Does the 5d Mark 3 make you a better photographer?

[joescrivens]

It only acquires focus on the half press, but not again when full depressed. If you keep it half pressed when releasing then the AF is still locked. Try it for yourselves.

I've done this in the past, before i used bbf, personally i find it horrible. You have to constantly be conscious not to lift your finger up and having it half cocked all the time - how can that be easier that pressing a focus button once and then not having to touch it again through the entire shot sequence?

 

[arad85]

how can that be easier that pressing a focus button once and then not having to touch it again through the entire shot sequence?

I don't think it is, but if you want to leave your camera in standard mode and not use BBF because 99% of the time you prefer standard operation, it is a workaround which enables you to emulate BBF without removing focus start from the shutter button.

 

[joker2006]

So if you use bbf can it be used for continuous focus ie for sports, moving wildlife , motorsport etc or are we saying its more for portrait stuff?

 

[joescrivens]

So if you use bbf can it be used for continuous focus ie for sports, moving wildlife , motorsport etc or are we saying its more for portrait stuff?

yup it can be used for that too, and once again I find that much easier - bbf was made for servo. Keep your thumb depressed on the button and just snap away with your finger whenever you like.

Much more comfortable to hold a thumb against the af on that it is to keep your index finder half cocked all the time

 

[joker2006]

Looks like I may well be giving it a go then.
I think ill be searching on here later I did see a guide to setting it correctly for my d90 if I remember correctly

 

[gman]

One setting in the custom funtions I don't understand is where you can set the shutter button to AF and the back button as AF Lock? So you lock the focus but when you go to take the shot the shutter button unlocks the focus and refocuses! lol

 

[big soft moose]

But as said before you are then restricting your composition to one where a focus point HAS to be on the baby. You have less creative freedom. Plus you have to keep moving up and down with the baby and you have no idea the speed with each throw so could easily miss focus.

That's why bbf makes it easier.

yeah but in the time it takes me to find the back button with my thumb, press it then fire the shutter the chances are i'll have missed the shot anyway.

The thing I really don't get about BBF is the almost evangelical aspect of its converts - BBF works for you then thats great, but why do you feel the desire to 'convert' the 'unbelievers' to the cause - its not the only way of acheiving a creative shot (for example if i wanted to compose without a focal point on the baby, i'd prefocus on the plane of focus where the baby was going to be then turn the AF off) and it doesn't work for everyone.

 

[Toggerman]

I don't think it is, but if you want to leave your camera in standard mode and not use BBF because 99% of the time you prefer standard operation, it is a workaround which enables you to emulate BBF without removing focus start from the shutter button.

^ This.

Much more comfortable to hold a thumb against the af on that it is to keep your index finder half cocked all the time

That's personal preference as well, I used to get RSI in my right thumb with my Canon gear, making it painful in the end to use BBF, I haven't really tried it with my Nikons yet where I have no thumb problems.

 

[big soft moose]

That's personal preference as well,.

This - I have big hands and with my index finger on the shutter my thumb isnt comfortably on the back button anyway , hence the need to locate it each time and the missed shot potential

 

[joescrivens]

yeah but in the time it takes me to find the back button with my thumb, press it then fire the shutter the chances are i'll have missed the shot anyway.

The thing I really don't get about BBF is the almost evangelical aspect of its converts - BBF works for you then thats great, but why do you feel the desire to 'convert' the 'unbelievers' to the cause - its not the only way of acheiving a creative shot (for example if i wanted to compose without a focal point on the baby, i'd prefocus on the plane of focus where the baby was going to be then turn the AF off) and it doesn't work for everyone.

Who said anything about converting "unbelievers"

We're just discussing the advantages and disadvantages of the technique. If you want to use one over the other from personal preference then that's your prerogative. But it is a good thing to know the limits of a method. That way you can find workarounds that suit.

