposed to looking differently at the problem.

I see little traffic on my side of the road commuting to work or driving home and it's 70mph for about 85% of the journey. All the sheep are always travelling in the opposite direction.
Working from home isn't an option, I can't see my employer giving me a £250k prototype engine to take home and develop. Especially as I don't have an engine dyno at home.

 

[nilagin]

Its just a car, .

To you maybe, but then you do have a Merc and a VW.

 

[Cobra]

She freaked out when I took my hand off the steering and let 2.5 tonnes of German steel manouvre itself.

Traction control, ABS, parking sensors, and all the other gadgets were designed for people that thought they could drive but couldn't.
More nanny state telling us what to do and how we should do it

 

[LongLensPhotography]

Lane separation

won't happen. Prohibitive cost, narrow roads, etc. Driverless cars will happily cope with all traffic, as they will inevitably need to.

 

[dejongj]

I see little traffic on my side of the road commuting to work or driving home and it's 70mph for about 85% of the journey. All the sheep are always travelling in the opposite direction.
Working from home isn't an option, I can't see my employer giving me a £250k prototype engine to take home and develop. Especially as I don't have an engine dyno at home.

Brilliant example of a very valid exception. In the new future I agree.

But also in the near future by reducing the commute of the "sheep" it will be even better for the rest on the roads.

However looking further ahead, why would you need to be there in person with that engine. Why cant you do it remotely. I mean today we can operate on a human body remotely, what is so special about an engine that you have to be there in person? That is rhetorical question for the avoidance of doubt. The only reason is that the remote capabilities arent implemented yet.

 

[dejongj]

To you maybe, but then you do have a Merc and a VW.

Hey what can I say, they stole my grandmothers bicycle and I'm getting it back

 

[dejongj]

Traction control, ABS, parking sensors, and all the other gadgets were designed for people that thought they could drive but couldn't.
More nanny state telling us what to do and how we should do it

Possibly, I think ib reality the user interface and experience is not quite right. I'm old enough to have learned to drive (at least in my country we had to take a test both practical and theoretical) without power steering and abs and the likes.

And sometimes (in the wrong car) I do find that I'm fighting the power steering especially those that have an electric rack. The Prius was especially terrible which became noticeable especially after done considerable miles in one.

Likewise with abs and brake assist. When you feel that pedal being pulled away, and the you feel it pulsate underneath you. Whilst your initial reaction in that situation is actually to pump it yourself, I find that rather unsettling.

I can imagine it is different to those who never experienced driving without those aids. However when it is implemented well, like in the VW Golf R you haven't got your foot on it anyway. The experience then becomes a good one.

And for those who dont want that, you can press and hold a button and switch it all off. I'm man enough to admit that the reaction times of the computer were better than mine for the few times it actually intervened (like someone pulling out without indicating of their lane on the motorway) I would still have managed, but it would have been a lot closer. Hence my fully comprehensive insurance is only £136 for sdp+business use with no special discounts other than standard noclaim discount as I've never had to claim (touching wood).

 

[nilagin]

However looking further ahead, why would you need to be there in person with that engine. Why cant you do it remotely. I mean today we can operate on a human body remotely, what is so special about an engine that you have to be there in person?

Check fluid levels every morning, top up fluid levels, change the oil and spark plugs, check over looms for breaks or heat damage, replace pressure transducers and thermocouples as they stop functioning. Change emissions filters. Fit new test components, change clutches, check cambelt tensions or replace, listen for knock or strange noises that speakers can't diagnose. Diagnose other problems with the engine and fix straight away. Install the engine, dismount the engine, I have 4 computer screens running and monitoring and recording all testing, Plus some of the testing has to be done manually because the computer won't put enough fuel in, won't put enough spark in, plus because they are prototype development engines, they are not going to want secret data out for other car manufacturers to be able to intercept and steal their ideas. We're not even allowed to take photos without prior permission.
Plus the most important thing, interacting with workmates properly, something a camera and microphone can never truly replace.

