Downlighters, baffled

DorsetDude

DorsetDude

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Sat doing the crossword last week when of the the three downlighters in the bathroom went out. Ok thinks I, bulbs gone. Been going for 4 years at least so to be expected. (the bulbs, not me doing the crossword)
Go to shop, buy some replacement halogen bulbs. They are the small conical type ones with 2 pins on the back.
Take out the old bulb and replace. Nada. Take out a bulb from one of the good ones, try bulb I just bought in there, bulb works ok. Take what I thought was the duff bulb and try in same good socket, nada.

So either the bulb and the wires to a small plastic connector both went kaput at the same time or I've lost the plot.

Any one any clues what to try next? I think a voltmeter might be worth trying across the terminals.

bulbs look like this:
led-bulb-spot.jpg

Have to be honest, I've no idea if the system is 240V or a 12v. But the bulbs I bought look exactly as bright when tried in a good socket.
 
I think these lights use some kind of transformer, so possibly that has failed.
One transformer usually does several lights
 
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Bit confused here Keith as surely the bulbs would say if they were 240v or 12v? If this is on the top floor then look in the loft and see what the fitments are. When I got my bathroom done a few years ago they fitted mains voltage downlighters and then had to pull away the loft insulation as the heat from the electrics was too much. I had 6 of them @ 50w each, so 300w every time the bathroom light was switched on. :eek::eek: Now replaced by low voltage LEDs and insulation back in place.
 
I thought the bulbs would say also, but both the one I pulled out and the pack I bought from sainsburys don't seem to mention the voltage.

sainsburys-halogen-light-bulbs.jpg
 
I had this happen it is the transformer that's gone you can pick up a spare from b& q
 
Hi Keith

They use a 12v transformer - I suspect this is what has failed - very easy to replace, just make sure you get the right size output transformer.

Have a look on the old transformer and it should say something like 20-60 or 20-105 as the output (so 2 20w bulbs you'd have the 20-60 or5 20w bulbs you'd ave the 20-105 transformer)

Here you go for examples http://www.screwfix.com/c/electrical-lighting/transformers/cat840844
 
wave01 said:
I had this happen it is the transformer that's gone you can pick up a spare from b& q
Click to expand...
Interesting. Is there a transformer for each downlighter then? I thought there would likely be one transformer feeding all 3? Or has one of the outputs on the transformer gone and then the whole thing needs replacing? Means I am going to have to go into the loft and wrestle with the 10" of fibreglass again, God I hate that.

Thanks wave01.

I am also wondering if the downlighter holders in the bathroom ceiling ought to be watertight or something. The ones currently in there are sort of eyeball things with a metal spring clip holding the bulb up inside.
 
DorsetDude said:
I thought the bulbs would say also, but both the one I pulled out and the pack I bought from sainsburys don't seem to mention the voltage.

View attachment 51925
Click to expand...

You need to make sure you get the same watt output of bulb you're replacing otherwise you will overload the transformer - on the bulb it should say 12v 20w for example

If you can't find any markings on any of them, hopefully it will be on the transformer and you can work backwards - so if you've 3 bulbs and a 20-60 transformer, then the max the bulbs will be is 20w each etc.
 
DorsetDude said:
Is there a transformer for each downlighter then? I thought there would likely be one transformer feeding all 3
Click to expand...

Yes, chances are 1 transformer for all 3 bulbs...

Dead easy to change - isolate the mains, and it's literally few screws.
 
Mine are in the bathroom. So similar it's one transformer to one light. All I can say is I have had two lights go one took out the transformer and one didn't so fifty fifty on what happens. Your problem is changing the transformer and how that is wired in. Good luck
 
Transformer has failed. Final answer ;)

I've been fixing some of these lately.

Rummage around with the wires in the ceiling space. Find the transformer per light then CUT IT OFF (um turn off power first, obvs). Get yourself some of these

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GU10-Cera...hash=item3ce4aa393f:m:mIm1WgjHTF-U0nHmjDMzdHA

and wire one in place of each transformer. Then swap your 12v LR14 bulbs for LED* GU10s which are exactly the same bulb but 240v instead of 12v. Pour yourself a beer (or other beverage) and congratulate yourself that you won't need to do anything for another 10 years or so. And also that you're saving 90% of the electricity.


-----
* if you hate LEDs then go for Halogen GU10s but you won't save all that money.....
 
Interesting thought on the 240v LED's. Does mean lifting more fibreglass and doing more work so have to see what Ive got up there first. If Ive got one transformer per bulb, I'll probably stick with that for ease. Also I avoid ebay like the plague so would need to get those fittings form somewhere else.
 
