Dogs on Death Row

[Spuff]

Did anyone see this programme on the beeb last night? It was a fairly run of the mill, fly on the wall documentary following the work of the police and enforcement of the Dangerous Dogs Act.

The way it was edited certainly seemed to reinforce the stereotype of the social "underclass" and their fondness for pitbull type breeds. But it had, I thought, an incredibly powerful and emotional ending with footage of a confiscated young dog being put down (whilst wagging its tail with the camera in its face ) followed by the obvious continued distress of the family of the young lad from Liverpool that was killed by his uncle's dog some time ago.

I'm not sure if it answered any questions about the wider issues of control of dogs but it was unexpectedly poignant for that type of program.

 

[cambsno]

Surely any 'dangerous' breed of dog should be licensed in the same way that firearms are. I guess it would be easy for a black market to exist though, so you need a proper punishment like 10 years prison if you break the law, as if there is a small fine and community service people will continue to break it.

It does tend to be the chavs who own this type of dog based on seeing them out.

 

[MartynK]

License people who want to keep pets, but not retrospectively. A basic competency test and a fee before you can 'own' an animal, with a discount if you have a veterinary certificate that the animal has been spayed/neutered.

 

[gman]

Licences and fees will only hurt the already responsible owners. The irresponsible ones will still take the risk and not bother, just like guns.

It's a shame when a dog suffers due to the stupid owner.

 

[Spuff]

Certainly from the cases shown last night, the owners didn't seem to care about the dogs at all. The dogs were either kept in gardens or in a filthy room indoors and never exercised. And the majority of the owners shown definitely came across as stupid.

 

[lizzy23]

I'm in the camp that believes theres no such thing as dangerous dogs, just dangerous owners, all dogs have teeth, all dogs can do damage, and i actually have the scars to prove it from a springer of all things that launched herself at me and mauled my arm, BSL is plain wrong and unenforceable, I have a staffi cross, he lives with 4 other dogs and loves everybody and everything, because we brought him up properly

 

[MartynK]

Licences and fees will only hurt the already responsible owners. The irresponsible ones will still take the risk and not bother, just like guns.
a shame
It's when a dog suffers due to the stupid owner.

No, I don't agree. The process doesn't have to be complicated or expensive, just enough to discourage spontaneous purchases and irresponsible ownership, and to try to reduce some of the cruelty, unwanted litters, and the number of abandoned animals.

Irresponsible people don't normally ignore the firearm laws, because the penalties are severe. Criminals don't care.

I fully agree that it's a "shame when a dog suffers due to the stupid owner", but I would add "or any other animal".

 

[Garry Edwards]

The Dangerous Dogs Act has been around for a while now, and as Pit Bull Terriers were required to be neutered under the provisions of the Act, any that are around have been bred illegally.

The Act was a very bad piece of panic legislation. It made the owners of 'fighting breeds' into criminals retrospectively, and it failed to allow the Courts any discretion. As a result, I remember a case of a someone who had a Pit Bull (neutered, licensed and muzzled as per the law) who, on hot day, took the muzzle off for a few moments to give her dog a drink. A police officer saw this, the dog was seized and later killed - the Courts sympathised but they had no discretion and the dog had to die.

One of the many problems with the Act is that Pit Bull Terriers are in fact a type of dog, not a recognised breed, because of this it's very difficult to tell whether or not a particular dog is a Pit Bull or not... the best indication is probably the type of owner Pit Bull Terriers are traded, they are described as "American type Staffordshires" and the drug dealers et al who buy them know what they are actually buying.

At about the same time as the Dangerous Dogs Act, a national newspaper The Sun ran a campaign to ban Rottweillers, they called them 'Devil Dogs'. At that time although I was working as a full time photographer I was also a problem dog trainer and 'The Sun' asked if they could interview me about 'Devil Dogs'. When I told them what I would say they said they would get back to me

I'm sympathetic if a dog is seized and killed, but the people who own these dogs know that it's illegal and they know what will happen if they get caught.

 

[gman]

The process doesn't have to be complicated or expensive

But it will be and it always is. If any process is made simple then it means they don't need as many self-serving bureaucrats to waste public money administering it.