 

[dejongj]

Check fluid levels every morning, top up fluid levels, change the oil and spark plugs, check over looms for breaks or heat damage, replace pressure transducers and thermocouples as they stop functioning. Change emissions filters. Fit new test components, change clutches, check cambelt tensions or replace, listen for knock or strange noises that speakers can't diagnose. Diagnose other problems with the engine and fix straight away. Install the engine, dismount the engine, I have 4 computer screens running and monitoring and recording all testing, Plus some of the testing has to be done manually because the computer won't put enough fuel in, won't put enough spark in, plus because they are prototype development engines, they are not going to want secret data out for other car manufacturers to be able to intercept and steal their ideas. We're not even allowed to take photos without prior permission.
Plus the most important thing, interacting with workmates properly, something a camera and microphone can never truly replace.

All possible to perform remotely with the right investment. Sure I appreciate you can't do that tomorrow, there will have to be put in place enabling technology but none of what you've mentioned cant be done remotely. And most of what you've mentioned can be done with current technological capabilities.

And it will then provide plenty of time to meet up with your mates.

 

[ianp5a]

It's obviously an alien concept to you but some of us actually enjoy driving.

Wrong. Which is why I previously posted here about go-kart tracks for recreation. Some even get a kick out of knowing a clever way to avoid gridlocked spots. And beating the rush.
Some people I work with like driving too. But with no parking spaces, and heavy traffic, they choose the underground.

Cities with the most dire congestion...

Most people don't enjoy sitting in stop start traffic or being gridlocked. Read the context. Maybe you don't have this problem. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[Cobra]

I'm old enough to have learned to drive (at least in my country we had to take a test both practical and theoretical) without power steering and abs and the likes.

I'm Quite surprised that no one actually bit at my post. Instead you just went on to relate my own experiences. Apart from there wasn't a separate theory test (in the UK at least) when I took my test, and some cars had optional heaters too, the days when men were men

 

[Nod]

Not sure many people would know about double de-clutching let alone be able to do it these days! Like some others, I didn't do a theory test - we were just asked pertinent questions as we drove round doing the practical test (including a couple of less common road signs). Didn't do my bike test until a few years later by which time that was a 2 parter - part 1 off road (as in a car park not a muddy field!) to demonstrate basic handling and competence followed by a road based test. I was in the short interlude before they introduced the accompanied test.
As I've said before, there's little real fun left in driving (on the roads) but there are worse places to be sat than in traffic (down here at least there are some nice views!) depending on the car. Heaters were for poofs! (As were roofs, PAS, servo assist brakes [in fact, brakes that worked properly!], comfort, wind down windows, locks...)

 

[Cobra]

PAS, servo assist brakes [in fact, brakes that worked properly!], comfort, wind down windows, locks...)

Ah yes, the real optional extras

 

[cocjh1]

Whilst the technology is probably here today, there's a lot of legal wranglings to sort out before driverless cars become available to the public. For instance who is to blame if a driverless car hits a pedestrian? The obvious answer is still the driver, but maybe it's now the OEM, or brake manufacturer, or camera/radar manufacturer, or tyre fitter.. Lovely idea, but very difficult to bring to market..

 

[Llamaman]

Whilst the technology is probably here today, there's a lot of legal wranglings to sort out before driverless cars become available to the public. For instance who is to blame if a driverless car hits a pedestrian? The obvious answer is still the driver, but maybe it's now the OEM, or brake manufacturer, or camera/radar manufacturer, or tyre fitter.. Lovely idea, but very difficult to bring to market..

Legislators are alert to this and already working on it. Likewise, insurers and reinsurers are already working out how to price up the risk.

It's going to happen, and people need to get used to it rather than tilting at windmills.

 

[Cobra]

It's going to happen, and people need to get used to it rather than tilting at windmills.

Perhaps it will but its gonna be quite a few years yet, before it becomes common place, in the interim trial periods they will just be a bloody nuisance, There is so much legislation that need to be sorted out, the insurance companies need to find the best way to rip off the robot cars,
The police, how the hell are they going to make money out of the speed cameras now?
They'll be gutted for sure,
I doubt we'll see them in daily use for at least 20 years,
So I sharn't worry about it for 19 years

 

[nilagin]

All possible to perform remotely with the right investment. Sure I appreciate you can't do that tomorrow, there will have to be put in place enabling technology but none of what you've mentioned cant be done remotely. And most of what you've mentioned can be done with current technological capabilities.

