Donna Nook - 21st/22nd November

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plxpwm

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Donna Nook is one of my very favourite wildlife photography destinations. This weekend was the fifth weekend I have spend at the colony over the last three years.

I vividly remember the first two days I spend at the colony in 2007. I had been told about the two different colonies; the beach and the dunes colony, but expected neither to be as good as they were, photography or pure experience wise.

In terms of the dunes, I expected the seals to be much further from the fence than they were and they were packed in a lot more tightly than I expected. I did see one photographer cross the newly-installed double fence into the sanctuary in an attempt to get closer than the seals but after a stern word he stopped. Luckily, I have not seen this behaviour since in my further 4 visits.

The beach colony seemed, if anything, even better. Seals packed tens deep for thousands of meters down the beach was the order of the day. With a generous helping of caution and respect, in the form of an hour long crawl to the side of the colony, photographers could get about 5 meters from completely unconcerned seals.

In these perfect photographic conditions, and despite the bad weather, I bagged many of what were my best shots at the time. The following year (2008) the experience was repeated over two weekends, firmly cementing Donna Nook as one of my top locations.

Now things have changed.

Arriving at Sunrise on Saturday the 7th of November I was full of optimism. On my previous three visits the weather had ranged from dire to bad, but this weekend the light seemed perfect.

Myself and my two colleagues arrived at the beach colony just before sunrise finding more seals than we had ever seen at the site before, packed in for over a mile down the beach.

We unpacked our bags a good distance from the colony and proceeded to crawl along the shore to the edge of the colony. After about 45 minutes we were around 10 meters from a few completely unconcerned seals; some of whom were even moving towards us. We were bagging good shot after good shot and perfectly happy with our exploits. Soon this changed.

We glanced back towards the car park and saw wave after wave of photographers heading towards the colony. The colony is easily large enough to accommodate the whims of many sensible photographers. Unfortunately, these photographers did not act sensibly. A crowd of around five photographers instantly descended upon our position walking at speed. Unsurprisingly, the seals instantly vanished leaving the seals stressed and us red faced with a group of completely unrepentant photographers who seemed completely surprised at our anger.

This scene was repeated again and again over the weekend, only relenting when the majority of the photographers left before sunset and before they arrived after sunrise.

Even this did not prepare us for the farce that was this weekend.

On Saturday, we arrived before sunset and again headed down to the end of the colony. This was even more important this time as there was a large number of newborn pups within the colony.

After a morning's successful shooting where we were relatively undisturbed by photographers we headed down the colony at a safe distance on our way back to the burger van. Where previously there had been thousands of seals, now all that was left were the newborn pups and their distressed mothers, snarling at the assembled photographers that were completely surrounding their position, often stood up as close as a meter away using flashes in their faces. If anything is more of a recipe for pup abandonment, I have no idea what it is.

The scene was repeated on Sunday despite us walking down the beach and pointing out to any photographer we could find acting up exactly what the consequences of what they were doing was. Almost all responded rudely and continued what they were doing.

At the end of the weekend, I spoke to Rob Scott - the head warden. This year a completely unprecedented number of seal pups have been abandoned this year by mothers either unable to find their pups after being chased away by photographers, or mothers who have rejected their pups after detecting human smells on them.

I wish I could say that this was a problem affecting a minority of photographers, but in my opinion this was simply not the case. I dont know whether this was because very few of the photographers present this year have been before, or because those that had been before saw others behaving badly and assumed they were able to do the same; if you hide among a crowd of badly behaving photographers, then you can say "its not just me sir".

Since this, myself and another member of talk photography (BobbyBlue) have attempted to point this out only to be met with assurances from every member that they are "on our side". Funny that.

I hope this has made a lot of you think.

I will be posting photographic examples of bad behaviour on this thread as soon as I get back on a computer with these on.

Regards.

Peter
 
Not being there and so not able to comment on the behaviour of photographers on site I would think this should be a matter for the wardens to sort out if they see anyone acting in a way to harm or put at risk any seals in the colony. There will always be the few that spoil it for the many and if this behaviour continues maybe there will be action taken on these photographers you mention. I would imagine that to see such an awesome sight for the first time may make some people scramble for a great photograph and forget the welfare of the seals.