Cars are more dangerous than dogs, despite all the legislation, purchasing costs, running costs and police action. But cars bring in a serious amount of cash for the Government so I guess it's acceptable.

 

[Mattwood]

I'm in the camp that believes theres no such thing as dangerous dogs, just dangerous owners, all dogs have teeth, all dogs can do damage, and i actually have the scars to prove it from a springer of all things that launched herself at me and mauled my arm, BSL is plain wrong and unenforceable, I have a staffi cross, he lives with 4 other dogs and loves everybody and everything, because we brought him up properly

+1 my folks have always owned larger dogs and have had several Rottweilers, now owning a Rottweiler and St.Bernard. These have been well brought up and loved animals. They have been fantastic with all my nieces and nephews and even my own children. They even looked out for them in public, putting themselves between the children/parents and strangers walking past. They played well with other dogs.

I myself have only ever had 1 dog of my own which was a staffordshire bull terrier. Again this dog would never go for anyone as it was not trained or brought up to do so. It would like nothing than to stay next to my sons side after he was born. Great dog breed just dumb owners who think they make them 'ard.

After witnessing a "chav" try to get a staffy to sit by kicking it, is it any wonder why they are vicious in such hands?

I've had worse bites off my cat than any of the dogs my family has owned!

 

[lizzy23]

hey they don't call Staffi's the nanny breed for nothing, although mine are all soft as brushes, i would use my commen sense around kids and not leave them unsupervised for any length of time, because like i said they all have teeth

 

[MartynK]

But it will be and it always is. If any process is made simple then it means they don't need as many self-serving bureaucrats to waste public money administering it.

Yes, I know, but that's more of a problem with the way government and local authorities have evolved, or the way a complaisant electorate have allowed them to behave. I'm not a great believer in regulation at all - I envy US citizens their 2nd Amendment rights - but I do feel strongly about animal care and I can't really see any alternative for as long as people are allowed to regard them as 'just' animals. I doubt if we're poles apart here anyway, as far as the objectives go.

 

[Mattwood]

hey they don't call Staffi's the nanny breed for nothing, although mine are all soft as brushes, i would use my commen sense around kids and not leave them unsupervised for any length of time, because like i said they all have teeth

Always keep an eye on them but no real need to worry.

St.Bernard is a comfy pillow!

 

[lizzy23]

Always keep an eye on them but no real need to worry.

St.Bernard is a comfy pillow!

My sister has a similar one of her stepdaughter, using her GSD as a pillow

 

[TheThistle]

Surely, it's the owners who are dangerous not the dog itself, IMO I hasten to add

 

[Gremlin]

No, I don't agree. The process doesn't have to be complicated or expensive, just enough to discourage spontaneous purchases and irresponsible ownership, and to try to reduce some of the cruelty, unwanted litters, and the number of abandoned animals.
Irresponsible people don't normally ignore the firearm laws, because the penalties are severe. Criminals don't care.
I fully agree that it's a "shame when a dog suffers due to the stupid owner", but I would add "or any other animal".

Haven't seen the programme yet, intend to watch it later.

But this topic of licencing has been discussed many times and even the powers that be agree that it will penalise the law abiding dog owners as there is not the resources to police it, so it won't discourage irresponsible ownership it will just mean the responsible ones will end up forking out more for their pets.

I'm in the same school of it being the owner rather then the dogs at fault but unforuntately that is never going to change whilst you get puppy farms and backyard breeders churning out cheap puppies with no thought for health or temperament
It really saddens me to see that since they Czech wolfdog was allowed into this country the puppy sites are full of various crosses of the breed, and selling them to all and sundry, it won't be long before they end up condemned the same as many other breeds

 

[Catdaddy]

A friend of mine had a lovely Rotty bitch. She's sadly no longer with us, as she had terminal cancer, but I remember when I first met her. Knocked on my mate's door and heard this monstrous barking, which made me a tad wary. But within minutes, the most danger I was in was of being flattened as she tried to climb on the sofa and sit on my lap.

They're a beautiful breed, as are most dogs, so I can only agree with others that say how they react to people is largely down to how well they're trained. I'd much rather have a larger dog like that than a Jack Russell or something like that...