 

[whom]

The thing I really don't get about BBF is the almost evangelical aspect of its converts - BBF works for you then thats great, but why do you feel the desire to 'convert' the 'unbelievers' to the cause

Many people don't know it exists which is why us converts need to get the word out!

Your blasphemous comments have been noted by the way:

"I 'king hate back button focus - I had it on the 20D I bought from neil and I absolutely hated and despised it"

Out of interest, where the hell is your thumb if not near the back button

 

[big soft moose]

Who said anything about converting "unbelievers"

The general implicit gist of your response to my point above seemed to be "the way you are doing it is wrong, BBF is the one true path"

We're just discussing the advantages and disadvantages of the technique. If you want to use one over the other from personal preference then that's your prerogative. But it is a good thing to know the limits of a method. That way you can find workarounds that suit.

But you don't seem to be acknowledging that BBF has any disadvantages - wheras the main one I can see is that if you are focussed on action at one point and something amazing happens at another point you have to quickly recompose and shoot (often in a split second) and making focus and fire a two digit, two button process a) slows that down, and b) increases the likelihood of firing without focussing.

For me the bottom line is that this disadvantage massively outweighs any of the benefits others have described , particularly as I've not actually encountered any real benefit myself

 

[whom]

But you don't seem to be acknowledging that BBF has any disadvantages - wheras the main one I can see is that if you are focussed on action at one point and something amazing happens at another point you have to quickly recompose and shoot (often in a split second) and making focus and fire a two digit, two button process a) slows that down, and b) increases the likelihood of firing without focussing.

For me the bottom line is that this disadvantage massively outweighs any of the benefits others have described , particularly as I've not actually encountered any real benefit myself

I can see your point, but if you only use BBF then I don't think these disadvantages exist. Two button presses don't take twice the time... And do you mean because you're not in one-shot that the likelihood of firing without focussing is increased? I've got used to realising when focus is locked, even with ring usm you can tell when it's moving.

 

[big soft moose]

Out of interest, where the hell is your thumb if not near the back button

usually on the thumb grip as designed by canon (ie to the left of the two buttons) - times i've tried BBF I've found it very easy to press the wrong back button, having two next to each other wasnt a great design

Also my thumb might well be on the thumb wheel if i am quickly changing appertures to respond to a changing situation

 

[whom]

usually on the thumb grip as designed by canon (ie to the left of the two buttons) - times i've tried BBF I've found it very easy to press the wrong back button, having two next to each other wasnt a great design

Also my thumb might well be on the thumb wheel if i am quickly changing appertures to respond to a changing situation

Ah I see. I guess this is why Cameras with an AF-on button have it to the left of the two buttons you mention. It falls right under the thumb then. I didn't realise you were without a dedicated button!

I don't often use manual so the top turny doobrey does that for me but fair enough.

 

[big soft moose]

I'm shooting either a 20D or a 40D - BBF has to be set up on one of the two buttons (on the 20d I bought fron neil it was set up on the right hand one )

I could see the merit in BBF with a dedicated button under the thumb on the grip pad - i giuess we've been talking at cross purposes

 

[joescrivens]

The general implicit gist of your response to my point above seemed to be "the way you are doing it is wrong, BBF is the one true path"

Im just pointing out the limitation to your method. I'm not saying you should switch - you have your own work around to this limitation as you already described above.

But you don't seem to be acknowledging that BBF has any disadvantages -

Thats because it doesn't. It may not work for you as a method. but it doesn't have any limitations

wheras the main one I can see is that if you are focussed on action at one point and something amazing happens at another point you have to quickly recompose and shoot (often in a split second) and making focus and fire a two digit, two button process a) slows that down, and b) increases the likelihood of firing without focussing.

What are you talking about?

How does pressing 2 buttons at the same time slow anything down and increase the liklihood of firing without focussing.

