Dilemma???

redmonkee

redmonkee

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PHILIP
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Sorry i've not posted much on here lately but i'm struggling to make my mind up on a dilemma I have:thinking: Sorry if its a bit of a long one:gag:

As you guys know I spent last year shooting Farsley AFC in order to put together a portfolio in my attempts to make it as a sports photographer. Having put a folio together I emailed it to a few agencies who offered constructive criticism on how I need to get more variety in my folio and not just the action shots.

However having emailed my folio to Media Image on the advice of a couple of guys on here I was assured by Andi (the guy who runs Media Image) that he would take me on next season and start me off with a couple of preseason games. Excited by this I've been eagerly awaiting my contract from MI.

Now it seems that plan is dead in the water due to not having contact with him all summer.

Anyway my dilemma is do I go back to shooting Farsley for another season in order to improve my portfolio in the areas advised by the other agencies or do I cut a loss and sell my gear?

I know this may seem a bit drastic, but the thing is I started shooting sports when i split from a long term relationship and it has been fantastic as its got me out of the house and given me a new lease of life with the photography.

Now though I am in a very happy relationship with my new lady and i'm not sure if I have the passion to commit to making it as a sports tog. The problem i Have is I want to save for a deposit on a house and I have so much money tied up in my gear which would really go a long way towards the deposit, and I am aware that the longer I keep and use my current gear the more it will drop in value.

If I knew I could make it to an agency after another year of shooting at Farsley then I'd probably stick it out, but I just don't know.:bang:

Sorry if this is a bit of a waffle, but any thoughts and advice are greatly appreciated :thumbs:

Phil
 
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Give Andi a call and see where things are going, the summer months not much happens in the world of football unless you want to take photos of the groundsman cutting the grass or laying a new pitch? The new agencies are the ones shooting footballers while they are away on their hollidays.

Andi may be waiting till things start happening the preseason stuff doesnt start till about the 2nd week in July. I wouldn't know how early stuff gets dished out though.

But you say you want to save for a deposit, work would help that so I would chase the guy up before I sold the kit you never know where the photography will take you. well probably spending money on new kit
 
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I see what you're saying mate but realistically how much money could one make if in a year if shooting on spec? Thats what I'd need to weigh up against the current value of all my gear.

I'd love to work for myself like Tony (Kipax) does but I'm just not sure where to start on this front. I've tried contacting papers in my area to see if they are interested in my shots and they are....provided they're free:shrug:
 
I don't think Tony makes most of his money shooting for the papers (maybe I'm wrong), going from his website he gets to do a lot of shooting other stuff where he is paid to turn up then sells prints, he is always out shooting something. He works very hard at what he does and seemingly does very well at it. His shooting ASFC seems to be a minor part of what he does. I don't know any one else who works as hard as he does it would be great if we could all copy the kipax plan but he has it nailed in this area but he has been working at it for a few years so its going to take a lot to get to the same level he is at. and Im not talking the quality of i#his work, its the way he works and the contacts he has built up over the years.
 
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Working 'on spec' is tough - with the big agencies covering most games worth mentioning.. and you really do need to get a decent amount photos published to make it worth it.
(the blog article linked in the last reply is a good read!!)

There probably are freelancers who do make a decent living shooting 'on spec' - but every one of those.. there is another 10-20 who don't.

If you do get your foot in the door with the Agency - and get to go on 'on spec' jobs through out the year.. I'd still advice to keeping another revenue of income.

Personally I do my 'on spec' games when they match with paid jobs - or on days when I don't have anything else on.

The 'problem' with Championship/Rugby/Premier League games is that there are TOO MANY photographers there. I know the holy grail of 'premier league license' is great once you have it.. but still, you'll be there at Stamford Bridge, Villa Park.. sitting with another 20-40 photographers.. and lets face it.. there are bound to be many others who are 'on spec' there.. plus you probably have a tog from local paper, away paper....
So your chances of getting published are on the hope that you'll catch something the 'big' agency guys didn't get.. although the papers do seem to use small agency/freelance images every now and then..

Making it to the books of an agency is just the first step.. and doesn't guarantee money (well depending on how the agency is question works)...
 
