Digital Voice

[Plain Nev]

As marketing campaign it has to amount to something of a failure. We had a leaflet through our door to inform us that our landline was being discontinued. Well, that was news to me. Prior to that we hadn't heard a thing about it.

Okay, I get that all you have to do is plug your phone into the back of the router. But where is the signal going to come from? I presume there would have to be some sort of transmitter, but that isn't even touched upon. And of course how will this impact the bills? It's as clear as mud. Has anyone else had experience of Digital Voice?

 

[garryknight]

It's the same as all digital home phones. You make a call, it goes through the router, via the internet to someone else's router, and out of their phone. And vice versa. No other equipment needed. Everyone will switch sooner or later.

 

[Box Brownie]

To date, my perception is that it is the least known, publicised, discussed sea change to communications in the UK that is being rolled out on the quiet!

It is far from clear about:-
Exact rollout by area
Amount of advance notice
Support for the vulnerable e.g. those that need linked red button devices
etc!

 

[Plain Nev]

It's the same as all digital home phones. You make a call, it goes through the router, via the internet to someone else's router, and out of their phone. And vice versa. No other equipment needed. Everyone will switch sooner or later.

Do you mean to say that it connects to the Internet in the same manner a mobile phone would? Wouldn't you then be subject to the variable reception?

 

[garryknight]

Do you mean to say that it connects to the Internet in the same manner a mobile phone would? Wouldn't you then be subject to the variable reception?

It connects to the internet in the same way a computer does if the computer is plugged into the router. You speak into the phone, your voice is converted by the router into a digital signal, ie a stream of numbers; those numbers travel across the internet to the router at the home of the person you're calling, their router coverts it back into voice, and the person on the other end hears your voice through the phone.

So it depends on whether your router connects to the internet via a phone line, say with
Openreach or Virgin Media, or via a 4G or 5G connection. If it's 4G or 5G then it's subject to the router's connection to the cell mast and that might yield a variable connection. If your router is plugged into a phone socket then the data is either going down a copper cable or an optical fibre cable.

I don't know which ISP you're with or what kind of equipment you're using so I can't narrow it down any further.

 

[gramps]

Do you mean to say that it connects to the Internet in the same manner a mobile phone would? Wouldn't you then be subject to the variable reception?

...and don't mention phoning the emergency services if your mains power/router/connection/anything is down!
Should be a good time for alarm companies swapping out all of the redundant alarm communication equipment connected to telephone lines throughout the country.

 

[Mozthecat]

Do you mean to say that it connects to the Internet in the same manner a mobile phone would? Wouldn't you then be subject to the variable reception?

It simply sends the signals down the telephone line as a digital signal rather than an analogue one. By plugging the phone into the router, the router does the analogue to digital conversion both ways.

It is a mature technology as it’s been used in the corporate world for over 20 years for all types of premises and environment, and even my SME employer have been using such systems since 2010. I can count on one hand the number of “disruptive” events where it hasn’t worked within that time due to issues in the data centres that handle the calls.

The only real widespread downside to it is the BT analog exchanges currently have 1980’s big battery backup rooms based on lead acid batteries to power the local phone network
, and this is being removed as part of the roll out meaning no power no calls.
You can get around this at your end by using a ups to power your router and phone, but would still be stuck if the wider power grid is out, unlike now.

There is a lot of talk about analog alarm pendants and burglar alarms but the providers have know this is coming for a decade and have had time to get their act together….

 

[gramps]

There is a lot of talk about analog alarm pendants and burglar alarms but the providers have know this is coming for a decade and have had time to get their act together….

In terms of alarms, providers have had it covered for years, piggy-backing telephone line equipment with SIM based equipment.
However the cost of the switchover completely to SIM based equipment (inc rental, maintenance and/or monitoring charges) is not insignificant for the end user.

 

[lindsay]

...and in rural areas, especially hilly ones, SIM based equipment is not a complete panacea. The company I work for equips staff with mobile devices for tracking and job details, using SIMs that will use whatever network has the best connection, and there are still areas here in Northern Ireland with no signal. You can get the same effect in city canyons between high rise buildings.