 

[gatecrasher3]

Staffies are gorgeously kind and loyal with a huge desire to please. It's this desire to please that scum exploit to create their "accessory" that they hide behind as they are ultimately just cowards.

 

[Beardy]

The problem with Staffie's is the predominant demographic that owns them.....I know they're supposed to be great with kids but in my experience they're not great with other dogs. That may well be down to the owners but it is after all what they were originally bred for.

 

[staffitaxi]

I'm afraid I had a little cry at the end. Taped it last night and watched it earlier.

As someone who has probably helped re-home in the region of 2000 Staffordshire Bull Terriers I was pleasantly surprised that they didn't give the breed a good bashing. In fact Staffords were hardly mentioned at all.

I thought it showed a very sad view of life in general, people and dogs living in squalor.

Very few of the dogs they showed were nasty and they didn't try and make them out to be.

 

[ladysue]

I agree this was certainly a poignant programme and, although it didnt answer any questions it seemed well balanced. Seeing the dog put to sleep at the end was very sad but it showed that this is the reality for so many dogs, when it is the owners that are causing the problems.

 

[Yardbent]

this young lady appeared well in control of a loving family dog

but look at the weight difference..!

it would always worry me that the dog 'could/may' turn for some unknown reason

if i had children i personally would not have a dog

a young cousin was cornered and attacked by their family collie - so apologies if i am prejudiced

 

[Garry Edwards]

this young lady appeared well in control of a loving family dog

but look at the weight difference..!

it would always worry me that the dog 'could/may' turn for some unknown reason

if i had children i personally would not have a dog

a young cousin was cornered and attacked by their family collie - so apologies if i am prejudiced

Fair point, but there's another side too. What chance is there of anyone trying to harm a child who has a dog with them?

 

[Yardbent]

Fair point, but there's another side too. What chance is there of anyone trying to harm a child who has a dog with them?

a good point... especially that dog

 

[Gremlin]

a good point... especially that dog

Preconceived opinion, it's what bought the DDA into being originally.

All the rotties I know bar one are lovely, my little terrier croiss regularly runs off to play with couple, no one else will their dogs near them and yet they are well socialised and friendly, they live with a young child too.

Responsible ownership is what counts, not the breed of dog, some of the worst I have met have been Labradors and collies,

Watched the program on iplayer and thought it was well balanced, as the dog control guy said it's a shame that banned breeds can't have ownership transfered, Tyson the dog that was PTS could have been rehomed.
But the blame for that is still firmly on the woman, she was banned from keeping dogs an no doubt was real owner, she should never have tried to get round and got another dog

 

[Garry Edwards]

Preconceived opinion, it's what bought the DDA into being originally.

All the rotties I know bar one are lovely, my little terrier croiss regularly runs off to play with couple, no one else will their dogs near them and yet they are well socialised and friendly, they live with a young child too.

Responsible ownership is what counts, not the breed of dog, some of the worst I have met have been Labradors and collies,

Watched the program on iplayer and thought it was well balanced, as the dog control guy said it's a shame that banned breeds can't have ownership transfered, Tyson the dog that was PTS could have been rehomed.
But the blame for that is still firmly on the woman, she was banned from keeping dogs an no doubt was real owner, she should never have tried to get round and got another dog

Only up to a point. Back in the 80's rottenweilers were a real problem, partly because they were the chav dog of the day, owned by the wrong people, and partly because they were hugely popular so unscrupulous breeders could get away with selling pups with bad temperaments, hip displasia etc - which meant that a lot of these dogs were downright dangerous. I know, because I used to sort them out.

Before that, say the 70's, it was German Shepherds that were the chav dog of choice - these things go in cycles.

Collies are potentially poor pets. Rough collies are often nervous, again bred for the show ring with no thought given to temperament and border collies are bred for sheep. Sheep dogs normally work alone but try to make up for that by acting as a wolf pack - which is why they are constantly running around, trying to make a circle of wolves. What they want to do is to kill the sheep (and of course some of them do) but training stops most of them actually going in for the kill, most of the time. A collie with strong working instinct isn't therefore ideal pet material, it wants to hunt and kill. They are also highly intelligent, and can become frustrated and dangerous without work to do.