Don't just give it up, you may look back on that decision later in life a few years down the line and regret it, maybe take a break if things don't work out or even try shooting at a different place to give you more of a challenge aswell as more work for portfolio

I wouldn't just cut losses however as its something you may regret later, I know a few years back I bought property and cut down on my kit due to lack of use, now a few years on I wish I had have kept certain parts of my kit as getting it back now I need it was more difficult and more expensive
 
Phil - I think you are being a bit premature...

As Little John mentioned you need to give Andi a call. I think it's going to be another month or so before the warm-up games get going.

Then work you b*llocks off at it for 6 months (with understanding of the BH of course).

You will then be in a better position to assess

1) Skill level - are you at a decent enough level to keep getting work with the agency.
2) Money - are you earning enough to make it worthwhile (see #3 for worthwhile).
3) Better Half - has she left you yet?
4) Is there money left over to put towards the mortgage (after tax, insurance, bit towards new gear, taking the BH out, car wear and tear etc etc)?

Your gear wont have lost that much by the end of winter.

You may be in a position then that by selling your gear you can actually get the house you want. Interest rates and houses prices wont stay this low for ever.

More banks are now doing LTV rates of 90% (rather than the 85% of a few months ago).

I am not a financial advisor. I would advice you to go and see one. Go and see one in the next month or so whilst waiting for pre-season games.

I don't want to seam downbeat. Just be realistic and thing about priorities.
 
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what you have not made plain is if you are working for MI is it on a pay on usage basis and if thats the case you could go all season and not get a published pic so you have then lost money with the travel etc because you would be serprised who turns up to game at the lowest level [ i did a game at kidderminster and PA were there]
IMO if you are working on that basis better stop at farsley and try sell to the local papers of the team they are playing [i know its hard but thats the nature of the beast] and try get your own licience.
 
Some great advice on here guys and I really appreciate you all taking the time to help me out.

If I did get work shooting for MI it would be on spec so I am under no illusions that this would only be the first step. But my way of thinking was atleast I would have a chance of earning money (however small) cos at the moment I am producing good images for Farsley AFC and getting nothing in return.

It wouldn't be too bad if I made money from print sales but during all last season I probably sold £20 worth of prints so thats a no go.

Robin thanks for the mortgage advice. We wouldn't be getting a mortgage for a couple of years yet, heck if I was lacking £8000 to put down on the house i'd have sold my gear in a shot but as it is we're both just saving like mad so it'll take a couple of years to get the amount required.

Maybe I need to go on the Kipax school of marketing in order to maximise my revenue from photography!
 
Hi Phil. Sounds like a bit of a dilemma. Without wishing to pry, if you already have a 'proper' job to pay the bills now, is there any reason you can't continue to shoot, keep at the agencies, edge your foot in the door, earn a bit perhaps from the media? If you love what you'e doing and have already spent the dosh on the equipment, seems a bit premature to think of selling it all.

PS I know what you mean, I'd like to take what I do a bit further, but keep meeting fences and brick walls ...
 
Photodiva said:
Hi Phil. Sounds like a bit of a dilemma. Without wishing to pry, if you already have a 'proper' job to pay the bills now, is there any reason you can't continue to shoot, keep at the agencies, edge your foot in the door, earn a bit perhaps from the media? If you love what you'e doing and have already spent the dosh on the equipment, seems a bit premature to think of selling it all.

PS I know what you mean, I'd like to take what I do a bit further, but keep meeting fences and brick walls ...
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Yeah Carol I see what you mean. I do have a proper job which gets me a decent wage so in answer to that question then yes I could keep at it and see if I make something out of it.

It's just when I think of how much money the gear is worth then add that onto my savings, it puts me that much closer to the deposit lol!
 
Phil,

If the deposit can wait, and that means your other half is happy with that situation. Hold out for another season. You dont know if MI are going to be back in touch or not, I'd give them a ring to clear up the current situation. Farsley have just been promoted so they will be up against teams far better that the NCL Premier teams they were thrashing last season, this will allow you to shoot at a slightly higher level and who knows where things will be at the end of next season.

If though, you other half is wanting the house of her dreams and the value of your kit will get it sooner, you have to go for it...I think you have already eluded to this in your earlier posts.
 
Tugster said:
Phil,

If the deposit can wait, and that means your other half is happy with that situation. Hold out for another season. You dont know if MI are going to be back in touch or not, I'd give them a ring to clear up the current situation. Farsley have just been promoted so they will be up against teams far better that the NCL Premier teams they were thrashing last season, this will allow you to shoot at a slightly higher level and who knows where things will be at the end of next season.