 

[Box Brownie]

...and in rural areas, especially hilly ones, SIM based equipment is not a complete panacea. The company I work for equips staff with mobile devices for tracking and job details, using SIMs that will use whatever network has the best connection, and there are still areas here in Northern Ireland with no signal. You can get the same effect in city canyons between high rise buildings.

And not withstanding that a power outage could/would mean the mobile tower(s) also fail in such an outage.

 

[Box Brownie]

In terms of alarms, providers have had it covered for years, piggy-backing telephone line equipment with SIM based equipment.
However the cost of the switchover completely to SIM based equipment (inc rental, maintenance and/or monitoring charges) is not insignificant for the end user.

But which is the "fallback" at this stage and how robust would a service be if 100% reliant on SIM only i.e. no fallback

 

[Box Brownie]

It simply sends the signals down the telephone line as a digital signal rather than an analogue one. By plugging the phone into the router, the router does the analogue to digital conversion both ways.

It is a mature technology as it’s been used in the corporate world for over 20 years for all types of premises and environment, and even my SME employer have been using such systems since 2010. I can count on one hand the number of “disruptive” events where it hasn’t worked within that time due to issues in the data centres that handle the calls.

The only real widespread downside to it is the BT analog exchanges currently have 1980’s big battery backup rooms based on lead acid batteries to power the local phone network
, and this is being removed as part of the roll out meaning no power no calls.
You can get around this at your end by using a ups to power your router and phone, but would still be stuck if the wider power grid is out, unlike now.

There is a lot of talk about analog alarm pendants and burglar alarms but the providers have know this is coming for a decade and have had time to get their act together….

IIRC in regard to battery backup for the vulnerable with red button alarms.......the battery backup has quite short life, as little as one day (or less?)

Again the question of robustness in the digital voice system?

 

[Harlequin565]

My father in law is 93, has no interest in the internet, and won't go near an iPad. My wife has POA so we can talk to the phone companies and we are really struggling to keep him on a landline only, no broadband contract. He has a red panic button that will not (currently) work on any of the current setups we've looked at and in 2 years Openreach will be rolling out fibre in his area. He has a mobile which he leaves switched off (to save the battery) in a cupboard. Unfortunately, he's a minority and big business (which most of the telecoms companies are) aren't interested in the minority.

 

[gramps]

But which is the "fallback" at this stage and how robust would a service be if 100% reliant on SIM only i.e. no fallback

Both paths are fallback by different providers, the security use of SIM is done through a 'text-like' signal so less vulnerable than normal voice/data but by no means infallible.
Then you have the BT Redcare service which is totally line-based in it's basic form.

 

[lindsay]

And not withstanding that a power outage could/would mean the mobile tower(s) also fail in such an outage.

Which is exactly what happened to us in one of the recent storms, and to a lot of people locally including the vet's emergency service. Power off for days, mobile was off for about 18 hours. UPS ordered.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Which is exactly what happened to us in one of the recent storms, and to a lot of people locally including the vet's emergency service. Power off for days, mobile was off for about 18 hours. UPS ordered.

The move away from copper is going to kill people, at which time we will be deafened by the politicians shouting "I had nothing to do with it".

In any emergency, the self powered Public Switched Telephone Network (PSTN) is a life saver - the lights may go out but communications continue. Some ex-colleagues from British Telecom days are calling it "the charge of the brain dead brigade".

 

[Box Brownie]

Which is exactly what happened to us in one of the recent storms, and to a lot of people locally including the vet's emergency service. Power off for days, mobile was off for about 18 hours. UPS ordered.

Can I please ask which make - model UPS you bought?

 

[Box Brownie]

The move away from copper is going to kill people, at which time we will be deafened by the politicians shouting "I had nothing to do with it".

In any emergency, the self powered Public Switched Telephone Network (PSTN) is a life saver - the lights may go out but communications continue. Some ex-colleagues from British Telecom days are calling it "the charge of the brain dead brigade".