And it will then provide plenty of time to meet up with your mates.

You obviously have no idea what an engine test cell looks like if you think all those tasks can be performed remotely. There are at least 20 thermocouple cables running from a boom to various points on the engine, coolant pipe work to the water pump, pipe work to the intercooler as well as cooling heating pipes to the same, heating/ cooling pipes to the oil cooler, Pressure transducer pipework to a separate boom, a loom that has to be fed through and under the inlet manifold, all hard enough to negotiate when fitting anything on the engine when there in person let alone trying to do it all remotely by what ever means you have imagined. Plus the computer systems have a habit of crashing, requiring a complete system shutdown and reboot of all 4 computers at once. This can be a lengthy process taking anything from 1hr to sometimes a couple of days. If my remote computers crash, who is going to get them running again as quick as possible? At least at work there is always someone on hand to try and fix it. What you are proposing would be a massively expensive logistical uneconomic nightmare. I reckon the cost would be 100's of millions of dollars to install everything to even try to allow remote operation. Money the company would not be able to get back without increasing the cost of cars as it wouldn't improve or speed up testing in anyway, so it would never be cost effective.

 

[nilagin]

Wrong. Which is why I previously posted here about go-kart tracks for recreation. Some even get a kick out of knowing a clever way to avoid gridlocked spots. And beating the rush.
Some people I work with like driving too. But with no parking spaces, and heavy traffic, they choose the underground.

But I enjoy my journeys to and from work. The only thing that bugs me about getting stuck in traffic is being late, so I always make time allowances for such times and at least I'm always in my own car. I can't abide public transport, can't remember the last time I had the displeasure of using it.

 

[nilagin]

Nearly forgot, one of the best bits about going to work is walking through the fleet workshop or one of the internal car parks and having a peak at all the top secret test vehicles. Get to see a lot of new vehicles long before the public and media get to know about them.

 

[dejongj]

You obviously have no idea what an engine test cell looks like if you think all those tasks can be performed remotely. There are at least 20 thermocouple cables running from a boom to various points on the engine, coolant pipe work to the water pump, pipe work to the intercooler as well as cooling heating pipes to the same, heating/ cooling pipes to the oil cooler, Pressure transducer pipework to a separate boom, a loom that has to be fed through and under the inlet manifold, all hard enough to negotiate when fitting anything on the engine when there in person let alone trying to do it all remotely by what ever means you have imagined. Plus the computer systems have a habit of crashing, requiring a complete system shutdown and reboot of all 4 computers at once. This can be a lengthy process taking anything from 1hr to sometimes a couple of days. If my remote computers crash, who is going to get them running again as quick as possible? At least at work there is always someone on hand to try and fix it. What you are proposing would be a massively expensive logistical uneconomic nightmare. I reckon the cost would be 100's of millions of dollars to install everything to even try to allow remote operation. Money the company would not be able to get back without increasing the cost of cars as it wouldn't improve or speed up testing in anyway, so it would never be cost effective.

You haven't got the foggiest what I know and don't know and have experience with. However that is totally irrelevant anyway and really not productive for the discussion around this topic.

All you are highlighting, in my opinion, is a total lack of imagination. And not just that also an unawareness of what is already possible today and used with many. In order to get this one must think ahead. At the moment you come across like protesting against it and purely contributing reasons why something cant be done, likely based on your own experience. Once that energy gets transformed to thinking about how it could be done then maybe we can move this discussion forward.

 

[dejongj]

Nearly forgot, one of the best bits about going to work is walking through the fleet workshop or one of the internal car parks and having a peak at all the top secret test vehicles. Get to see a lot of new vehicles long before the public and media get to know about them.

Now use that energy and think of the many on here who work at facilities where they couldn't even mention what they get up too

The world is a big and interesting place.