If though, you other half is wanting the house of her dreams and the value of your kit will get it sooner, you have to go for it...I think you have already eluded to this in your earlier posts.
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Hi Tug

In all honesty my girlfriend doesn't want me to give up on my dream. All these thought have been running around in my head without consulting her to be honest.

You're right though about clearing up the situation with Media Image so i'll give them a ring this week. As for Farsley that is a very good point you've made, so perhaps one more season with them wouldn't hurt
 
Well it will also give you more time to think the whole plan out and also build up the folio to where you want it.
 
Phil, I'm sort of thinking the same as you I would love to make money from photography that means I could do it full time but it just doesn't. Now if I was full time I would throw myself at it just like Tony make contacts with anyone and everyone who buys photos, local kids leauges, cricket teams, sports events even none sports events anything that I can shoot gotta be outdoors for me with a 500D/450D combo but there are plenty of options there. I love his trick of phoning the papers from the visiting teams so they don't send a photographer he covers both teams genius. (he will be getting a big head reading this)

But after only just getting a proper job (self employed for the last 7/8 years) I am now trying to build my savings back up for a deposit on a house and plan to try and get the photography going at evenings and weekends, its tough sat at the side of a cricket pitch at weekends in the sun/rain even tonight I am going to the club I cover for an under 13's game just on the chance I will get some thing out of it. In the winter I hope to get to the local kids football league games shoot what ever I can. I don't plan on going for newspapers, parents are the customers for me. When I was self employed I had so much time during the week to do stuff weekends just merged as one but now working full time weekends are important and the only time I get to myself so working weekends on photography I really want to see a return from it, Kids football will be easy its all early morning stuff but cricket its 7 hours normally.

Now the only thing I can see being an issue for you is the other half, is she going to be supportive of you spending saturdays and sundays away shooting and possible a few nights a week. Now if your making money then she probably will be very happy but if your sat shooting farsley FC earning nothing or shooting for the agency again on the chance of making somthing then she may not be so happy. But I think you would regret selling your kit, you will never get back to the same level kit wise without spending more than you get for it I always regret selling anything of any value unless I have replaced it with somthing better.
 
Hi John its quite a conundrum aint it :thinking:

I know the feeling of working full time then using the whole weekend shooting footy and cricket for little return. Like I say initially I loved it as it got me out of the house and stopped me moping about after my last long term relationship.

But now I want to make the most of time with my girlfriend when we have days off together. The plus side for me is that I work 9-5 during the week and my gf works shifts which means a lot of the weekends she is working which means I can do the photography.

I see what you're saying about selling the kit and I know i'd miss the gear once it's gone which is why I need to be 100% certain of what I'm doing.
 
Cheers for the mention guys :)

Little john has it right with me... I have nailed my area... its taken years and years to be honest...and thats with little or no competition.. Only just recently getting into the schools... Already do some college work.. Accrington Stanley is my biggest earner although never taken a penny off the club.. but both local papers pay me and I try to sell to the away team papers as well as send to nationals

I did a full day of athletics today.. nobody paying me... hopefully make some web sales.. its a tuesday and nothing else to photogrpah so its like going to a prem game on spec.. might make summat.. might not.. but to be honest i probably will amke money from it ..

You have to put full time into what i am doing not half... I ahve other ways of making money doing sport..it all adds up in the end.. but its not a fortune and its a lot of work... but i am at a stage in life where being happy with what i do is more important than making millions... so long as my bills are paid and theres food on the table and my family are happy.. thats all i need :)


Working for an agency on spec is not going to pay your bills.. (I am sure someone will prove me wrong and tell me x,y or z is) but the norm.. its not.. You get 70/30 in your favour of anyhting published.. if you get a decent shot in the sun or daily mirror you gte 70% of 100 to 150 quid... how often are you going to gte published in those papers when your up against the other agencies that send maybe two photographers to a game? Also work is limited to weekends and an odd week night..

So in my opinion.. working on spec for an agency isnt going to do you much good if your looking to make it full time... it will get you experience of course.. but not much else.. personaly I only ever did it a couple of times and that was to help out other people..
 