There is a distinct difference between something being done for public good (digital voice) and public welfare & care (analogue voice).

I have yet to see or learn what any government since the inception of digital voice has to say about it's resilience and any backup contingency robustness as a communications service let alone, a bit like air source heat pumps costs above the Government grant, the extra costs burden placed on potentially every single household to mitigate (as best they can?) how they would cope in a power outage such as @lindsay talks about!!!

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

... how they would cope in a power outage such as @lindsay talks about!!!

A very good question but one to which I fear we will receive no answer, until the first deaths hit the headlines.

 

[JohnMcL7]

For vulnerable users who only need a phone, BT will be offering a product called SOTAP:

Openreach Prep Alternative UK Analogue Style Phone Product

Openreach is developing an additional phone line product, which does NOT require a broadband connection to function and will be targetted at vulnerable and edge

www.ispreview.co.uk

The analogue voice switch off is frequently blamed as being a bad business decision or poor political decision but the simple truth is it's not a decision at all, it's not viable for the manufacturers to keep producing and supporting equipment for a decreasing number of users so communications companies cannot continue to provide analogue services. Some countries have already completed the switch off and others are working on it the same as the UK. The problem isn't the ceasing of analogue voice services (which were far from resilient in the first place) but providing better solutions with modern technologies for vulnerable users and emergency situations.

 

[lindsay]

Can I please ask which make - model UPS you bought?

I ordered a Powersmart 800VA from a form called UPS Centre, however they took the money and after several weeks I chased for a delivery date, at which point they told me it would be 4 to 6 weeks, so I said ok well it could come next week, to which they said no, it's 4-6 weeks from today. So I cancelled the order and asked for a refund, which they said they were processing and when I chased that after a week they said they were dealing with it. A week later still nothing, so I chased again and after being passed around several teams, I was told to get my bank to process a charge back, which they are now endeavoutrring to do. So I very strongly recommend NOT buying from UPS Centre.
I'm now looking at them on Amazon reluctantly but looking for alternative suppliers in Northern Ireland to avoid heavy delivery charges. But I shall be ordering one asap.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

For vulnerable users who only need a phone, BT will be offering a product called SOTAP:

...which looks like vapourware, or close thereto.

...so communications companies cannot continue to provide analogue services.

The Analogue system was taken over and developed by the GPO as part of our national infrastructure. Over the last hundred years or so, it's been hardened with the possibility of war and especially nuclear war, in mind.

Is the replacement being built to the same standard? Well, all we know at the moment is that the replacement will rely on the national grid and not on the analogue system's own generators.

The problem isn't the ceasing of analogue voice services (which were far from resilient in the first place)

That's an interesting assertion, which sounds questionable to me.

... but providing better solutions with modern technologies for vulnerable users and emergency situations.

So, instead of the self powered and proven system, we're going to rely on a non-self powered system, which relies on the general electricity supply system, to supply emergency communications. When that fails, what will power the fibre system?

 

[Box Brownie]

...which looks like vapourware, or close thereto.

The Analogue system was taken over and developed by the GPO as part of our national infrastructure. Over the last hundred years or so, it's been hardened with the possibility of war and especially nuclear war, in mind.

Is the replacement being built to the same standard? Well, all we know at the moment is that the replacement will rely on the national grid and not on the analogue system's own generators.

That's an interesting assertion, which sounds questionable to me.

So, instead of the self powered and proven system, we're going to rely on a non-self powered system, which relies on the general electricity supply system, to supply emergency communications. When that fails, what will power the fibre system?

This is perhaps the key matter.....as in communications are arguably(?) a critical infrastructure service i.e. required especially at times of national crisis/emergency.

At one time it was all about an EMP wiping out all electronic methods of communication. Yes, military systems should be as immune as it is possible to make them but civilian infrastructure equally needs robustness & resilience built in by design.

With cyber warfare becoming a significant 21c threat, what those aforementioned criteria by design

 

[ancient_mariner]

The Analogue system was taken over and developed by the GPO as part of our national infrastructure. Over the last hundred years or so, it's been hardened with the possibility of war and especially nuclear war, in mind.