You're going to have to rummage around anyway because your transformer has blown. So you can either buy a new transformer, take out the old and put the new in of buy a fly lead, get rid of the old transformer and replace it with the new lead. It will be about the same amount of work either way but a fair bit cheaper to swap to GU10 (mains) and in the long run will save you more blown trannies ;) If a GU10 goes you swap the bulb. If an LR14 goes it's either the bulb or back into the loft to replace the transformer. GU10 LEDs are also easier to find in cheap bulk packs at Toolstation.

You can stick with LR14s (12V) and swap to LEDs but the bulbs are slightly harder to source / more expensive.

You can buy those fly leads at pretty much any decent LED supplier e.g. http://www.energylightbulbs.co.uk/products/gu10-mains-lead-240v-connector
 
Swapping out the bulbs for mains voltage LEDs makes a lot of sense. First transformers always burn out after a few years, so your others are probably already on borrowed time. Secondly LEDs only use 10% of the power and they last for donkeys years. Get a decent make though, not the Wickes or Screwfix cheapo ones, they're not great quality and they can buzz.....really irritating!
 
Just to say that all wiring should be over (not under) fibreglass insulation to prevent overheating and all downlighters should have a suitably fire rated fitting or a smoke hood to prevent fire and smoke spreading between floors or into roof space. (Rare to find these, but watch out, legislation is on its way, but personally I would do int for my own safety not because some legislators has deemed it necessary).
 
DorsetDude said:
got a screwfix near me, looking like these might work.

http://www.screwfix.com/p/luceco-gu10-gz10-lampholder-50w/3751h?_requestid=108097
Click to expand...

Should do if there's space to fit it.

shreds said:
Just to say that all wiring should be over (not under) fibreglass insulation to prevent overheating and all downlighters should have a suitably fire rated fitting or a smoke hood to prevent fire and smoke spreading between floors or into roof space. (Rare to find these, but watch out, legislation is on its way, but personally I would do int for my own safety not because some legislators has deemed it necessary).
Click to expand...

Am I right in thinking the 240v will have fewer problems with heating than the 12V? Those transformers seem to get awfully hot. One of them had melted the cable insulation in my kitchen.
 
Transformers are regrettably responsible for a lot of house fires. Many people assume that a 12v supply will be a lot safer than a 240v one and less likely to catch fire which is a fallacy, given that the transformer is stepping down the voltage and generating heat in the process. Keep them clear of anything that might insulate them or that is easily flammable.

Lofts are usually full of highly inflammable cardboard boxes and household junk that has not yet made it to the bin or the charity shop.
 
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JonathanRyan said:
Transformer has failed. Final answer ;)

I've been fixing some of these lately.

Rummage around with the wires in the ceiling space. Find the transformer per light then CUT IT OFF (um turn off power first, obvs). Get yourself some of these

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GU10-Cera...hash=item3ce4aa393f:m:mIm1WgjHTF-U0nHmjDMzdHA

and wire one in place of each transformer. Then swap your 12v LR14 bulbs for LED* GU10s which are exactly the same bulb but 240v instead of 12v. Pour yourself a beer (or other beverage) and congratulate yourself that you won't need to do anything for another 10 years or so. And also that you're saving 90% of the electricity.


-----
* if you hate LEDs then go for Halogen GU10s but you won't save all that money.....
Click to expand...

Yeah our new extension is being fitted with the LED spotlights, 10 year guarantee and you just change the whole unit when they go. They look really nice.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
Yeah our new extension is being fitted with the LED spotlights, 10 year guarantee and you just change the whole unit when they go.....
Click to expand...
.....If you can get the same unit in 10 years time, which may not be guaranteed.

We're just about to fit out a new extension and that's one thing that bothers me. LEDs are still fairly new for mainstream residential applications, and the technology has been evolving rapidly. I'm not sure how much confidence I gave in their replaceability.
 
StewartR said:
.....If you can get the same unit in 10 years time, which may not be guaranteed.

We're just about to fit out a new extension and that's one thing that bothers me. LEDs are still fairly new for mainstream residential applications, and the technology has been evolving rapidly. I'm not sure how much confidence I gave in their replaceability.
Click to expand...

Yes, agree with this - look at the fluorescent GU10's that were the replacement for the halogen bulbs - a mate has around 20 in a few of the rooms in his house, the odd one has failed, he gets a replacement and it's a different light (even though it's supposed to be the same temp light) and now he's looking to replace all of them with LED versions...I just think his issues may re-occur in a year or 2...
 
Up in the loft last night, sure enough one transformer per bulb. The person who installed the downlighters has just used twin core cable daisy chained between three 4-blocks of "chocolate block" type connector like these:
connector_block.jpg

The opposites side/screws of this connector is used to wire in the two leads from the transformer. This seems a tad dodgy to me as it is just bare, no tape or anything around these connectors.

Went to Wickes to try and get 240v gu10 fittings but no luck. Will try screwfix today for the leads. It will be simple to fit the new connectors if they have 2 leads coming off them as I could just wire them straight into the blocks as the preceding person had done with the transformers. Is there a better way to make it a bit more safe though? @JonathanRyan

Cheers
 
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Yep, just tape it up with some red electrical tape.