I don't think that because a number of novice photographers approach your hiding place and frighten the seals off that you can claim the moral high ground. If you have shots showing photographers harassing the seals you should maybe send them off to the national’s maybe pressure from the public would ban all photographers from the beach. Yourself and BobbyBlue included. I have seen posts by BobbyBlue attacking members of this forum unjustifiably in my opinion. Seems to me you get your good shots of the seals in the morning then spend the rest of your day exposing the failings of other photographers.

If you feel so strongly about their behaviour try educating them! Print out some fliers with some basic guidelines. You are not going to stop photographers from visiting but could help to make them aware of what they could be causing through their actions. I look forward to being disturbed by your photos taken on the beach alongside the very people that you are aggravated about!
 
I'd just like to mention at this point, this is obviously a very emotive subject. Before you post please just ensure that your post is worded with consideration to the spirit of Talk Photography :) Thanks, as you were......
 
Point noted Grendel! :)

Unfortunately CGeezer, having spoken to the wardens I am afraid it is a problem they are quite simply unable to sort out.

The site is owned by the RAF and they and they alone have juristiction on the site. They are more concerned with preventing photographers reaching the beach during bombing periods (understandable) than protecting the seals.

The wardens only have the power of suggestion and the pseudopower of being seen to have power while wearing a big yellow jacket. Not only this, but they only have the man power (it is a volunteer organisation) to patrol the dunes colony - not the more fragile beach colony.

They have erected a sign at the entrance of the beach strongly suggesting that photographers do not go to the beach colony, and often have a warden at this sign asking large groups not to go onto the beach. Apparently, many rudely disagree.

However, myself and the two photographers I was with have offered to join their force whenever we are at the site to patrol the beach colony and they have started a process to get this underway. Secondly, after hearing our concerns one of the wardens should be patroling the beach from now on.

As for how I will use the photographs of photographers harassing seals, I already have two idea (your ideas are also very good and I shall try them both). Firstly, i will be sending the photographs to the Lincolnshire Wildlife Trust via the head warden in an attempt to get them to converse with the RAF.

I will also be sending the photographs directly to the RAF themselves to show that some photographers would prefer themselves being banned from the beach than being allowed, along with a destructive horde of photographs, onto the beach.

Thank you for your concern.
 
Peter, whilst I fully sympathise with your frustration at such behaviour I feel a couple points should be raised.

Firstly, you make your statement sound like it was specifically TP photographers that acting improperly. Now whilst I can neither defend nor condemn anyone that visited the colony this weekend, as I wasn't there, I wonder if this was the case, or whether it was a general thing. If the former and you have evidence of such, fair enough. If the latter, then you are going the right way about alienating everyone, including the sensible ones.
Which leads me onto my next point - causing a 'virtual' riot may have little if any effect - on the other hand, being informative and trying to educate people, as already suggested by John above, might just achieve your desire. proactive rather then reactive, starting here, rather than posting in such a way that appears to accuse all and sundry.

Finally, as regards "a completely unprecedented number of seal pups have been abandoned by mothers" - this is merely curiosity on my part - you say yourself that the colony has grown enormously over the 3 years you have been going there, so regardless of the reasons behind abandonment, surely on statistics alone, a greater number of seals would mean a greater number of abandonments. I would also like to know how the wardens can be sure of the causes? Seriously. How is this worked out?
If the problem is so great in regards to people being around, why is something not being done about it rather than it being left to interested bystanders such as yourself?


Edit: we cross posted, and you have answered some of my points, but the rest still stand ;)
 
Hi Peter,

Thanks for your post and your concern, as I have said it is good to know at least one other person shares my concerns.

I am a Zoologist and trained Marine Mammal Medic. I feel I have the knowledge and expertise to agree with and add to what has already been said above.

Previous posts I have made may have been said in a flippant or aggressive manner. I apologize for this, I was angry and I feel I had every right to be, at least on behalf of the seals at Donna Nook.

This was my first time at Donna Nook, I had heard and read a lot about it. I was excited. I had been told the weather was not great but it was worth it. I too was taking between 30-60mins to get close to seals.

In particular I got close to a seal that was naturally abandoned by its mother (they get abandoned between 2-5 weeks having been weened). I was getting nice wide-angle shots (I may post later) of the seal, it was relaxed and 'sunbathing'. All of a sudden the seal got very aggressive and started lunging towards me. I thought I was encroaching on its personal space and retreated quickly.

At this time I was very angry with myself, I had entered into the realm of what had disgusted me throughout my visit, what Peter was talking about above...