 

[lizzy23]

They are also highly intelligent, and can become frustrated and dangerous without work to do.

which comes back to unsuitable owners, in my experience, dogs rarely turn for no reason, in the 5 years i have been assesing springers i have only met three that i would say were'nt wired up right needless to say these three weren't rehomed.

They usually have issues because, they've not been taught right or wrong in their early lives, They are in pain ie the hip displacia you mentioned, or i do know of one that became aggressive that turned out to have a brain tumour, crap food is another i come across all the time, the dogs wired cos its been fed Bakers, its like giving blue smarties to a hyperactive kid in some breeds, or they are under exercised and under stimulated, its all about understanding the needs of the dog you own, and being a responsible owner.

 

[srichards]

What is also forgotten is that some kids get bitten because they torment the dog in the first place. Chav kids and chav dog owners are not a good combination.

 

[Gremlin]

Only up to a point. Back in the 80's rottenweilers were a real problem, partly because they were the chav dog of the day, owned by the wrong people, and partly because they were hugely popular so unscrupulous breeders could get away with selling pups with bad temperaments, hip displasia etc - which meant that a lot of these dogs were downright dangerous. I know, because I used to sort them out.

Think I said that about unscpulous breeders in an earlier post.
Oh and prior to that the only rotties most people saw were in horror films so that gave the wrong impression to those who hadn't ever seen or met one

 

[onona]

I'm in the camp that believes theres no such thing as dangerous dogs, just dangerous owners

I totally agree. While different dog breeds do have various genetic inclinations towards certain types of behaviour, a dog doesn't just randomly become vicious and attack people - violent behaviour is inevitably a result of violent treatment from the owner.

Let's not pretend that these young lads strutting around the neighbourhood with their pit bull type dogs are dog lovers - those dogs are status symbols, and are not treated with the care and attention they need. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen these chav gits kicking their dogs, yanking their leashes violently, and just generally treating the animal in a totally cruel manner. These people simply shouldn't be allowed to own animals.

Another thing they always do is neglect to have their dogs neutered. I guess the dog's balls are seen as part of the big alpha male testosterone display these chavs are so desperately trying to put on, so they're left un-snipped - this is highly irresponsible behaviour as it contributes to the problem of unwanted litters, which in turn adds to the burden in animal shelters and ends with the mass euthanasia of perfectly wonderful animals every single day.

 

[Garry Edwards]

I totally agree. While different dog breeds do have various genetic inclinations towards certain types of behaviour,

That has to be the understatement of all time - all dogs have been bred for specific types of work, so their behaviour is what it needs to be for that kind of work. Unfortunately, a lot (most?) people are either unaware of this or ignore it, they choose a dog based on it's size, or looks, as a fashion accessory, or on whether or not it moults - crazy.

violent behaviour is inevitably a result of violent treatment from the owner.

Usually, but not inevitably.

Let's not pretend that these young lads strutting around the neighbourhood with their pit bull type dogs are dog lovers - those dogs are status symbols, and are not treated with the care and attention they need. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen these chav gits kicking their dogs, yanking their leashes violently, and just generally treating the animal in a totally cruel manner. These people simply shouldn't be allowed to own animals.

Another thing they always do is neglect to have their dogs neutered. I guess the dog's balls are seen as part of the big alpha male testosterone display these chavs are so desperately trying to put on, so they're left un-snipped - this is highly irresponsible behaviour as it contributes to the problem of unwanted litters, which in turn adds to the burden in animal shelters and ends with the mass euthanasia of perfectly wonderful animals every single day.

 

[Cobra]

Another thing they always do is neglect to have their dogs neutered. I guess the dog's balls are seen as part of the big alpha male testosterone display these chavs are so desperately trying to put on, so they're left un-snipped - this is highly irresponsible behaviour as it contributes to the problem of unwanted litters, which in turn adds to the burden in animal shelters and ends with the mass euthanasia of perfectly wonderful animals every single day.

Thats a whole new argument regarding the effects of testosterone
(or lack of ) Verses behavioral problems,
and ultimately control.