LED bulbs come in at different wattages. 4 or 4.5 are probably as bright as you need.
If it is too bright change them for 3.5w, not bright enough go to 5w
 
Whatever the LED equivalent of 35w would be.. Probably try 4W. If I can source the friggin connector leads. screwfix showing out of stock on the ones I linked earlier. Would ideally want to get them today.
 
DorsetDude said:
Up in the loft last night, sure enough one transformer per bulb. The person who installed the downlighters has just used twin core cable daisy chained between three 4-blocks of "chocolate block" type connector like these:
View attachment 52052

The opposites side/screws of this connector is used to wire in the two leads from the transformer. This seems a tad dodgy to me as it is just bare, no tape or anything around these connectors.

Went to Wickes to try and get 240v gu10 fittings but no luck. Will try screwfix today for the leads. It will be simple to fit the new connectors if they have 2 leads coming off them as I could just wire them straight into the blocks as the preceding person had done with the transformers. Is there a better way to make it a bit more safe though? @JonathanRyan

Cheers
Click to expand...
Some of these?
 
Phil V said:
Some of these?
Click to expand...
Yes theyd be perfect. I'm beginning to think of getting my electrician in and getting it all done properly now. He can make sure the fire box stuff is done as well then. Let him go up there and cough his guts up with all the fibreglass.
 
Keith, is the cable not long enough to pull the transformer down through the hole where the light fitting is? Only mentioning it because one of our was replaced this way & saved going into the loft.
Otherwise, yep.............get a sparkie in amongst the scratchy stuff. :D
 
OldCarlos said:
Keith, is the cable not long enough to pull the transformer down through the hole where the light fitting is? Only mentioning it because one of our was replaced this way & saved going into the loft.
Otherwise, yep.............get a sparkie in amongst the scratchy stuff. :D
Click to expand...
Actually they're designed to be able to do this, there's not always a loft, sometimes they're in a ceiling void.
 
DorsetDude said:
Up in the loft last night, sure enough one transformer per bulb. The person who installed the downlighters has just used twin core cable daisy chained between three 4-blocks of "chocolate block" type connector like these:
View attachment 52052

The opposites side/screws of this connector is used to wire in the two leads from the transformer. This seems a tad dodgy to me as it is just bare, no tape or anything around these connectors.

Went to Wickes to try and get 240v gu10 fittings but no luck. Will try screwfix today for the leads. It will be simple to fit the new connectors if they have 2 leads coming off them as I could just wire them straight into the blocks as the preceding person had done with the transformers. Is there a better way to make it a bit more safe though? @JonathanRyan

Cheers
Click to expand...

I think these are the preferred replacements for the white connectors.

http://www.screwfix.com/p/debox-in-line-connector-box/8692H?kpid=8692H

Having said that, the ones I swapped had an enclosed connector for the 12v side. I just wired the 240 with an earth into that and kept all the wires tidy.
 
OldCarlos said:
Keith, is the cable not long enough to pull the transformer down through the hole where the light fitting is? Only mentioning it because one of our was replaced this way & saved going into the loft.
Otherwise, yep.............get a sparkie in amongst the scratchy stuff. :D
Click to expand...
Mine are fitted like this, pull transformer and connector through the hole and replace. We have some downstairs, which would entail pulling up floorboards otherwise
 
mark richards said:
dont worry about the block connectors, there is only 12v power so they are ok...
Click to expand...
from the description it seems that it's 240v at the connectors.
DorsetDude said:
Up in the loft last night, sure enough one transformer per bulb. The person who installed the downlighters has just used twin core cable daisy chained between three 4-blocks of "chocolate block" type connector like these:
...
Click to expand...
 
Phil V said:
from the description it seems that it's 240v at the connectors.
Click to expand...
Yes, the connectors are on the opposite side to the bulb as it were, i.e pre-transformer.
 
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Actually, depending on the transformers, they might not be suitable for LEDs.

I bought some similar for the bathroom, but by the time I got to fit them (long story) I decided to buy LED lamps. When I wired them up they wouldn't light.

A bit of Internet research suggested that it was because there was insufficient current draw from the LEDs. I ended up with 5 spare transformers, as one of mine is suitable for all 6 LED lamps and they can't be used individually.
 
mark richards said:
hope that i have not missed anything, but these are for 240v only...12v are pushed in wire type ends only..
Click to expand...

Yes. I believe the plan is to remove the transformer and wire one of those lampholders into 240V. Then use GU10 instead of LR14.

DorsetDude said:
If I can source the friggin connector leads.
Click to expand...

eBay :D

Just swapped some 35w LR14s for these - seem a good match for power.

http://www.screwfix.com/p/lap-gu10-led-lamp-346lm-5w-pack-of-5/3797g
 
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