You are thinking this way because the method is not natural to you so you think it is something you have to think about before doing. When you use BBF as your only focus method it doesn't take any longer to press a button with your thumb than it does to half press a shutter with your finger

 

[whom]

I'm shooting either a 20D or a 40D - BBF has to be set up on one of the two buttons (on the 20d I bought fron neil it was set up on the right hand one )

I could see the merit in BBF with a dedicated button under the thumb on the grip pad - i giuess we've been talking at cross purposes

I'm sure it has its drawbacks but I like it. I couldn't half use it though, it's an all or nothing thing. I can see why one might poke their eye out when using the * button. I still used it on the 5DI and that involved the * button, much nicer to use on the 5D2 and 40D I used to own.

If I had to summarise why I like it and why I would recommend it, I guess I like having an extra level of control with minimum effort. I'm not a fan of changing settings (one shot, servo, manual focus etc).

 

[HoppyUK]

Main advantage of BBF for me is with focus-recompose technique, that I use almost all the time. By definition, unless you can maintain constant half-pressure on the release, the camera will refocus on the wrong thing every time you want to shoot. Really irritating, especially on a tripod.

BBF is instinctive now. The only time it's inconvenient is when I have a flash in the left hand, holding the camera just with the right. It's awkward, but I can manage it.

 

[arad85]

Much more comfortable to hold a thumb against the af on that it is to keep your index finder half cocked all the time

As James Bond once said... "There's no point going off half-cocked is there"

 

[big soft moose]

Thats because it doesn't. It may not work for you as a method. but it doesn't have any limitations

which is what I mean by the evangelical aproach - every method has limitations, the principal limitation on BBF being that if you have to recompose in a split second you have to press two buttons in sequence and its very easy to forget to focus

I'm not say it isnt a good method for some people, but to claim its perfect is, in my opinion, just silly, if it doesnt work uniformly as a method by definition it has limitations (as is stating something which is just your opinion as though its a fact, )

What are you talking about?

How does pressing 2 buttons at the same time slow anything down and increase the liklihood of firing without focussing.

You are thinking this way because the method is not natural to you so you think it is something you have to think about before doing. When you use BBF as your only focus method it doesn't take any longer to press a button with your thumb than it does to half press a shutter with your finger

If you are photographing swift action with the focus set on the shutter button then the procedure is " compose, fire"

With it set on the back button its "compose, move your thumb from the rest to the back button, press the back button, fire" which clearly takes longer and can be the difference between a succesful capture and a missed shot

Also if you are constantly recomposing and shooting it is pretty easy to forget to press the back button - particularly when its not in an inuitive place (as on the xxD series) , as i said to 'whom' earlier I can see how this would be different with a dedicated button under the thumb on the rest.

Bottom line for me as I said before is that I can't see any advantage (for me) in BB shooting , whereas i can see considerable disadvantages. If it work for other people then thats great, I'm happy for byou but as far as my shooting goes I can't see fixing something that isnt broken

 

[whom]

The 40d does have a dedicated button! There is no thumb movement involved.

 

[big soft moose]

The 40d does have a dedicated button! There is no thumb movement involved.

So it does - I've never noticed that before ( I only upgraded from the 20D - which doesnt- a few weeks back)

mind you it is still above where i usually put my thumb when shooting, and looks like it would be uncomfortable to hold for long periods

 

[whom]

Haha you learnt something today

why not just pop into the customs functions and give it a try.... You know you want to. Stop being such a heathen!

 

[HoppyUK]

This BBF thing has been going on for several days and 40-odd posts now...

 

[joker2006]

This BBF thing has been going on for several days and 40-odd posts now...

And no mention of weddings

 

[Delphititan]

The short answer is no. The settings in the images shown just happened to provide some more interesting bokeh. Other situations will lend themselves to other settings that she won't know how to approach unless she studies more of the technical elements of the craft. The camera is a fine camera, but a good photographer can get great images with an IPhone.
Dan

 

[joescrivens]

which is what I mean by the evangelical aproach - every method has limitations, the principal limitation on BBF being that if you have to recompose in a split second you have to press two buttons in sequence and its very easy to forget to focus

that is a limitation of your memory, not the technique. I have never forgot to focus, just like I never forgot to press the shutter button, or zoomed out, or composed. Just because you kept forgetting to focus doesn't mean the method has a limitation, you can't blame the method for you inability to remember to do something.

