Difficult shooting conditions - advice please

Alanem

Alanem

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Alan
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My daughter is in a choir (adults) and the other night I was trying to take some pictures of their performance. They were on a stage with a black backcloth and all wearing long black dresses, the hall was lit with fluorescent tubes at a low level and there were no spotlights or stage lights of any kind as it's only a village hall. I didn't use flash as I didn't want to spoil the show or dazzle the choir and I selected shutter priority as I was only able to hand-hold, the hall was a bit too crowded to use a tripod. The camera chose ISO3200 and I went with that but the pictures are dark and grainy, I've upped the levels in PS Elements but the pictures are still grainy.

So, what settings should I have used and are there any PhotoShop tricks I can use to improve the images - I have PSE 9.

Any advice please?

Alan
 
Can you post a photo?
 
Using shutter priority is giving the camera control and in this situation thats not good..

I use Av a lot and sumetimes shutter priority.. so believe me I am not a manual only for everyhting person..

However for this you did need to be in manual

You know its dark.. so you have to open your lens as much as you can f2.8 if you ahve it.. if not then as open as you can.. You know your going to need high ISO so set that as high as you can... That only leaves shutter speed.. set and take a shot.. look at the picture and the histogram and set the shutter spoeed accordingly until you gte a decently lit shot...

Dont fixate on what you can do in the software...yes you will need to post process.. but getting it as near as possible in camera is mor important..

so manual.. open the lens as much as you can.. up the iso as much as you can then change the shutter speed until you get a decently lit picture.... get as close as you can and fill the frame so your not cropping as much... shoot in RAW maybe for more noicse control afterwards..
 
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It sounds like your photo's were quite under exposed, so upping the exposure by quite a bit will cause a massive about of noise, the best thing is to post up a shot as an example :thumbs:
 
Your aim is to keep the iso as low as possible, so shoot as wide and as slow as you can get away with. You need to know how slow you can shoot at the focal length before hand by testing at home. Then shoot with the a wide aperture and the slowest shutter speed you've managed when you did your test. If the gowns are underexposing the images try spot metering the face and add +1 stop then view the histogram and tweak from there.
 
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I think shutter priority is ok in this situation as the camera is going to go to max aperture and ISO anyway (based on your pre-selected defaults).

As the camera is maxed out on its settings the problem, sorry to say, is the kit. I assume you're using the kit lens in which case it simply isn't fast enough to use in those conditions - you need at least an f/2.8 zoom or even better would be a fast prime (focal length depending on your viewing position).

edit: by the way, were you shooting in RAW - that will help you extract the bast form the pictures.
 
Nawty said:
I think shutter priority is ok in this situation as the camera is going to go to max aperture and ISO anyway (based on your pre-selected defaults).

As the camera is maxed out on its settings the problem, sorry to say, is the kit. I assume you're using the kit lens in which case it simply isn't fast enough to use in those conditions - you need at least an f/2.8 zoom or even better would be a fast prime (focal length depending on your viewing position).

edit: by the way, were you shooting in RAW - that will help you extract the bast form the pictures.
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Got to agree with this. Tv, Av, manual, whatever, if the camera is maxed out on everything (and it sounds like it was) and you can't get a usable shutter speed, there isn't a lot more that can be done with the kit available. If there is anything to brace yourself from to help minimise camera shake that will help.
 
Nawty said:
I think shutter priority is ok in this situation as the camera is going to go to max aperture and ISO anyway (based on your pre-selected defaults).

QUOTE]

the only trouble with that is the black background and the black dresses ,,,its going to play havoc with the metering ,,,,either use exposure comp or go manual ,,,im with kipax on this one ,, manual
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donutagain said:
Nawty said:
I think shutter priority is ok in this situation as the camera is going to go to max aperture and ISO anyway (based on your pre-selected defaults).

QUOTE]

the only trouble with that is the black background and the black dresses ,,,its going to play havoc with the metering ,,,,either use exposure comp or go manual ,,,im with kipax on this one ,, manual
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The tendency with a black background would be that the meter will overexpose but the OP said his shots were underexposed which suggests the camera ran out of options. Unless the OP was using a faster shutter speed than necessary, manual isn't going to help.
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so the op used shutter priotity and it didnt work.. so others inc me offer different advice on different ways to try..

just dont understand why people then post saying shutter priority will be OK? he already tried that!
 
Alanem said:
My daughter is in a choir (adults) and the other night I was trying to take some pictures of their performance. They were on a stage with a black backcloth and all wearing long black dresses, the hall was lit with fluorescent tubes at a low level and there were no spotlights or stage lights of any kind as it's only a village hall. I didn't use flash as I didn't want to spoil the show or dazzle the choir and I selected shutter priority as I was only able to hand-hold, the hall was a bit too crowded to use a tripod. The camera chose ISO3200 and I went with that but the pictures are dark and grainy, I've upped the levels in PS Elements but the pictures are still grainy.

