Do I need a xxD rather than a xxxD for business?

[rbrown74]

Bare with me here - Yes, this is another 'what camera' thread but I'm really at a loss as to what upgrade to make. :shrug:

Currently own a 450d - it has served me well and have access to a 500d for back-up - only use it as a last resort as it's not mine. I have a Sigma 17-70 lens, 50mm 1.8 and a 55-250 IS.

I've been doing portraiture on a low level for a couple of years now - no advertising - just word of mouth mainly through facebook.

Things are about to escalate big time as I'll be doing portraits for my place of employment (a secondary school with 900 pupils) plus converting my workshop at home to a semi-permanent studio area to push for more knock-on business through the school portraits - doing the school formal too.

Also, been asked to do a staff members wedding at the end of the year (low-key - no fuss)

Basically things are building up in such a way that I feel the need to upgrade my camera, as once out of the home studio I can struggle, especially in low light situations and I'd like to do more outdoor portraiture too. Looking at better glass also, but its the body that I'm struggling with making a decision on.

Was reckoning on getting the 60d and had even thought of the 7d at one point - until I saw the release of the 650d. Had seen some advice given on here a while back that if you're going to go into business you need a pro camera and that the 650d isnt pro. Surely as it stands it's going to take as good, if not better pictures, than the 60d?? What rules it out for pro useage? Is the construction that bad? (bearing in mind I'm used to the xxxd series and treat my equipment very gently .) What other factors am I missing? Due to time scale I'd like to upgrade within the next couple of months.

Any help greatly appreciated.

 

[Jeff Spangle]

Pro use = it makes you money

Doesn't matter what you use (although people might look down on your camera being the same as their uncle Pete's. etc..)

 

[fastworldimages]

Use what you are happy with.

Personally the reason I shoot on 1 series are for factors like the better build, weather sealing, and duel card slots. But then my work you can't just go back and offer a re shoot on a different day.

There's no real reason to upgrade to a xxd IMO, it doesn't really offer anything over the xxd bar marginally better build.

Some may feel otherwise but hey ho.

 

[ernesto]

Nobody knows what camera you used when they are looking at the photos.

Assuming a xxxD will be just as reliable as a xxD or even xD then the other differences are just whether you need them, not whether anyone else does.

 

[FourRingCircus]

I'm using a 5DII and my wife has a 550D. Unless you are severely cropping images then there is nothing of a difference to see in the final photo. Once you get into 10+megapixel shots, it's all academic anyway. OK, so nobody is going to get excited by a xxxD, but in terms of value for money, that's the way to go.

If you were shooting nature all the time in all weathers the answer would be quite different.

 

[rbrown74]

I appreciate all the replies guys. You have all helped to confirm pretty much what I was hoping to be true!

Really interesting what you say about the 5DII and the 550D too, FourRingCircus.

I shall stump up for the 650D in the near future - and now the fun of looking for the ideal zoom lens to match it!

 

[pete.rush]

Personally I would be looking at full frame, especially for portraits and weddings and some decent lenses and studio gear. Flashes lights etc.

The 5D series of camera's offer miles better ISO capabilities compared to the XXXD or XXD models and the size of the sensor and pixels offers more colour warmth in the images, which is one factor your need. The 2nd is lenses and probably a mixture of fast primes and zooms (reason why you're struggling, your lenses ain't fast enough, especially the 55-250mm, minimum f2.8 or faster for indoor/wedding/studio work.

like

24-70mm f2.8 and 70-200mm f2.8 which is a very good combination

combined with the likes of

85mm f1.8, 135mm f2, 50mm f1.4 etc

Lenses are definitely the must, camera body for high ISO capabilities, but your not talking peanuts in budget terms, but best advice, buy 2nd hand, more for your $$$$

 

[heidfirst]

There's no real reason to upgrade to a xxd IMO, it doesn't really offer anything over the xxd bar marginally better build.

& better ergonomics/handling.
If you have plenty of time it won't make a difference but if you are in a rush it can.

 

[rbrown74]

Personally I would be looking at full frame, especially for portraits and weddings and some decent lenses and studio gear. Flashes lights etc.