I'm not say it isnt a good method for some people, but to claim its perfect is, in my opinion, just silly, if it doesnt work uniformly as a method by definition it has limitations (as is stating something which is just your opinion as though its a fact, )

It doesn't have any limitations. The one you pointed out is not a limitation of the method, just one of your memory.

If you are photographing swift action with the focus set on the shutter button then the procedure is " compose, fire"

With it set on the back button its "compose, move your thumb from the rest to the back button, press the back button, fire" which clearly takes longer and can be the difference between a succesful capture and a missed shot

There is no thumb movement. My thumb is always resting on the button. It takes no longer, it happens at the exact same time.

Also if you are constantly recomposing and shooting it is pretty easy to forget to press the back button - particularly when its not in an inuitive place (as on the xxD series) , as i said to 'whom' earlier I can see how this would be different with a dedicated button under the thumb on the rest.

Once again, you may have found it easy to forget, but that's because you don't use the technique all the time. That's just your memory. Once it's instinctive, you never forget, you don't even think about it, just like you don't think about pressing the shutter, it just happens at the same time

Bottom line for me as I said before is that I can't see any advantage (for me) in BB shooting , whereas i can see considerable disadvantages. If it work for other people then thats great, I'm happy for byou but as far as my shooting goes I can't see fixing something that isnt broken

No one is trying to convert you, if anything it comes across like you are trying to justify your reasons for not using bbf. There's nothing wrong with shutter focussing, no inadequacy or anything, choose the method that suits you best.

The fact is, there is no limitation to bbf though, doesn't mean it's the right method for you, we are all different and prefer different things. That's our prerogative.

 

[big soft moose]

that is a limitation of your memory, not the technique. I have never forgot to focus, just like I never forgot to press the shutter button, or zoomed out, or composed. Just because you kept forgetting to focus doesn't mean the method has a limitation, you can't blame the method for you inability to remember to do something.



It doesn't have any limitations. The one you pointed out is not a limitation of the method, just one of your memory.



There is no thumb movement. My thumb is always resting on the button. It takes no longer, it happens at the exact same time.



Once again, you may have found it easy to forget, but that's because you don't use the technique all the time. That's just your memory. Once it's instinctive, you never forget, you don't even think about it, just like you don't think about pressing the shutter, it just happens at the same time



No one is trying to convert you, if anything it comes across like you are trying to justify your reasons for not using bbf. There's nothing wrong with shutter focussing, no inadequacy or anything, choose the method that suits you best.

The fact is, there is no limitation to bbf though, doesn't mean it's the right method for you, we are all different and prefer different things. That's our prerogative.

You just dont get the difference between "I [you] have experienced no limitations" and " there are no limitations, fact" but I really can't be arsed to try to explain yet again that your opinion is just your opinion - it doesnt make it true for everyone. I do agree that we are all different and prefer different things - but asserting that because you like something it must be perfect is just daft

And as whom and I already established on the 10/20/30D there is quite considerable thumb movement because there isnt a dedicated AF on button , you have to set BBF to the * button which is not in an intuitive place to press easily with your thumb when you nhave the camera to your eye (in my opinion)

on the 40D there is a dedicated button but it is still above where the thumb rests usually.

I can see how BBF might work well in some situations if the button were right under your thumb, but since it isnt on any of the cameras I own, i'd still say that theres a design limitation to the method

 

[joescrivens]

You just dont get the difference between "I [you] have experienced no limitations" and " there are no limitations, fact" but I really can't be arsed to try to explain yet again that your opinion is just your opinion - it doesnt make it true for everyone. I do agree that we are all different and prefer different things - but asserting that because you like something it must be perfect is just daft

If there are limitations you would have pointed them out by now. The only thing you said was about

1. Forget to press it
2. It takes longer because you have to move your thumb

Number 1 is not a limitation of the method, but a limitation of your memory
Number 2 is the ergonomics of the camera - not a limitation of the technique.

