Does the 5d Mark 3 make you a better photographer?

[futureal33]

What do you mean? My 5DI used the * because it doesn't have an AF on button.... now I use the AF ON button.

There's a button with a * next to it, you can re-map this button to freeze Auto-Focus (I think it defaults to exposure-lock) so you aim camera, focus with shutter button, press the * button to lock focus, then do what you want.

I'll say that I never use this... but I know you can do this. This makes more sense to me than having to hold down the AF-ON button all the time?

 

[joescrivens]

There's a button with a * next to it, you can re-map this button to freeze Auto-Focus (I think it defaults to exposure-lock) so you aim camera, focus with shutter button, press the * button to lock focus, then do what you want.

I'll say that I never use this... but I know you can do this. This makes more sense to me than having to hold down the AF-ON button all the time?

that's much more complicated. Plus you only have to hold the af on button down if you want to track focus with servo, if you are on one shot then you press it just once. Having af on be the only way to focus means only ever pressing one button, the method you described involves 2 button presses.

Theres many scenario's where I use back button focus -

My daughter is on a swing and I am at the side of her, she's swinging back and forth constantly. I want to frame her on the moment where she is on the fulcrum of that swing - I could follow her swing but i'm moving as well as her and it means keeping my focus point on her face as she swings back and forth - might not be the right composition.

So I frame it then I wait for her to reach the right spot and then focus using the back button. Then I just wait, each time she swings into shot i press the shutter - i now never have to refocus, and I don't have to recompose - if you did your focus with the shutter it would refocus each time she swung in and you could focus on the wrong thing. Here's an example shot:

Other examples would be that she stays in the same place but is pulling different expressions, maybe moving her head from side to side. by focussing with a back button you can focus just once and then snap, snap whenever you like - never refocussing always keeping the same exposure and composition

 

[whom]

There's a button with a * next to it, you can re-map this button to freeze Auto-Focus (I think it defaults to exposure-lock) so you aim camera, focus with shutter button, press the * button to lock focus, then do what you want.

I'll say that I never use this... but I know you can do this. This makes more sense to me than having to hold down the AF-ON button all the time?

I see what you mean. I mapped that to the same function as AF-ON on my 5DI. So I press that, AI servo kicks in until I release.

I guess it depends on what you shoot as to its usefulness. For example, with a bird in a tree where it flicks between a near branch and the bird, I can just release when its on the bird, snap away, then hold the button again when I want it to resume.

If I was shooting somewhere fast paced all the time where the subject was always in the centre (maybe football etc) then I would just leave it on the shutter half press I guess.

 

[futureal33]

that's much more complicated. Plus you only have to hold the af on button down if you want to track focus with servo, if you are on one shot then you press it just once. Having af on be the only way to focus means only ever pressing one button, the method you described involves 2 button presses.

Theres many scenario's where I use back button focus -

My daughter is on a swing and I am at the side of her, she's swinging back and forth constantly. I want to frame her on the moment where she is on the fulcrum of that swing - I could follow her swing but i'm moving as well as her and it means keeping my focus point on her face as she swings back and forth - might not be the right composition.

So I frame it then I wait for her to reach the right spot and then focus using the back button. Then I just wait, each time she swings into shot i press the shutter - i now never have to refocus, and I don't have to recompose - if you did your focus with the shutter it would refocus each time she swung in and you could focus on the wrong thing. Here's an example shot:

Other examples would be that she stays in the same place but is pulling different expressions, maybe moving her head from side to side. by focussing with a back button you can focus just once and then snap, snap whenever you like - never refocussing always keeping the same exposure and composition

Joe,
I see your point on the first part of your reply - but wouldn't it be easier just to do that all with the shutter?
She's swinging back and forwards, you decide you want a shot when she's at the fulcrum of the swing. You are on One-Shot mode then aim and focus at the point of the swing desired, hold the shutter half way down, recompose if necessary, then just press it fully when she gets to that point again on the next swing or passing?
Surely that would be easier?

Also, if shooting wide open at f2.0 (like I know you like to do!) isnt this very risky as you could have moved forwards/backwards slightly without knowing?