The 5D series of camera's offer miles better ISO capabilities compared to the XXXD or XXD models and the size of the sensor and pixels offers more colour warmth in the images, which is one factor your need. The 2nd is lenses and probably a mixture of fast primes and zooms (reason why you're struggling, your lenses ain't fast enough, especially the 55-250mm, minimum f2.8 or faster for indoor/wedding/studio work.

like

24-70mm f2.8 and 70-200mm f2.8 which is a very good combination

combined with the likes of

85mm f1.8, 135mm f2, 50mm f1.4 etc

Lenses are definitely the must, camera body for high ISO capabilities, but your not talking peanuts in budget terms, but best advice, buy 2nd hand, more for your $$$$

Hi, I see where you're coming from but round this area there are photographers popping up everywhere (of which I am one!) and charging very little Just got asked could I price match a quote for a wedding at £300.:bonk: Didnt even take it under my notice!

It would take a loooog time to make back the money of a 5D even if I had it to invest. I work full-time elsewhere and only wish to do this part-time. Really not sure about buying second hand bodies either - even then it would be a pretty old 5D to reach my budget. Other photographers around here are getting rave reviews - people oohhhing and ahhhing at their work on Facebook and it's pretty average to be honest - grey backgrounds (which are supposed to be white) and flat lighting/colours. I'm not saying I'm fantastic either but around this area there is no point buying top gear when most people wont pay top prices for the results. Talking just yesterday to photographer who is fantastic - his work is inspirational - and he's getting very few through the doors.

As for portraiture I have a 3 flash set-up and backdrop from Lencarta which I will be adding another higher powered head to soon hopefully.

Lenses - I'm happy to buy second hand so will look into the 24-70 2.8 as I like that reach on the Sigma I have. Would consider the Sigma 24-70 2.8.

Appreciate the reply!

 

[philwillmedia]

...been asked to do a staff members wedding at the end of the year (low-key - no fuss)

There's your warning bells right there.
The words "wedding", "low-key" and "no fuss" can never, ever be put in the same sentence together.
The more "low key" and "no fuss" they claim it to be, the more they expect from you and the more difficulties you are likely to have.

Personally, I wouldn't do a wedding for anyone I knew and definitely not anyone I work with.
If something happens and it turns pear-shape, it will make for a difficult working situation.

 

[rbrown74]

There's your warning bells right there.
The words "wedding", "low-key" and "no fuss" can never, ever be put in the same sentence together.

Yep, I've heard of the rise of Bridezilla from humble beginnings - but honestly she is a lovely genuine quiet, reserved, person and I she wouldn't even have a photographer there if she could get away with it.

 

[modchild]

The 650D knocks spots off most of its predecessors for its video and high ISO capabilities. The touch screen is highly responsive and makes it quite easy to make changes to the settings without having to use all the buttons. The build quality is surprizingly good too. The fps is impressive and the IQ you get from it are similar in quality to the 60D and overall it's very impressive. I've just got the 40mm STM lens to go with it for video work and first impressions for both video and stills are very good. I've recently bought one for the wife as un update to the 550D and is is a decent step up in features, so from a 450D you'd find it a very good upgrade. If I was just in the market for a first dslr the 650D is the one I'd go for straight away.

 

[FourRingCircus]

24-70mm f2.8 and 70-200mm f2.8 which is a very good combination

Forget the body - Lenses come first and this combination would be spot-on. Only thing with the crop sensor is this would give you a minimum of an effective 38.4mm which won't be ideal if you want to work very close to the subject. For me, if budget is the stumbling block, keep what you have and only go with the 24-70 F2.8L

 

[Dave *]

My opinion, shoot with what you are comfortable with, from both an ergonomic view as well as operation. It would be foolhardy to shoot something like a wedding with equipment you are not 100% used to, they are stressful enough without having to learn the camera at the same time.

I've only shot 3 weddings on digital as favours for friends and family (I was a film WW for about 20 years), and did 2 with a 400D and a 450D and one with the 450D and 40D. (I wouldn't contemplate doing a wedding with only one body).

The results were indistinguishable from each other, and I probably preferred using the 400D/450D combo due to similarity of layout.

A 650D and a 7D are rated to the same shutter level (IIRC), so for use in a studio or indoor environment I would doubt any adavantage of the heavier build quality of the 7D would show.

 

[gman]

It may be possible to make a photo from a budget camera to look identical to an pro camera, but it's getting the photo that's important, if you know what I mean.

 

[Dave *]

It may be possible to make a photo from a budget camera to look identical to an pro camera, but it's getting the photo that's important, if you know what I mean.

I would agree if he said he was going to start shooting sports, or become a Pap, but using it in a home studio isn't the most taxing of environments.

Handling wise, if you don't like the size of the xxxD, adding a grip makes a big difference.

 

[Phil V]

I would agree if he said he was going to start shooting sports, or become a Pap, but using it in a home studio isn't the most taxing of environments.

Handling wise, if you don't like the size of the xxxD, adding a grip makes a big difference.