It is fact that it has no limitation, but it is opinion that I think it is the perfect method. Just because something has no limitations doesn't make it perfect. Everyone has their own preference to how they do things, we're human.

I can see how BBF might work well in some situations if the button were right under your thumb, but since it isnt on any of the cameras I own, i'd still say that theres a design limitation to the method

Thats a limitation of the ergonomics of the camera model. The technique is about seperating the focus from the shutter - where that button goes is up to each individual camera maker. If it is put in a place that isn't practical then thats the fault of the company who put it there, not the method itself.

 

[whom]

Whoa guys, relax! This is why the are five custom functions for that button!

Joe, he's got a weird thumb and has terrible memory, leave the poor fella alone. .....

 

[joescrivens]

Joe, he's got a weird thumb and has terrible memory, leave the poor fella alone. .....

that's tagline spectacular right there!

 

[big soft moose]

I don't get why you are so determined to show that BBF has 'no limitations' - i'm not saying its a bad technique per se, just that its not this wonderous perfect thing that some people seem to be making it out to be.

there are two seperate issues

a) The assertion that seperating focus from shutter activation is always a good idea. Personally I disagree , I like the Kiss model for such things (Keep it simple stupid), and would say that in any high pressured situation the fewer buttons there are to press the better.

b) The idea that the ergonomics and design of the camera are somehow seperate to the technique - they clearly aren't because they they determine whether the techniique is even practical, if a camera manufacturer decided not to put that custom function i the firmware then you wouldnt even be able to do BBF so the two are explicitly linked, and therefore the fact that on some cameras the button doesnt exist , and on others it does but in an awkward place is a limitation of the method - ie it is limited to those cameras with a back button, and limited in effectiveness on some models by the back button not being inutitively placed - QED

Last word from me on this in my opinion BBF is a good technique for some people with some kit, in some circumstances - if you are one of these people then thats great, i'm happy for you. It isn't however a perfect technique for all people with any kit in all circumstances - which is why it is a custom setting not a default.

thats only my opinion - if you disagree then thats fine, life would be very boring if we all had the same onion on everything, but lets just agree to differ and leave it there

 

[joescrivens]

I don't get why you are so determined to show that BBF has 'no limitations'

Because it hasn't. That's just simple fact.

Whether you like the method or not, is opinion and preference. Nothing is perfect.

lets just agree to differ and leave it there

Agree!

 

[joescrivens]

your wife got really nice pics! and you daughter is very cute !

she certainly did, and yes she is

 

[joker2006]

Unless I'm being thick just set up bbf on my d90 and I have a grip now if I take a shot in portrait mode then it is not a very good idea.
But for normal shooting I could defiantly get used to it I think. Just used it for taking some snaps of my sisters dog in the garden and I can see the advantages of using it panning etc

 

[big soft moose]

Because it hasn't. That's just simple fact.

Whether you like the method or not, is opinion and preference. Nothing is perfect.

can you really not see the inherent contradiction in the two bits i've emboldened ? I agree nothing is perfect , but this why there are inherent limitations in the BBF method - I sometimes wonder if we are speaking the same language.

 

[joescrivens]

can you really not see the inherent contradiction in the two bits i've emboldened ? I agree nothing is perfect , but this why there are inherent limitations in the BBF method - I sometimes wonder if we are speaking the same language.

What happened to:

Last word from me on this

and

but lets just agree to differ and leave it there

I thought you had said your last word on it and we were leaving it there? :shrug:

 

[DemiLion]

Knock it off, the pair of you.

Between you, you've shagged a potentially decent thread.

 

[whom]

Knock it off, the pair of you.

Between you, you've shagged a potentially decent thread.

Ah but it is his thread so at least it was consensual...