*Ps - im not being awkward here, Im genuinely intrigued by the AF-ON focus method and why people use it*

 

[whom]

Joe,
I see your point on the first part of your reply - but wouldn't it be easier just to do that all with the shutter?
She's swinging back and forwards, you decide you want a shot when she's at the fulcrum of the swing. You are on One-Shot mode then aim and focus at the point of the swing desired, hold the shutter half way down, recompose if necessary, then just press it fully when she gets to that point again on the next swing or passing?
Surely that would be easier?

Also, if shooting wide open at f2.0 (like I know you like to do!) isnt this very risky as you could have moved forwards/backwards slightly without knowing?


*Ps - im not being awkward here, Im genuinely intrigued by the AF-ON focus method and why people use it*

The fulcrum of the swing is out of shot!

It's a very natural way to control the focus I have found. I know when I want focus, I press button. When I want metering and photo I half press and then press shutter. Can you really see no uses for that?

Having to half hold down the shutter button between swings is WAY more effort than not having to press anything at all, plus you can review images etc etc while never loosing the focus point.

 

[futureal33]

The fulcrum of the swing is out of shot!

It's a very natural way to control the focus I have found. I know when I want focus, I press button. When I want metering and photo I half press and then press shutter. Can you really see no uses for that?

Sorry, genuinely cant see the point of that.
You say you know when you want focus, so you aim - and lock focus. You then want metering and photo.. why didn't you do all those 3 steps with one button press?
If you locked focus, then decided to re-compose the shot, you're risking altering the plane of focus and getting an OOF shot unless you re-focus.

If all this was done from the shutter button surely its quicker and easier? (and more likely to be in focus, as the focus lock will be more current than a previously determined focus location - which could have moved with you etc)

 

[joescrivens]

Joe,
I see your point on the first part of your reply - but wouldn't it be easier just to do that all with the shutter?
She's swinging back and forwards, you decide you want a shot when she's at the fulcrum of the swing. You are on One-Shot mode then aim and focus at the point of the swing desired, hold the shutter half way down, recompose if necessary, then just press it fully when she gets to that point again on the next swing or passing?
Surely that would be easier?

Ever tried getting a shot like this in one go? 2 year old attention, looking the right way etc etc - she swung back and fourth 10 times for me to get that one shot - if I did that with the shutter I'd have to have refocussed 10 times.

Once I have focussed with back button I'm set - she can swing in and out as many times as she likes and I never have to focus again - therefore every single time she swings into shot I know she's in focus - whereas if I had to half press a shutter every other time, i'd halve my number of chances - she may only do this smile and look down the barrel once - i don't want to risk that one time being one where I am setting the focus

 

[whom]

Sorry, genuinely cant see the point of that.
You say you know when you want focus, so you aim - and lock focus. You then want metering and photo.. why didn't you do all those 3 steps with one button press?
If you locked focus, then decided to re-compose the shot, you're risking altering the plane of focus and getting an OOF shot unless you re-focus.

If all this was done from the shutter button surely its quicker and easier? (and more likely to be in focus, as the focus lock will be more current than a previously determined focus location - which could have moved with you etc)

Well my advice would be to change your camera settings and go have a try with it this way round. Just be sure not to poke your eye with your thumb. Word of advice, you don't need to use the tip of your thumb! You thumb is near that button when you hold the camera regardless.

At the end of the day, this is why Canon include the custom functions.

 

[joescrivens]

heres another example


IMG_0859 by JoeBoyMan, on Flickr

this is actually me throwing my son and my wife is the one taking the shot - but lets pretend it's me for ease of explaining.

The man throws the child but I want to frame it so that he throws him into the frame rather than tracking the child right. So if I am using a half shutter press to do it it would go like this:

Tell dad to hold boy still - half press shutter and keep it half pressed, move camera up to position and say "Throw", dad throws child and i snap the shot. If it was perfect, then great - i got it in one - but what if it wasn't, now I have to repeat the same procedure - dad holds child still - i focus, half press etc lather rinse repeat.

With back button focus it goes like this:

Dad holds boy still I focus with back button, let go and reframe - now dad can throw son up again and again and again and I can snap each one without stopping the fluidity of the fun etc - boy laughs more, i get better shot.