...that was until I turned round...

...approximately 7 people were about 1 meter away from my feet, I was then not surprised at the angry and aggressive seal. I bit my tongue and left the area as quickly as the people approached. It was the start of a very bad weekend.

My experience was almost identical to Peters. Not only that the replies to my messages on this forum have had the same response as Peters.

'Oh that wasn't me'

and/or

'I never saw anything like that'

That is quite simply untrue in MOST cases, I'm sorry but it is. Please see photos (If they are not there they will be soon).

I have two requests for photographers going out to Donna Nook:

1/ please read, email or phone the Marine Life Rescue people and ask how close you can get to a seal, a seal pup, and a pup and mother. You will realize how much you (and I) are getting away with and how much damage we, as photographers are doing.

2/ If you are one of the few that has not been involved in the antics explained above by Peter then please please please tell the photographer what they are doing. If you do really care about these seals. If you want to come back next year and the year after then stop this, help stop it. The seals themselves will soon ban photographers from going on to the beach.

How? They will not come back. It is the first year, according to the wardens that seals have been killed by photographers, seals are being abandoned because of US, fact.

website: http://www.bdmlr.org.uk/

Contact:

British Divers Marine Life Rescue
Lime House, Regency Close
Uckfield, East Sussex
TN22 1DS
United Kingdom

Email: info@bdmlr.org.uk

Please do not phone unless it is an emergency

I will from this day be campaigning to get Donna Nook seal colony a restricted access area. The photographers have shot themselves in the foot.
 
Hi Yv, sorry for the cross posting!

Apologies for making it sound as if it was only TalkPhotography members acting improperly. This certainly was not the case, although many were. I have evidence of a professional wildlife photography tour operator standing by as his clients acted in a very similar way as well as many photographers who were presumably present by their own accord.

The colony is growing massively - the first seals pupped in the early 70s compared to this season where so far 842 have pupped in the dunes colony and 89 in the beach colony. However, I have to admit I did not question the wardens on their methods of determining the cause of abandonment - I simply accepted that this was the case as their response has been to try to prevent large groups from accessing the beach.

Also, the numbers are apparently MUCH greater than previous years and as such are certainly not natural. I think BobbyBlue mentioned 4 per day in a separate thread? Sorry if I am putting words into your mouth BobbyBlue!
 
I understand the RAF only permit access at the weekend, how do the seals feel about being used as a bomb range Mon-Fri ;)

Ok a flippant comment, but a valid point regarding our interaction with all wild creatures, sensitivity is required in al cases. In just the same manner that you can't lie alongside a railway line just to get that killer shot.
 
Yv said:
Finally, as regards "a completely unprecedented number of seal pups have been abandoned by mothers" - this is merely curiosity on my part - you say yourself that the colony has grown enormously over the 3 years you have been going there, so regardless of the reasons behind abandonment, surely on statistics alone, a greater number of seals would mean a greater number of abandonments. I would also like to know how the wardens can be sure of the causes? Seriously. How is this worked out?
Click to expand...

It is worked out subjectively, as Peter said the warden workforce is limited anyway. Any kind of survey would not be possible. I too spoke to the wardens, Andy in particular, he shared the same concerns as I did. He has been working at the colony since it first started in the 70s. He told me a similar thing to what Peter has said. To be honest I believe him. Granted, a scientific study would prove or disprove this but that is not possible. But surely if there is the smallest chance that this is true it should be worth considering and taken on board.

The causes for abandonment is true. It is common knowledge in any walk of life in nature. If and when humans get too close and their scent is left near young mothers will often abandon. Also if the mother can not return to their young and the young has died they will often mourn their young, I saw this on the beach on the weekend too.

Yv said:
If the problem is so great in regards to people being around, why is something not being done about it rather than it being left to interested bystanders such as yourself?
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'something' has to be started somewhere. Maybe it is here and now that it happens before the colony leave :thumbs:
 
bobbyblue said:
My experience was almost identical to Peters. Not only that the replies to my messages on this forum have had the same response as Peters.

'Oh that wasn't me'

and/or

'I never saw anything like that'

That is quite simply a lie, I'm sorry but it is. Please see photos (If they are not there they will be soon).
Click to expand...

And that is a very serious allegation and one you had better have proof for. Did you read Yv's post above? If you did then I suggest you read it again.
 