So, what settings should I have used and are there any PhotoShop tricks I can use to improve the images - I have PSE 9.

Any advice please?

Alan
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Sounds to me like they found the right conditions to prevent anyone recording the event photographically! Did you try recording the sound? Choirs are usually about the noise rather than the visual.
 
KIPAX said:
so the op used shutter priotity and it didnt work.. so others inc me offer different advice on different ways to try..

just dont understand why people then post saying shutter priority will be OK? he already tried that!
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Well one can still make adjustments in shutter priority. Like using a slower shutter speed...

By the way, I'm not saying the shutter priority is the right choice here, but it does sound like there simply isn't enough light so another mode isn't necessarily going to help. That said if the OP comes back and says he had his shutter set to 1/8000, I'll have egg all over my face.
 
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Thanks for the replies everyone,

I tend to agree with those who said it was metering, the kit was inside its' limits I think. I could have gone higher on the ISO but didn't want too much noise and the reason I went for shutter priority was to try and get the biggest aperture. I was using my 17-85 at f4.5 with a speed of 1/160 and focal length was reported as 33mm. I was fairly close, second row.
8148591354_f6e92f6306_k.jpg


They use this venue a lot so next time I think I will use a monopod and shoot manually. There are a few more shots on my photostream at Flickr, Alan Marr is the username.

Thanks,

Alan
 
Well, immediately you could drop the shutter speed to 1/60 - you should still be able to get steady shots at that focal length or at least drop it to 1/100. Also, if you wanted to make sure the aperture was wide open why not use aperture control?

That said, there doesn't look to be too much wrong with the picture - I'd rather expose for the faces in this situation. Maybe it could take half a stop of +ve exposure compensation but it isn't totally necessary.
 
Thanks for the advice, I think you're right and aperture control is the way to go next time. I'll also take my monopod and exposure compensate a bit on what the camera meters. I was hoping for a bit more detail but with all that black I suppose I should be gratefull they aren't worse. I will also try limiting the ISO to 1600.

Thanks

Alan
 
Your lens has IS, and shooting at 33mm, give or take, you could easily take the shutter speed far lower and still have visible camera shake held in check. No need for a monopod for that. However, you have to consider subject movement, so you have to be realistic about how low you can go. 1/60 should hopefully get you a few keepers and you could try slower if you dare. Just as an example, this was taken hand held at 1/10 with the same lens. Not too bad for a 100% crop....

20121103_100534_.JPG


As for metering and exposure modes, assuming the lighting is constant then I'd go for manual exposure and adjust until my exposures were consistently good. Be sure to check the histogram and look for blinkies, because in dim light the image on the back of the LCD will appear bright to you even if the shot is actually underexposed.

But really, whether you shoot manual, Av, Tv or P, at the end of the day there are only three exposure parameters to play with and whether it's you that sets them or the camera the lighting you have is the lighting you have and 1/60, f/4 and 1600 ISO is going to produce the same result regardless of who or what sets the values.

So, for manual shooting in this instance set aperture wide open, shutter speed to the slowest you can get away with (given considerations of shake and subject movement) and then raise the ISO until the exposures look good. It's actually quite simple. And remember that a noisy photo is better than a blurry one, so get that ISO up if you have to.
 
Thanks for the tips, all good advice and I'll give them a go next time,

Alan
 
If you can beg or borrow a 35mm f/1.8 (or faster) lens, that'll allow you to drop a stop or 2 on the ISO to reduce the noise and keep a high enough shutter speed - I would reckon that (if you can get them to stay still and stop flapping their lips!), you should get away with 1/50th" shutter speed, so should be able to keep a small enough aperture to get enough depth of field - test shots should tell you - or a press of the DoF preview button (if your camera has one).

You'll be extremely lucky (or proficient in raw processing) to keep much (if any) detail in the dresses - but the faces are what most people will want to see rather than the frocks!
 
p.s. One thing to watch for when your zoom lens has a variable maximum aperture, as yours does, is that when shooting wide open the aperture may change as you alter the focal length. This is fine if you're letting the camera take care of the shutter speed (or ISO) but if you'r shooting with manual exposure then you need to keep an eye out for that. You could find yourself slipping from f/4 to f/5.6 as you zoom in closer and that's a stop of light lost.

The 17-85 was my first lens, bought as a kit with my 30D, but after a year I upgraded to the 17-55/2.8 IS, which lost me some length but bought me a stop or more of speed on the aperture. It also made working with manual exposure a much simpler exercise.
 