 

[Cobra]

and think of the many on here who work at facilities where they couldn't even mention what they get up too

I could tell you but .... Well you know the rest

 

[nilagin]

You haven't got the foggiest what I know and don't know and have experience with. However that is totally irrelevant anyway and really not productive for the discussion around this topic.

All you are highlighting, in my opinion, is a total lack of imagination. And not just that also an unawareness of what is already possible today and used with many. In order to get this one must think ahead. At the moment you come across like protesting against it and purely contributing reasons why something cant be done, likely based on your own experience. Once that energy gets transformed to thinking about how it could be done then maybe we can move this discussion forward.

But I enjoy what I do, I enjoy physically working on the engines, why would I want to do that remotely whilst sat at home.
For 30 odd years I was a press toolmaker, making press tools work and producing panels. Whilst in latter years they would provide us with computer simulations of what to expect when a panel is drawn from a flat sheet of steel, there is no way that actually getting it to physically work could be done by remote and invariably I could make the press tool produce a better panel than the simulation had envisaged.
There's loads of Ford's, Jaguars, Mazdas, Land Rovers all with panels that I've had a hand in perfecting, even in some cases had a bit of poetic license in some of it. Stuff that I can say, I did that and all by working with my hands, now I'm doing the same with engines, something that just wouldn't feel right sat away from it at home. It's like going to Silverstone or Rockingham, yes the racing may be good, but you are so far away and detached from the racing the atmosphere and enjoyment just isn't the same. All it would ever result in if it became possible is unemployment.

 

[nilagin]

Now use that energy and think of the many on here who work at facilities where they couldn't even mention what they get up too

I only mention snippets of what I get up to. I could lose my job if I mentioned more.

 

[nilagin]

This is a relatively uncluttered engine dyno compared to what ours are like. There would be no room for any sort of remote controlled robot or what ever you have in mind, to change oil, filters, clutches, engines components, calibrate the dyno, check the dyno is maintained properly etc.

(Don't worry photo not taken at work)

 

[dejongj]

I could tell you but .... Well you know the rest

You and your knowledge of chemicals and dangerous animals....you are on the top of the watchlist of any agency in any country

 

[dejongj]

But I enjoy what I do, I enjoy physically working on the engines, why would I want to do that remotely whilst sat at home.
For 30 odd years I was a press toolmaker, making press tools work and producing panels. Whilst in latter years they would provide us with computer simulations of what to expect when a panel is drawn from a flat sheet of steel, there is no way that actually getting it to physically work could be done by remote and invariably I could make the press tool produce a better panel than the simulation had envisaged.
There's loads of Ford's, Jaguars, Mazdas, Land Rovers all with panels that I've had a hand in perfecting, even in some cases had a bit of poetic license in some of it. Stuff that I can say, I did that and all by working with my hands, now I'm doing the same with engines, something that just wouldn't feel right sat away from it at home. It's like going to Silverstone or Rockingham, yes the racing may be good, but you are so far away and detached from the racing the atmosphere and enjoyment just isn't the same. All it would ever result in if it became possible is unemployment.

It is great when you do what you love, absolutely. And don't worry I don't think it will change in your live time. So keep on rockin buddy. However there is no doubt with me that it wont last.

 

[nilagin]

It is great when you do what you love, absolutely. And don't worry I don't think it will change in your live time. So keep on rockin buddy. However there is no doubt with me that it wont last.

In all honesty I reckon I will see the end of the internal combustion engine anyway, not before I retire but certainly if I live to 84 like my Dad.

 

[Cobra]

You and your knowledge of chemicals and dangerous animals....you are on the top of the watchlist of any agency in any country

.

 

[Cobra]

n all honesty I reckon I will see the end of the internal combustion engine

It's certainly been around for a few years now. And despite the tweaks and add ons, it's changed very little. Up until recent times it would seem the oil companies have blocked any attempted to find alternate fuel sources but they do seem to have reached a compromise at the moment with the hybrids

 

[cocjh1]

Euro 7 and real world drive cycles (NEDC/WLTP) will force OEM's to fit more electric in cars. Starter generators etc.