I'm sure we all feel the same on TP about the welfare of the seals and especially the pups. I saw the thread and would have loved to visit with the TP contingent although I'm not sure that I want to go in the future as the picture you paint is not a good one.

If I found a flier on my windscreen or read a post on the TP forum with the correct procedure on approaching or acceptable distance from the seals then I would take it in and follow those guidelines as I'm sure would the TP contingent.

I have always found the TP bunch to be quite friendly and if there was a meet next year then I'm sure a briefing at the start by either a warden, yourself or bobbyblue would be helpful and appreciated. It may be like you say that a photographer sees someone a meter away from the seals and thinks that if that is the case then he can also go to that same distance.

The main concern to me is that you have both recently joined TP and immediately go on the attack. This is not a good way to get your point across and in my opinion it would be far better to work with us as said previously. I realise that you are extremely concerned for the welfare of the seals, I am too and have only ever seen them in a zoo so the photos that I see of them in their natural habitat are especially good to see.

I'm on a rant
 
I am with you on the fact that the photographers should take more care in what they are doing. But you did mention that you had crawled to get closer to the seals. i was there last year and there is a security fence stoping people from doing that, so should i assume that you had crossed that fence to get there. Even though you did make sure you was taking care to get closer you still crossed the security fence **** is a big no no. Yes the people walking over did scare the seals and pups but how could they have known that you didn't do the same thing before they got there. In my oppinion as you did break the rules yourself i don't think you have the right to pul other members of TP down or any other photographer as you think that you are above them and the rules don't count for you.
 
plxpwm said:
MrGrubby.

These are your exact words
Click to expand...

I'm sorry have to reply to this, was going to stay out of it but feel I have to now, I was with mrgubby this weekend, and at know time was he using a wide angle for his shots, we had great respect for the seals, the quote you have posted comes from a thread unrelated to the seals and was a private joke from the weekend in reply to a post by me,

My experience from the wardens on Saturday was they they were not trying to encourage the photographers to stay of the beach but to head straight to the beach, this is what we were told by a warden in the car park first thing.

I do understand your points, but you are likely to alienate not raise support.
 
artyman said:
I understand the RAF only permit access at the weekend, how do the seals feel about being used as a bomb range Mon-Fri ;)

Ok a flippant comment, but a valid point regarding our interaction with all wild creatures, sensitivity is required in al cases. In just the same manner that you can't lie alongside a railway line just to get that killer shot.
Click to expand...

Hi Artyman,

You are quite right, it is a perfectly valid point and one I brought up with the wardens.

The range is around 10 miles wrong with the seals using perhaps as many of three miles of the beach. The RAF simply use targets in the furthest two miles of the range from the seals.

According to the wardens, the seals do not even wake up as chinooks and fighter jets fly a few hundred feet overhead.
 
Two things:

Firstly in reply to CGeezer:

CGeezer said:
The main concern to me is that you have both recently joined TP and immediately go on the attack. This is not a good way to get your point across and in my opinion it would be far better to work with us as said previously. I realise that you are extremely concerned for the welfare of the seals, I am too and have only ever seen them in a zoo so the photos that I see of them in their natural habitat are especially good to see.
Click to expand...

Surely anyones opinion is as valid as anyone elses, regardless of whether they are an established member of the forum? I did not join this site with the specific intention of starting this thread, but to find out about photography sites in my new locations. Talk Photography has been great for me in this respect. Can I just reiterate that I have nothing against the members of this site in particular.

Secondly, in reply to Kapawayna

kapawayna said:
i was there last year and there is a security fence stoping people from doing that, so should i assume that you had crossed that fence to get there. Even though you did make sure you was taking care to get closer you still crossed the security fence **** is a big no no. Yes the people walking over did scare the seals and pups but how could they have known that you didn't do the same thing before they got there. In my oppinion as you did break the rules yourself i don't think you have the right to pul other members of TP down or any other photographer as you think that you are above them and the rules don't count for you.
Click to expand...

There are two sections to the beach. First, the nursery section is a sanctuary and contains on one side a fence and on the sea-facing side has markers. I did not enter this section of the beach nor see any photographers doing so.

The beach colony is accessible without crossing the fence nor entering the sanctuary itself from the main car park (not the car park at the far end of the colony with the temporary toilets).
 
I feel strongly about seal welfare and have been visiting DN since 2006 and will do again this year. However, this is not the first year that pups have been abandoned by mothers and I am sure it is not the last.