BTW my post isnt desgined to put you off.. although it reads like it is .... The point I really want to make is that working on spec for any agency should be a stepping stone....because it wont work as a career... you can go weeks if not months without anything published yet you paid to get to games.. Can you handle that just for the experience?
 
It is always great to hear Tony's thoughts (from the coal face so to speak).

I'm sure Gary works full time and works weekends at the photography. Maybe that is a more realistic goal than aiming to go full time.
 
KIPAX said:
21 matches in a season :) I was doing 25 matches a month for the last 3 months of the season :)
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Quality not quantity. Touché :D.

I'd love to do more but don't forget that there's lots of rugby and world custard pie championships dotted in amongst the footie. However I've committed to increasing my schedule significantly next season and doing midweek games as well as a couple at the weekends. Yes, I'm keeping my 400 and will be pitch side again. With the M9 as well...

My SLIK images blog post indicates the sort of earnings you can get on spec. Glad people have found that post useful as I found it very hard to come across similar info elsewhere.

Regarding the OPs dilemma - it's a tricky one. It's all about your own personal drive. If you want it enough, you'll find a way to do it. You'll make the opportunities happen and open up in front of you. You'll make the most of every contact you've got.

It's not about making money as you probably figured, but there is a massive upside. Having a portfolio of cool sports shots and tearsheets from national papers is a huge credibility asset that has led to lots more private work which pays for the sports gear. Also, it's very cool and you are doing something that not only other photographers dream of, but so do lots and lots of non photographers too.

If I were you, and with the support of your girlie, I'd stick with it and see how you get on. This time next year let's see where you are.
 
Tobers said:
If I were you, and with the support of your girlie, I'd stick with it and see how you get on. This time next year let's see where you are.
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Yep I think this is the best way to go.

Tobers keep doing the blog please. :clap:
 
bigrob said:
It is always great to hear Tony's thoughts (from the coal face so to speak).

I'm sure Gary works full time and works weekends at the photography. Maybe that is a more realistic goal than aiming to go full time.
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I do, its tough, so tough ive just had to sell my D3s because im going on short time and the photography doesnt pay the mortgage, i had also agreed a sale on my 400mm lens until i had a little accident with it and now im trying to get the money together to repair it, it still works 100%

Im currently using a gripped d700 and the 400mm but at some stage i maybe forced to get out all together, keeping a roof over my head is more important than making a few quid at weekends

Im still getting 1-2 games a week but that doesnt cover what i could pay off if i sold up, there is a glimmer of light for next season with something in the pipeline but if i cant get through the next couple of months on a 3 day week i will have to bail out, sell up and start panicking.

Some of my loss of earning potential is 100% down to the clowns who give their photos away for free, i used to be guaranteed £90 every week for a few photos from 1 amateur game on Saturday afternoon then some from a Championship game but the folks at the 2 trade papetrs simply refuse to pay for those anymore saying, and i quoue "why should we pay when we get them sent in for free" crap quality but at 72dpi on stock newsprint it doesn't matter, nowadays only covering the Super League pays unless you can sell direct to local and regional press which i do a little bit of.

So to all you numpties who like nothing more than to see your stuff in print with your name alongside it, a big thank you.
 
Holy ***** Gary that is horrendous news. Has really spoilt my day.

I am being made redundant after 17 years at the beginning of next year so I understand what you are saying about the mortgage. Mine is high and would make many on here weep (& it's only a 3 bed terrace in London). n.b. I could have moved with the company for a 25% pay cut and a £4k increase in fares - yeah right.

I'll keep my fingers crossed that work improves. If I win the lottery this weekend a brand new D3s will be winging it's way ooop north for you. I hope you'll always be here giving advice.

And as you poignantly point out - giving away for free to newspapers et al is costing jobs & devaluing the business. Remember my rant here http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=293561
 
Tobers said:
Quality not quantity. Touché :D.

It's not about making money as you probably figured, but there is a massive upside. Having a portfolio of cool sports shots and tearsheets from national papers is a huge credibility asset that has led to lots more private work which pays for the sports gear. Also, it's very cool and you are doing something that not only other photographers dream of, but so do lots and lots of non photographers too.

If I were you, and with the support of your girlie, I'd stick with it and see how you get on. This time next year let's see where you are.
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Cheers Andy I think this is the way I should go.