But it's not just the home studio, it's a move to weddings.

I could use an xxxd and shoot a wedding - but I would never choose to. changing settings without a rear wheel and a top screen - no thanks.

It's a case of what you're used to though.

And better faster glass is a must for weddings, and a backup of course. You can rearrange a portrait shoot if your camera fails - standing up in the middle of a wedding service to announce you have to leave because your camera has died - not quite the same outcome.

 

[deadalus3000]

I think a few people have hit the nail on the head, would an upgraded body in a small stuido set up give you your investments worth...probably not.
If i was in your situation, and I was at one point...Id look at lenses...
Go for most bang for your buck...Primes...portrait work, your looking at 50mm 1.4 & 85mm 1.8, second hand togther woulnt cost you more than £430.
A 70-200 2.8 is going to set you back well over 3 times that amount.

 

[philwillmedia]

Yep, I've heard of the rise of Bridezilla from humble beginnings - but honestly she is a lovely genuine quiet, reserved, person and I she wouldn't even have a photographer there if she could get away with it.

Yep...it's always the quiet ones.

 

[philwillmedia]

Yep, I've heard of the rise of Bridezilla from humble beginnings - but honestly she is a lovely genuine quiet, reserved, person and I she wouldn't even have a photographer there if she could get away with it.

Yep...it's always the quiet ones.
They're all nice, quiet and un-assuming - until it comes to something to do with their wedding day.

 

[Glenn Mather]

For wedding work then the 5dII is probably the sensible choice, good low light capability, full frame sensor for nice DOF work and very useful custom pre-sets, making changing camera setings from in-church low light to outdoor sunlight a breeze!

Glenn
http://www.gmatherphotography.com

 

[Phil V]

The user needs a 5d no more than they need a Hasselblad. They're shooting one wedding for a friend. Sometimes I can see why people think wedding shooters live in a parallel universe.

 

[rbrown74]

I think a few people have hit the nail on the head, would an upgraded body in a small stuido set up give you your investments worth...probably not.
If i was in your situation, and I was at one point...Id look at lenses...
Go for most bang for your buck...Primes...portrait work, your looking at 50mm 1.4 & 85mm 1.8, second hand togther woulnt cost you more than £430.
A 70-200 2.8 is going to set you back well over 3 times that amount.

Looking to expand my capabilities for more outdoor work as well though but good points.

Yep...it's always the quiet ones.
They're all nice, quiet and un-assuming - until it comes to something to do with their wedding day.

This isnt a young girl - almost 40 so I dont think a personality swing is going to break out anytime soon now. Point noted though.

For wedding work then the 5dII is probably the sensible choice, good low light capability, full frame sensor for nice DOF work and very useful custom pre-sets, making changing camera settings from in-church low light to outdoor sunlight a breeze!

Deal! now find me one for £700 Seriously, I'd love to but buying that plus lenses, converting the workshop to a studio and getting an extra light plus backdrops would be impossible financially and like I said earlier there isnt megabucks to be made around here. I merely just wanted to know would a 650D perform as well as a 7d or 60D really as long as I was aware of its shortcomings.

The one wedding I'm doing isnt a sufficient enough reason to purchase a 5D but I'd like to make sure I leave myself decent enough equipment to tackle most situations that come my way - ie. large group shots indoors (eg. badly lit school gyms) location shoots etc.. henace why I'd like to upgrade the 450d for something with a better low light capability.

Thanks for all the comments about lenses - I will definitely be upgrading the glass too.

 

[rbrown74]

The user needs a 5d no more than they need a Hasselblad. They're shooting one wedding for a friend. Sometimes I can see why people think wedding shooters live in a parallel universe.

The voice of reason!

 

[Dave *]

I merely just wanted to know would a 650D perform as well as a 7d or 60D really as long as I was aware of its shortcomings.

The answer to that must be yes, other than the build, these are very similar cameras. So along as you can avoid using the camera as a club, or have a habit of dropping cameras I see no other problem with your intended use to have a 650D.

(and of course, there is no guarantee of the 60D or 7D operating successfully as a club either ).

 

[gman]

The wedding part seems to have made this rather important part invisible:

Basically things are building up in such a way that I feel the need to upgrade my camera, as once out of the home studio I can struggle, especially in low light situations and I'd like to do more outdoor portraiture too.

The difference between the crop bodies and full frame for low light is pretty big. You can get a 5D for £500 as well

 

[rbrown74]

The answer to that must be yes, other than the build, these are very similar cameras. So along as you can avoid using the camera as a club, or have a habit of dropping cameras I see no other problem with your intended use to have a 650D.