I don't have to worry about him going out of focus by small movements because at a distance of 16.5m, f/2 135mm my dof is 1.78m - thats more than enough for small movements as the throwing is happening.

 

[futureal33]

Ever tried getting a shot like this in one go? 2 year old attention, looking the right way etc etc - she swung back and fourth 10 times for me to get that one shot - if I did that with the shutter I'd have to have refocussed 10 times.

Once I have focussed with back button I'm set - she can swing in and out as many times as she likes and I never have to focus again - therefore every single time she swings into shot I know she's in focus - whereas if I had to half press a shutter every other time, i'd halve my number of chances - she may only do this smile and look down the barrel once - i don't want to risk that one time being one where I am setting the focus

Joe,
That reply makes more sense to me now. I can see why you could use it in that situation - and as a plus side, I guess doing that would be more accurate than using one of the outer focus points on a 5D2...
Would still feel tempted to just keep hold of the shutter button and wait for the right picture though. I guess practice makes all the difference here as shooting a 135mm at f2.0 like this must be hit and miss?

Side question - as you have a 5D2 and 5D3, just how much better are the side focus points?

 

[whom]

heres another example



this is actually me throwing my son and my wife is the one taking the shot - but lets pretend it's me for ease of explaining.

The man throws the child but I want to frame it so that he throws him into the frame rather than tracking the child right. So if I am using a half shutter press to do it it would go like this:

Tell dad to hold boy still - half press shutter and keep it half pressed, move camera up to position and say "Throw", dad throws child and i snap the shot. If it was perfect, then great - i got it in one - but what if it wasn't, now I have to repeat the same procedure - dad holds child still - i focus, half press etc lather rinse repeat.

With back button focus it goes like this:

Dad holds boy still I focus with back button, let go and reframe - now dad can throw son up again and again and again and I can snap each one without stopping the fluidity of the fun etc - boy laughs more, i get better shot.

Another nice example Joe. Good explaining.

In short, it is all about an extra level of control

When you want to focus, press focus button. When you want to take a picture, press shutter button.
Back in the manual focussing day..
When you want to focus, twist manual focus. When you want to take a picture, press shutter button.

 

[joescrivens]

Joe,
That reply makes more sense to me now. I can see why you could use it in that situation - and as a plus side, I guess doing that would be more accurate than using one of the outer focus points on a 5D2...
Would still feel tempted to just keep hold of the shutter button and wait for the right picture though. I guess practice makes all the difference here as shooting a 135mm at f2.0 like this must be hit and miss?

Side question - as you have a 5D2 and 5D3, just how much better are the side focus points?

it isn't easy with swing shots at all thats for sure, thats often why i do a side shot, because from the front you are dealing with the moving subject's head as well as the subject moving on the swing too - for that I stick with servo usually and track it like in this one


swing by JoeBoyMan, on Flickr

that was at 1.6 by the way - i think that answers your next question about how good the ouer points are - the answer is the difference is night and day.

 

[futureal33]

heres another example

this is actually me throwing my son and my wife is the one taking the shot - but lets pretend it's me for ease of explaining.

The man throws the child but I want to frame it so that he throws him into the frame rather than tracking the child right. So if I am using a half shutter press to do it it would go like this:

Tell dad to hold boy still - half press shutter and keep it half pressed, move camera up to position and say "Throw", dad throws child and i snap the shot. If it was perfect, then great - i got it in one - but what if it wasn't, now I have to repeat the same procedure - dad holds child still - i focus, half press etc lather rinse repeat.

With back button focus it goes like this:

Dad holds boy still I focus with back button, let go and reframe - now dad can throw son up again and again and again and I can snap each one without stopping the fluidity of the fun etc - boy laughs more, i get better shot.

I don't have to worry about him going out of focus by small movements because at a distance of 16.5m, f/2 135mm my dof is 1.78m - thats more than enough for small movements as the throwing is happening.

Joe,
Just going to re-phrase your above statement to how I use half shutter focus. This is primarily for a lens such as the 135mm f2L with such fast AF.