Tony I value your opinion and I dont see it as trying to put me off, just good honest advice as always :thumbs:

If I was a little older and had my mortgage I'd love to go heart and soul into the photography but until then I have to think about the money, so that means sticking with the day job and using photography to top up the wage. Which obviously is not ideal when trying to pursue sports photography.

Gary that's bad news mate and I hope things pick up for you buddy. You're too good a photographer to have to call it a day, and I am so glad I resisted giving images to the press for free earlier on on the season.
 
Gary Coyle said:
I do, its tough, so tough ive just had to sell my D3s because im going on short time and the photography doesnt pay the mortgage, i had also agreed a sale on my 400mm lens until i had a little accident with it and now im trying to get the money together to repair it, it still works 100%

Im currently using a gripped d700 and the 400mm but at some stage i maybe forced to get out all together, keeping a roof over my head is more important than making a few quid at weekends

Im still getting 1-2 games a week but that doesnt cover what i could pay off if i sold up, there is a glimmer of light for next season with something in the pipeline but if i cant get through the next couple of months on a 3 day week i will have to bail out, sell up and start panicking.

Some of my loss of earning potential is 100% down to the clowns who give their photos away for free, i used to be guaranteed £90 every week for a few photos from 1 amateur game on Saturday afternoon then some from a Championship game but the folks at the 2 trade papetrs simply refuse to pay for those anymore saying, and i quoue "why should we pay when we get them sent in for free" crap quality but at 72dpi on stock newsprint it doesn't matter, nowadays only covering the Super League pays unless you can sell direct to local and regional press which i do a little bit of.

So to all you numpties who like nothing more than to see your stuff in print with your name alongside it, a big thank you.
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Oh Gary, that is really really rotten. Sorry to hear that. Could you take a leaf out of Tony's book and diversify a bit, keep the camera and get work on the extra days you'll have? Hope you manage to weather the storm.
 
Well, I read this earlier this morning but couldn't reply as I had to go out.

I feel gutted for Phil, Gary and Rob.

Phil, I just want to reiterate what the others have said and give it another season and see what comes up and also with your girlfriend supporting you all the way...she's 24carat gold mate. I just want to wish you both good luck for the future...but give it another go mate, you deserve it with all the hard work you have put in.

Gary, what can I say, you've only got to look at your website to see the standard of your work....stunning. Its not fair, there are some real nasty ar$eholes out there who get away with murder....literally....and good honest people like yourself get crapped on.

I know its not much but I have got 2 D300s and I know its nothing special but there's one there if you wanted something till you get yourself back on your feet mate.

Rob, get your backside down to Southend RFC on the 27th August for the WP game and we can have a drinky poo's if your free.
 
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Hey guys, thanks for the support, these things are sent to test us and if we can get through the next few months i should be OK, the D3S has already gone to its new home and will be sadly missed, i had already agreed a sale on my 400mm lens but unfortunatly dropped it (dont ask) it still works 100% fine but needs a repair which i cant afford at the minute.

Martin, thanks very much for the offer but im OK at the minute, i still have my D700 and the 400mm and a 70-200mm and i figure ill be able to hold onto these for the time being.

The last 2 games in my Pro RL galleries were shot using the D700 and the 400mm plus 1.4x, the floodlit game at Warrington v St Helens was my first outing with the D700 as my only, and main camera, AF was a patchy and keeper rate was down quite a bit so i spent a day or so tinkering with the AF settings, i then covered a day game, Dewsbury v York and the D700 and 400mm and 1.4x was immense, a 99% keeper rate, (as good as the D3S) a lot of this will have been down to excellent lighting conditions but impressed all the same and probably why i see quite a few Getty shooters using 2 D700's
 
Hope things sort themselves out Gary and you get back to the way you were

From your posts it seems like you have things planned and are being realistic and sensible with your decisions which should bode well in the future

Good luck
 
Gary - that's a ****er. You're too good to be gone for ever that's for sure. Plus your portfolio will let you get back into it really quickly as soon as its possible. But you're right, keeping a roof over your head is more important than a few photos (sort of).
 
bigrob said:
Tobers keep doing the blog please. :clap:
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Thanks - will do. It's not just me, it's my pal Lee writing there as well. He just did the dawn Henley Swim on the Thames last weekend, plus he does all the winter sports stuff, lucky dude.
 
Yes I read and left a comment on his Henley one.
 
Sounds like everyone needs a big hug

:hug:
 
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