Alanem said:
are there any PhotoShop tricks I can use to improve the images - I have PSE 9.
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Photoshop can help, as you can see from below there is a lot to bring out but inherently the shutter speed/movement has caused blur - stabilising the camera is going to make it much more possible to get something better to work with.



8148591354_f6e92f6306_k.jpg
 
It's hard to get 20 or so women in the same place to stand still.... :)
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there times when the conditions just won't allow for a good shot? Assuming the aptitude is wide open and the metering is correct av, tv, manual modes, are they really going to help a helpless situation of no light with hand held on a moving subject?

I realize that half the fun in this is to overcome whatever you are faced with in order to get the shot and its also very enjoyable to help out a fellow photographer but is it ok to just say "this shot is impossible"? I'm not saying that this shot falls into that category because I have not seen it yet but it got me thinking.
 
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=5091734&postcount=15

There you go, Shayne, a link to the relevant post where the picture has been posted for almost 24 hours. The post also contains the basic exposure information and the reported focal length used. From the look of the photograph, it's far from impossible, just a little tricky.

Alan, if you can't beg or borrow a 35mm f/1.8 (or faster), you can probably hire one - lensesforhire.co.uk is run by a fellow member on here and I believe he/they offer members a discount. No idea what the cost would be - maybe the choir could cover the hire cost since the shoot is for their benefit!
 
Thanks Nod, while it would be nice to have a faster lens I think it's a metering and settings problem for me. I'm not taking pictures in any official capacity, it's just that my daughter is in the choir and I get dragged along!

I'm going to try manual and keep checking the histogram and upping the ISO as suggested above.

Alan
 
Nod said:
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=5091734&postcount=15

There you go, Shayne, a link to the relevant post where the picture has been posted for almost 24 hours. The post also contains the basic exposure information and the reported focal length used. From the look of the photograph, it's far from impossible, just a little tricky.


Thanks for the link. The original pic would not open for me before but now it will. Like I said I was not saying that this was an impossible shot just asking the question if there is a situation where the shot is impossible. I do not recall seeing any threads where it was concluded that the shot was impossible. Sorry not trying to hijack the thread.
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No problem, Shayne - we all get problems where images refuse to show.

Alan, as Gramps's edit has shown, there is a lot of detail hidden in the dark areas of that pic - maybe a situation to shoot in raw and spend a while in PP rescuing whatever can be rescued. The original seems fairly well exposed for the faces, so not sure it's a metering problem. There is a fair amount of softness though, more apparent at the larger size. Can't see any "wandering hotspots" which would (to me) suggest camera shake - it looks (to me) more like the focus has missed slightly.

Many years ago (at school) I used to do some theatre photography and it was always a problem finding enough light! I also had the problem of having to shoot from 1/2 way back since the luvvies were being put off by the sound of the shutter/mirror. With a 135mm lens as my longest! So, 400 ASA film, pushed to 1600 then enlarged enormously - not an ideal situation.
 
shaylou said:
Like I said I was not saying that this was an impossible shot just asking the question if there is a situation where the shot is impossible.
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Yes, there are going to be shots that are impossible. If there is pretty much no light (with no option for flash or other artificial lighting) and the subject is moving (even slowly).
When you run out of aperture and ISO you are only left with shutter speed and if that has to be 2 seconds to get the exposure then the shot would be impossible if the subject moves
 
Surely an in body stabilized camera which claims a 4 stop advantage should in theory be able to cope with 2 seconds using an 8mm lens on FF? :rofl:

(Yes, I know this is the real world and no stabilization system can cope with gross movements!)
 
ernesto said:
When you run out of aperture and ISO you are only left with shutter speed and if that has to be 2 seconds to get the exposure then the shot would be impossible if the subject moves
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That was my thinking behind using shutter priority, I wanted to freeze any movement.

Alan
 
shaylou said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there times when the conditions just won't allow for a good shot? Assuming the aptitude is wide open and the metering is correct av, tv, manual modes, are they really going to help a helpless situation of no light with hand held on a moving subject?

I realize that half the fun in this is to overcome whatever you are faced with in order to get the shot and its also very enjoyable to help out a fellow photographer but is it ok to just say "this shot is impossible"? I'm not saying that this shot falls into that category because I have not seen it yet but it got me thinking.
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There's an English phrase - there's no such thing as bad weather, just the wrong clothes.

Photographically speaking - there's no such thing as an impossible shot, just the wrong gear. There are caveats, the photographer needs the gear and an element of control, so in the case of the OP, a camera with high ISO ability and a fast enough lens. If even then the light was too low, he needs to add light, that would mean better stage lighting or flash - but that would need the cooperation of the management of the venue. This means the photo's have to be important enough to justify the cost ,in the case of the OP - probably not.

Long answer - but it's where modern photography has got us, with great fast lenses and better high ISO cameras we just expect to be able to get pictures where it would be considered impossible with film.
 
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