Is the replacement being built to the same standard? Well, all we know at the moment is that the replacement will rely on the national grid and not on the analogue system's own generators.

It's built to offer value for money in peacetime.

 

[gramps]

I wonder if it will have 10% of the reliability of those copper wires draped all over the country, surviving despite the seeming vulnerability.

 

[Nikon f1.8]

We have never had a landline for over two years, don't see the point as we both have mobiles and so does the rest of the family.

 

[lindsay]

There doesn't need to be a copper wire infrastructure, but there does need to be a resilient comms infrastructure that can continue after power outages and EMP-type attack. Military-standard HF/VHF comms comes to mind, where proven X25 packet switched networking can work successfully albeit with limited capacity due to probably time-division multiplexing rather than frequency-division due to limited bandwidth. But there may be other options:eg using light as a carrier (similar to fibre-optic) but between geographical beacon points, maybe at laser frequencies.

 

[Box Brownie]

I ordered a Powersmart 800VA from a form called UPS Centre, however they took the money and after several weeks I chased for a delivery date, at which point they told me it would be 4 to 6 weeks, so I said ok well it could come next week, to which they said no, it's 4-6 weeks from today. So I cancelled the order and asked for a refund, which they said they were processing and when I chased that after a week they said they were dealing with it. A week later still nothing, so I chased again and after being passed around several teams, I was told to get my bank to process a charge back, which they are now endeavoutrring to do. So I very strongly recommend NOT buying from UPS Centre.
I'm now looking at them on Amazon reluctantly but looking for alternative suppliers in Northern Ireland to avoid heavy delivery charges. But I shall be ordering one asap.

I think there was another thread here about UPS choices used but cannot find it yet.

Having said I found a listing here

https://www.broadbandbuyer.com/store/surge-protection-ups/uninterruptible-power-supply/?t=1048&sort=1

Though it has been some years since I bought anything from Broadbandbuyer I found them a good company to buy from.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

There doesn't need to be a copper wire infrastructure, but there does need to be a resilient comms infrastructure that can continue after power outages and EMP-type attack.

I agree.

The real question about the digital system is just how vulnerable is it? Set up properly, as a network with multiple paths, it would indeed be less vulnerable than copper, which is generally set up as single point to single point. However, so far as I can see, the intention is to have a single point to single point system in most cases, so a break at that level will throw away the advantage of being part of a network.

But there may be other options:eg using light as a carrier (similar to fibre-optic) but between geographical beacon points, maybe at laser frequencies.

A similar idea was being thrown around about 20 years ago, when I was doing a lot of work in telecoms (albeit on the front end of most sites) and I thought at the time it was a good one. I was designing an engineering time scheduler at one point and the idea of using the electricity infrastructure for repeaters was mentioned a few times, when I was fact gathering. That idea was dropped because there would be a need for a lot more liason with the electricity grid people, who would definitely have opinions about telecoms personel clambering around on pylons!

 

[Faldrax]

Anyone who is with Virgin as their ISP and has a 'landline' is already using this technology - VOIP (Voice over IP), and anyone else who has broadband can get a 'landline' via one of a variety of companies who supply VOIP services - you get a small box which plugs into your home network and the phone plugs into that.

As already mentioned, you do lose service if the power goes down, and the emergency services do need to be notified of the address for the VOIP number (as it it not tied to a physical location, so they need an address linked to it in the event of an emergency). If you have an existing home phone number this can be 'ported' to the VOIP service, or you can get a new number (which may not have your local area code).

On the plus side (depending on your provider) you may get additional services included. I'm with Vonage, and they provide a moble app that can be set to receive calls to the 'landline' number - so if you are going away you can effectively take your landline with you - you can even make a call via the app and the recipient will see your 'landline' number as the caller.

 

[4wd]

It's basically like wifi calling on a mobile - which is all we have as there's no actual mobile signal.
Using (my) mobile like that is far cheaper than landline anyway so never use it except occasional incoming.