(and of course, there is no guarantee of the 60D or 7D operating successfully as a club either ).

Will refrain from battering clients in future.

The wedding part seems to have made this rather important part invisible:

The difference between the crop bodies and full frame for low light is pretty big. You can get a 5D for £500 as well

Hmmm.. this is interesting! I've never really looked at 5d's at all - I assumed that I'd have to look at a 5D Mk2 to get something that wasnt too old! :shrug:

 

[gman]

The main difference between the 5D and the MkII is the resolution, but anything above 10MP is ample so I wouldn't worry too much about that. The AF system is the same on both, it's not amazing but there's gazillions of wedding photographers and portrait photographers who use the 5D MkII (and previously the original) and they manage fine.

Obviously you'll have to sell any EF-S lenses but the classic 5D really is the cheapest way into full frame territory with the added bonus that it does produce nice results. I loved the images it produced and miss mine. It worked flawlessly all the time

 

[Dave *]

Hmmm.. this is interesting! I've never really looked at 5d's at all - I assumed that I'd have to look at a 5D Mk2 to get something that wasnt too old! :shrug:

It appears that the 5D launched in 2005 and the mark2 launched in 2008, so chances are any original 5D will be between 4 and 7 years old. I don't know if I would want to rely on such an old body for commercial use (unless you intend buying 2 and so having back up).

Would be nasty to be half way through a wedding (even for a friend or family member) and have the shutter fail.

 

[trencheel303]

Pro use = it makes you money

Doesn't matter what you use (although people might look down on your camera being the same as their uncle Pete's. etc..)

There are plenty of "uncle Pete" types that use cameras like a 5D though, my Dad has one and has serious L lens envy, doesn't make him a pro photog though. Also when are people going to get a chance to properly examine the little letters on the camera saying what version no. it is...

 

[gman]

It appears that the 5D launched in 2005 and the mark2 launched in 2008, so chances are any original 5D will be between 4 and 7 years old. I don't know if I would want to rely on such an old body for commercial use (unless you intend buying 2 and so having back up).

Would be nasty to be half way through a wedding (even for a friend or family member) and have the shutter fail.

The shutter is usually the main thing to worry about and a camera which is a year old could also have a shutter about to fail. But I agree about backups regardless of camera, especially if used commercially. The only second hand item I'm wary about is speedlites as I would be worried it would have been bashed about, hammered to hell or regularly overheated!

 

[rbrown74]

It appears that the 5D launched in 2005 and the mark2 launched in 2008, so chances are any original 5D will be between 4 and 7 years old. I don't know if I would want to rely on such an old body for commercial use (unless you intend buying 2 and so having back up).

Would be nasty to be half way through a wedding (even for a friend or family member) and have the shutter fail.

Agreed! I had a quick look after my post at the 5d's and decided it's just too old to go for - given modern advances in tech the 650d wont be a million miles off the 5d (dont want to start a debate about comparing the two!!)

There are plenty of "uncle Pete" types that use cameras like a 5D though, my Dad has one and has serious L lens envy, doesn't make him a pro photog though. Also when are people going to get a chance to properly examine the little letters on the camera saying what version no. it is...

Well said and I wholeheartedly agree.

The shutter is usually the main thing to worry about and a camera which is a year old could also have a shutter about to fail. But I agree about backups regardless of camera, especially if used commercially. The only second hand item I'm wary about is speedlites as I would be worried it would have been bashed about, hammered to hell or regularly overheated!

I only feel comfortable with careful buying of second hand lenses - dont think I'd risk a second hand body unless it was nearly new and known history to be honest. Good points about speedlites!

 

[gman]

Agreed! I had a quick look after my post at the 5d's and decided it's just too old to go for - given modern advances in tech the 650d wont be a million miles off the 5d (dont want to start a debate about comparing the two!!)

Probably just a few hundred thousand miles

I only feel comfortable with careful buying of second hand lenses - dont think I'd risk a second hand body unless it was nearly new and known history to be honest. Good points about speedlites!

I know what you mean, although many shops will still give a good warranty with second hand gear. Have you thought about the 0% interest route either via Jessops or through a credit card and go for a newer camera?

 

[rbrown74]

Just to wrap up this thread - I brought my camera into Jessops and took some pictures with similar settings on it and the 650d. The difference is huge - far more detail captured in low light situations and just feels quicker and sharper in operation.

Ended up ordering one a couple of days later at Digital Rev as the price differential was huge between them and Jessops! Next step will be lenses!!