Pre focus on somewhere "about right" and remove finger from shutter, then as he was thrown up into the air, adjust composition accordingly so that the active focus point was on childs face, focus and take photo - clearly all of this is done within 1/2 a second....
I wouldn't attempt this with a lens with slow Auto Focus though, so point taken And I'd expect the 100% pin sharp hit rate to be low, especially at f2.0 or thereabouts.

Here is a shot fairly similar - using the above method.
Taken with my 100mm f2.0 USM


Ryan Karen by futureal33, on Flickr

 

[joescrivens]

Here's another bonus to back button focus.

Lets say you want to use servo and track the subject. With shutter half press you are continuously tracking, even when taking the shot. Now if you have your camera in continuous shooting mode it will keep tracking the focus as the shots are happening - you have no control over this.

But if you are using back button then you can have your thumb tracking and your finger taking the photos - if for some reason you wanted to stop tracking but keep taking the shots you can keep your finger down and pull the thumb off.

 

[redddraggon]

I don't normally agree with Joe, but on the subject of back button focusing I do. Seems to be the best way (IMO)

 

[joescrivens]

Joe,
Just going to re-phrase your above statement to how I use half shutter focus. This is primarily for a lens such as the 135mm f2L with such fast AF.

Pre focus on somewhere "about right" and remove finger from shutter, then as he was thrown up into the air, adjust composition accordingly so that the active focus point was on childs face, focus and take photo - clearly all of this is done within 1/2 a second....
I wouldn't attempt this with a lens with slow Auto Focus though, so point taken And I'd expect the 100% pin sharp hit rate to be low, especially at f2.0 or thereabouts.

Yup, I have done similar, but you were forced into having to compose it where the childs face was on a focus point - as a result, you've cropped the mans feet out of shot.

The fact that you HAVE to have the focus point on the childs face when you press the shutter limits your composition options.

 

[futureal33]

Yup, I have done similar, but you were forced into having to compose it where the childs face was on a focus point - as a result, you've cropped the mans feet out of shot.

The fact that you HAVE to have the focus point on the childs face when you press the shutter limits your composition options.

Very true, but if Id use back-button focus in this instance I'd have had to guess where her face was going to be when I wanted to take the shot.
As it happened he just picked her up and swung her round, once. I didnt ask him to, and he didnt do it again.
Would you have used back button focus then?

PS - you can tell its ever so slightly OOF too (on her face), not terrible, but not as sharp as Id have liked. Mis-focus

 

[joescrivens]

going on about the composition thing again - the other issue with following the shot then focussing ones you only got one shot, whereas you could have set the focus and then got shots of the whole thing - so long as the dof is enough to cover the movement - and the composition will stay the same - this is good for this kind of action:


IMG_6242triptych by JoeBoyMan, on Flickr

it's not a great shot because it was a LONG time ago, but you get the idea.

Very true, but if Id use back-button focus in this instance I'd have had to guess where her face was going to be when I wanted to take the shot.
As it happened he just picked her up and swung her round, once. I didnt ask him to, and he didnt do it again. Would you have used back button focus then?

well, I always use back button focus so yes I would have used it - with the mark 2 I would have struggled to capture the whole swing. If my camera was in one shot then i would have done just what you did, but i might have focussed on his body and then just fired lots of shots as he did the swing to see if i could capture a variety in focus - by the look of him and the child there was enough DOF for that but i can't see the exif so not sure.

however on my mark 3 I would have held my DOF preview button, switching my camera to servos and then I would have tracked focus and taken a bunch of shots - meaning that my composition was somewhat defined by where the focus point had to be. an impulse shot like this doesn't give you the option to pre compose - you just have to think on your feet.

 

[joescrivens]

I don't normally agree with Joe, but on the subject of back button focusing I do. Seems to be the best way (IMO)

 

[gman]

This has been an excellent thread

 

[joescrivens]

This has been an excellent thread

Much like all my threads

 

[whom]

Much like all my threads

LOL I bet someone disagrees....

I don't normally agree with Joe, but on the subject of back button focusing I do. Seems to be the best way (IMO)

 

[James J]

Gonna give this back focusing thing a go myself at some point.