Besides if the females on heat, were controlled
or spayed even, (but again thats convenience V Behavior ) there would be no need
for them to be snipped

 

[lizzy23]

Thats a whole new argument regarding the effects of testosterone
(or lack of ) Verses behavioral problems,
and ultimately control.

there maybe, certainly cured Fudges of his strutting with other Male dogs, Bitches should be spayed anyway its much better for them health wise

 

[Gremlin]

I hate this castration being a cure for all behavioural problems, all it cures is unwanted breeding,
If a dog has fear aggression problems castration and loss of testosterone can actually make it worse.
I'm female and have never yet had any of my dogs castrated and never had any of them produce a litter of pups, responsible ownership can prevent that.

 

[DavidMartin]

I have had dogs for years and as has already been said it is bad ownership that is the problem. I've had German shepherds, Rottweilers, St Bernard's and now gone to the other extreme of a miniature daschund.
In my opinion all dogs should be chipped, all,dogs in public places should be on a leash.
My daschund was attacked by two greyhounds when I was out with him and my wife. If I hadn't been there he would not be here now. My wife scooped him up and was attacked by one of the dogs whilst I was fighting the other. She ended up in a&e with bite marks on her face and neck. this happened on our local common.
Sorry if this upsets some people but no dog should be out in a public place without a lead on.

 

[lizzy23]

I hate this castration being a cure for all behavioural problems, all it cures is unwanted breeding,
If a dog has fear aggression problems castration and loss of testosterone can actually make it worse.
I'm female and have never yet had any of my dogs castrated and never had any of them produce a litter of pups, responsible ownership can prevent that.

In this dogs case it wasn't fear aggression, yes in a nervy dog it can make it worse and is not to be done lightly in a cocky dog who wants to prove he's a big boy it can and did make a difference, again it comes down to being able to read the individual dog

 

[Garry Edwards]

I hate this castration being a cure for all behavioural problems, all it cures is unwanted breeding,
If a dog has fear aggression problems castration and loss of testosterone can actually make it worse.
I'm female and have never yet had any of my dogs castrated and never had any of them produce a litter of pups, responsible ownership can prevent that.

One of the things that I hate is the practice of castrating pups. It stops them developing into adult dogs, stops them developing masculine qualities and leads to them being bullied by other dogs - so why is it done? If I was a cynic I might suspect vets of advising that it's done early so that they get the job, not another vet.

As for it being a cure for behaviour problems, it can help with some problems - but only to a very limited extent.

My daschund was attacked by two greyhounds when I was out with him and my wife. If I hadn't been there he would not be here now. My wife scooped him up and was attacked by one of the dogs whilst I was fighting the other. She ended up in a&e with bite marks on her face and neck. this happened on our local common.

You're just reinforcing what I said earlier. Greyhounds (or gaze hounds as they used to be called) are hunting dogs that chase and kill other animals, that what they were bred to do. They are typically perfectly OK with people but they will chase and kill any animal that looks like prey. They are a bad choice of pet dog.

Sorry if this upsets some people but no dog should be out in a public place without a lead on.

If you met my German Shepherd you'd realise that some dogs are perfectly safe without a lead.

 

[Gremlin]

In this dogs case it wasn't fear aggression, yes in a nervy dog it can make it worse and is not to be done lightly in a cocky dog who wants to prove he's a big boy it can and did make a difference, again it comes down to being able to read the individual dog

Not saying that it doesn't help in some cases, it's the castration cures all school of thinking that I hate, along with every problem being caused by dominence, different problems call for different cures

 

[Gremlin]

One of the things that I hate is the practice of castrating pups. It stops them developing into adult dogs, stops them developing masculine qualities and leads to them being bullied by other dogs - so why is it done? If I was a cynic I might suspect vets of advising that it's done early so that they get the job, not another vet.

Totally agree with that, early castration or speying shouldn't be allowed.
Docking is now illegal and yet speying a very young bitch pup isn't and by young I mean at a few weeks old

If you met my German Shepherd you'd realise that some dogs are perfectly safe without a lead.

I had one like that, far better off lead then on

 

[DavidMartin]

If you met my German Shepherd you'd realise that some dogs are perfectly safe without a lead.

The majority of dogs are ok as have been mine. My German Shepherd used to take himself for a walk on land next to my old house and sit at the back door when he'd had enough.