There are many photographers who go there and do respect the seals but there are many who do not. I have seen instances of well known European wildlife photographers using flash and wide angles lenses at close range. I have also seen people without cameras out on the beach get too close to the seals. I still think one of the best approaches is education (and no I don't mean telling people what not to do and pointing fingers of blame) but rather training people how to behave.

Unless the RAF ban access (and that seems unlikely - especially with the proposed coastal path legislation) then people are going to visit and I think time could be better spent trying to positively re-inforce messages to people rather than stomping around.

The place has become a "honey pot" site for photography, to the point that people are flying in from the US and mainland Europe on organised trips to take photographs. I would really like to see boards up (there may be but there weren't in January) providing guidance for people on how to interact and behave around the seals. Most people who go to take photographs are probably not used to interacting with wild animals at close quarters - very few people in Britain are - and so information could well be useful.
 
i live in the village but have only ever gone to see the seals once. i guess its a case of because its on your doorstep you dont take much notice. i must get down to take pictures sometime though. dont worry, i wont behave like that. its common sense really isnt it?
 
plxpwm said:
There are two sections to the beach. First, the nursery section is a sanctuary and contains on one side a fence and on the sea-facing side has markers. I did not enter this section of the beach nor see any photographers doing so.

The beach colony is accessible without crossing the fence nor entering the sanctuary itself from the main car park (not the car park at the far end of the colony with the temporary toilets).
Click to expand...

Thanks for clearing that part up i have never been to that part. May i appologise if i did cause any offence to you then. I didn't see where you mentioned you was at the other section.:)
 
I was hoping to go to Donna Nook this coming weekend but I do feel a little concerned about visiting now.

If any finger-pointing could be put aside here, maybe the genuine concern shown by most people in this thread could be of beneficial use maybe by petitioning for there to be some kind of guidance to visitors.
 
Excellent idea Glo :thumbs:
 
kapawayna said:
Thanks for clearing that part up i have never been to that part. May i appologise if i did cause any offence to you then. I didn't see where you mentioned you was at the other section.:)
Click to expand...

No problem at all, no offence was caused :)
 
I think it would be a good idea for it only to be open to the public every other year, so to give the seals a chance for a year off from the public, to give them a better chance.
 
mrgubby said:
But the slightest sign of a lens & they abandon their Pups.......
Click to expand...

It is the difference between invading personal space and hearing a noise and seeing an 'aerial threat'.

My point:

Any animal can habituate to a sound or an object. If it occurs often enough, for example 5 days out of seven. A jet or large helicopter flying over the colony and causing no harm to them will indicate that the next time it happens the same will happen...no harm will be caused. Therefore they will not bat an eyelid.

Older seals in the colony will have habituated to people. The dune colony is a perfect example. Thousands of people go there, they don't get harmed and therefore will not run. Try putting a snail on a piece of glass, let it come out of its shell. When it is out and moving tap the bottom of the glass. It will retreat into the shell. Do this 10 or 20 and it will not bat an eyelid, it will have habituated to the sound and sight of your finger. If you hit the snail after 20 times it will retreat and will re-habituate to its original reaction. In regards to the seals and the RAF activities this is what is happening.

Regarding personal space: this is like your personal space. For example if I came up to you and tried to give you a kiss, you would not like it and you would decide (probably instinctively) where that personal space would be. 5meters or 5cm ;), a seal or any other animal is exactly the same. I got close to a seal through patients, it was too close (safety wise), I knew that, I also knew it was comfortable with my presence because it was not showing threatening behaviour or getting distressed. It may sound strange but singing helps. I found Bob Dylan was not good and lullabies were!

The personal space of any creature (photographers included) changes depending on approach. A slow crawl is different to a quick march. As is how you give someone a kiss and your chance of success, :nuts: .

I hope that made sense!
 
kapawayna said:
I think it would be a good idea for it only to be open to the public every other year, so to give the seals a chance for a year off from the public, to give them a better chance.
Click to expand...

Unfortunatly, there is a slight problem with this idea. The majority of grey seal mothers only give birth every other year so in this way we would be ruining the chances of "even yeared" or "odd yeared" seals.

Perhaps a ticketing system would work where the first 50 people to arrive each day, and only the first 50 people, could get to the beach colony.