 

[modchild]

I've been BBF for a couple of weeks with my 5D3 and 60D and I'm pretty impressed with it. I tried it with the 5D2 and 7D I had before the 5D3 and didn't get too much success with it. Maybe it was the AF system of the 5D2, but it was certainly not great when I tried, with one shot and servo I always seemed to be slightly OOF for some reason. The 7D was similar, but that was probably me losing faith in it.
Another good thing about BBF, if someone else picks up your camera for a fiddle about they soon put it back down as they can't get it to take 'in focus' photos and put it down again. They only bad thing is if you forget your on BBF and panic when you try and shoot a quick shot off and can't get it in focus yourself.

 

[futureal33]

My first BBF'd shot on my 5D2 and 85mm


477915_10150956148325170_719315169_12685437_642488122_o by futureal33, on Flickr

Must admit.... I was quite liking the focus then recompose approach, which is made much easier by BBFing!

 

[James J]

Gonna give this back focusing thing a go myself at some point.

To note, also tried this myself and was quite impressed with how easy it was to recompose shots. Now I can use the very accurate centre point, which is vastly better in low light and just recompose to get the style of photo framing I want.

 

[Jesoid]

Cracking shots, I recently took up digital photography and am using an EOS 450d (have quickly become hooked and looking to upgrade to a 7d already). I used to be of the opinion that the better the equipment the better the picture.To a certain degree this is true but having seen some pictures that people have taken on my camera I was shocked at poor they were.
On a recent visit to Bruntingthorpe I heard the quote "I spend all this money on a new f@#!ing lens and they are still crap" guess that goes to prove it is not down to the equipment.

 

[specialman]

Joe, you have a worrying amount of images of babies being thrown around

Interesting thread, especially the post you made about the man (you) throwing the baby and how you lock focus.

I'm a fan of focus lock buttons on my 70-200mm, but of course, this is just one lens....

 

[joescrivens]

Joe, you have a worrying amount of images of babies being thrown around

you should see the bruises!

 

[salixius]

no! certainly not..all it means is the camera has done the work not you..Theres an artist whom bought a camera for 50p at a car boot sale..and went and photographed the city he lived in..cut a long story short..he's now a very rich man.His name is stephan gill "outside in".The best photographs iv ever seen are film photos..
n
x

 

[AJQS]

The best photographs iv ever seen are film photos..
n
x

I like this quote

I do like the idea of back button focus, so I set my new (well to me) Fuji up that way, but didn't get on with it, mainly because AF is so slow (Not sure whether it's just particular to my lenses or the body) and the button is so far away from where I'd want it to be. I just don't find it natural to do, even though for most of my shots I line up the focus in advance and then meter at time of exposure.

I'm going to have to play some more I think

 

[big soft moose]

no! certainly not..all it means is the camera has done the work not you..Theres an artist whom bought a camera for 50p at a car boot sale..and went and photographed the city he lived in..cut a long story short..he's now a very rich man.His name is stephan gill "outside in".The best photographs iv ever seen are film photos..
n
x

I pretty much agree - a good camera can make up for your shortcomings/just a basic camera can expose them, but a good tog can get shots whatever gear he's using.

A long while back I was on a wild arena convention at marwell zoon with Andy Rouse and in the lull at lunch time we tried a little experiement which bears this out.

At the time I was shooting with a 300D and he was shooting with a 1DSmk1 , and by bchance we both had the same lens on (70-200). Marwell had just aquired a pair of fossa (zeee fooosa , Zeee foooosa are coming - from the madagascar films)

These are notoriously difficult to get good shots of at the best of times so they made an interesting asubject for said experiment.

Basically we both took a few shots of ze fooosa , then we swapped cameras and took a few more, then later we downloaded the shots onto his laptop for side by side comparsion.

The upshot was that with the 1DS his shots were better than mine , but not be a huge margin (and where they were better was in composition , which is a matter of experience not gear - mine were still easily the best fossa shots i'd taken to date)

With the 300D my shots were terrible , but his shots were nearly as good as his 1DS shots.

The bottom line being that the more advanced camera was compensating for my (then) lack of skill , but that a top end tog could still get great shots with basic kit.

-----

on the later discussion , I 'king hate back button focus - I had it on the 20D I bought from neil and I absolutely hated and despised it - basically because in a flurry of action I would often forget to press the back button leading to out of focus shots. As soon as i hit a lull I went restore factory defaults and hardly missed any shots from there on in.

 

[whom]

Lol just because you're forgetful doesn't make it a bad setting

 

[big soft moose]

Lol just because you're forgetful doesn't make it a bad setting

No - i'm just saying it doesnt work for me not that its inherently bad for everyone.

Personally i just don't get it - if I wanted to take a picture of someone throwing a baby in the air i'd just use AI servo and lock the focus on the baby - I can't see any reason why BBF makes that easier.

In practice i've not found any situation where I need BBF asnd i've found it a total pita in several so i don't use it anymore - bottom line for me why make taking a shot more comlicated than it needs to be ?

 

[whom]

I tend to use it to avoid switching between one shot and ai servo. Especially useful for birds as you want servo for flying but can be a pain when they're in a tree as it flicks back and forth. Also stops me needing to put the lens into manual focus for panoramas.

Fair enough though, I know it doesn't work for everyone.

 

[Toggerman]

The man throws the child but I want to frame it so that he throws him into the frame rather than tracking the child right. So if I am using a half shutter press to do it it would go like this:

Tell dad to hold boy still - half press shutter and keep it half pressed, move camera up to position and say "Throw", dad throws child and i snap the shot. If it was perfect, then great - i got it in one - but what if it wasn't, now I have to repeat the same procedure - dad holds child still - i focus, half press etc lather rinse repeat.

I'm going to disagree with this. Half pressing the shutter in One Shot works both ways, as long as you don't fully release the button after fully depressing it keeps the focus locked and you can just shoot and shoot without having to refocus. It sounds more hassle than back focussing but it's all down to personal preference, I find it easier to do that than to BBF.

 

[DemiLion]

I'm going to disagree with this. Half pressing the shutter in One Shot works both ways, as long as you don't fully release the button after fully depressing it keeps the focus locked and you can just shoot and shoot without having to refocus. It sounds more hassle than back focussing but it's all down to personal preference, I find it easier to do that than to BBF.

If you're on single frame, one shot, the camera will attempt to reacquire focus each time you press the shutter button. With AF-On it won't.

 

[DuncanH]

First off I think it's what ever suites you best as long as you are achieving sharp images.

I've been using BBF and centre point for about 7 years and find it works for me particularly when shooting sport all day long and don't have to hold the shutter half down for a long time waiting for the shot. When I first started trying it only some of the time I did find I forgot and was missing shots, my advice is if you are going to use BBF you use it all the time. As it's the only way I shoot I'm quick with a grab shot as it's second nature to me, in fact I have difficulty with a "normally" set up camera as I first hit the BB and can't understand why it's not focusing. With cameras that have an AF-On I also swap it for the* button because it's more naturally placed for my thumb.

I used to only use al servo even for static shots by using the BB couldn't understand why I shouldn't until I read how al servo takes a little long to focus as it is calculating the predictive aspect plus it continually resamples therefore doesn't ever "lock" on. Whether this is correct I wouldn't guarantee but I do feel that now with static shots where dof is slim one shot appears to deliver me more consistent spot on focus.

Got my 5Dmk3 about 10 days ago but not had time to set it up yet, really like the idea of using the preview to change one shot/al servo. My understanding is that it only changes whilst holding it then it reverts back, whist I haven't tried it yet I would have preferred it to toggle and not revert back so that you don't have to hold it down but time will tell.

 

[joescrivens]

Personally i just don't get it - if I wanted to take a picture of someone throwing a baby in the air i'd just use AI servo and lock the focus on the baby - I can't see any reason why BBF makes that easier.

But as said before you are then restricting your composition to one where a focus point HAS to be on the baby. You have less creative freedom. Plus you have to keep moving up and down with the baby and you have no idea the speed with each throw so could easily miss focus.

That's why bbf makes it easier.

 

[Toggerman]

If you're on single frame, one shot, the camera will attempt to reacquire focus each time you press the shutter button. With AF-On it won't.

It only acquires focus on the half press, but not again when full depressed. If you keep it half pressed when releasing then the AF is still locked. Try it for yourselves.