Edit: just to clarifty, 50 is a pretty random number plucked from the air. Obviously, this number would have to be down to the wardens. To give you an idea of scale, I counted 80 photographers stood up on the beach around Sunday lunchtime. I would guess that this is gross underestimate of the numbers as many photographers would have been sat down, or lying down.
 
I "think" I would like to see the photos you mentioned earlier. Maybe they would help to increase awareness of the problem.
 
kapawayna said:
The ticketing system could work. perhaps that could be fetched up with the wardens.
Click to expand...

Or maybe a 20 ticket limit with one comes off and one goes on so as to keep disturbance to a minimum. :thinking:
 
CGeezer said:
Or maybe a 20 ticket limit with one comes off and one goes on so as to keep disturbance to a minimum. :thinking:
Click to expand...

I don't think the ticketing would work, I have read about people getting up at 2am (just an example) to see the seals. If you were that committed and didn't get a ticket you may just do something stupid to get the "shot"
 
But if a single one of those 20 or 50 were to be irresponsible then its a waste of time. Everyone has to agree not to go on the beach at all or the only other way is to have groups taken out with wardens or knowlegdeable persons and monitered/advised on how to behave.


Liams post may have just scuppered that idea...
 
I still think that education is as (more?) important as restricting numbers. If people have had little exposure to seals then they don't understand how to behave. The comment about singing is a good one. Sometimes, creeping up on an animal is more threatening than being cautious but open.

The media have a lot to take responsibility here. By promoting access to wildlife without raising some of the concerns, people aren't aware of what to think about. Steve Irwin was, of course, a great example but Springwatch had a segment on how to photograph kingfishers without mentioning Schedule 1 and the fact you need a licence to do so when they are nesting...

How many people here know the signs that a puffin is getting distressed?

Education is key. I wonder how much it would cost to put boards up at DN with some basic information to help guide people?

Sadly, all the Lincs Wildlife Trust says on its website is

•Strictly observe all red flag and other bombing range warnings.
•Don't get too close to the seals.
•Keep out of sanctuary areas.
•Never feed or pet the seals - even pups can inflict a nasty bite!
•No unaccompanied children.
•No dogs.
•Organised parties can be arranged via the Trust’s Coastal Warden, Rob Lidstone-Scott.
•There is a small car park at Stonebridge.
•Weekdays are the best time to visit; the narrow lanes and car park get very congested at weekends.
•Seals are pupping November to December.
Click to expand...

Too close isn't enough information. I'm sure they could put notes about approaching slowly, keeping low etc. In fact, they say don't touch seals as they may bite but don't mention they may get abandoned...

Ticketing will never work as the beach is accessible from many spots if you are willing to walk.
 
I have been to the area twice and always been very impressed with the public's conduct. I have not been out to the beach so cannot comment on that.

As for the comment about this weekend being the visit by TP that is absolute tosh.

I might hazard a guess and suggest there were maybe 10 -20 TP photographers there and those I met were very nice people. In addition to the TP photographers I would guess there were about 200 - 300 +++ other photographers. I did not see one photographer acting badly.

In addition to the 200 - 300 photographers I saw maybe 2000 - 3000+ visitors enjoying nature.

stew
 
artona said:
I have been to the area twice and always been very impressed with the public's conduct. I have not been out to the beach so cannot comment on that.

As for the comment about this weekend being the visit by TP that is absolute tosh.

I might hazard a guess and suggest there were maybe 10 -20 TP photographers there and those I met were very nice people. In addition to the TP photographers I would guess there were about 200 - 300 +++ other photographers. I did not see one photographer acting badly.

In addition to the 200 - 300 photographers I saw maybe 2000 - 3000+ visitors enjoying nature.

stew
Click to expand...


It is not directly aimed at the TP photographers, not by a long way. It is aimed at everyone on the beach this weekend. I has got a bit out of hand as people have started to take offense. I apologize for this.

Nice people, I am sure they are, the TP I spoke to were. Conduct ON THE BEACH not at the site where the wardens are posted, was bad. I just resizing pics now to demonstrate this.

It is a problem, not specifically aimed at TP, I knew there was a group going hence the reason I was talking her. I also posted her because I know a lot of people view this forum, and for very good reason. Its Good! The people are passionate and where else can I raise a topic such as this. Peter just beat me to it :-) y creating the thread, and that is great to see.

I think the count was 350 on the beach and around 6500 visitors at the viewing area. I would be glad to be corrected, my memory may have failed me.

Regards
 
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