Did ISIS down a passenger jet?

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cambsno said:
Even so, if it was IS that is pretty brave/stupid of them, can see Putin going in extra hard if thats the case!
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But going into a fight like a blind drunk traveller is neither clever nor destined to improve the situation.

We can see what he'd do, it doesn't make him in any way superior for doing so (as some have suggested). In fact it's more likely to be totally moronic.
 
It's a funny old world. There are people who mocked the idea of Cameron taking direct action against IS ("Like in Iraq and Afghanistan? That went well..." etc) but when Putin has a go, he's lauded as some kind of hero with a no-nonsense attitude.
:thinking:
 
ZoneV said:
It's a funny old world. There are people who mocked the idea of Cameron taking direct action against IS ("Like in Iraq and Afghanistan? That went well..." etc) but when Putin has a go, he's lauded as some kind of hero with a no-nonsense attitude.
:thinking:
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Send troops, send aircraft, just not ours :D
 
If I remember correctly, our government were hell bent on bombing Assad - not ISIL.
 
Not sure if we are in Syria apart from when we loan out our pilots to the lesser nations (US). The Russians are hell bent on destroying the Assad rebels as they favour Assad as he is anti West. It can only end it complete harmony!
 
andy700 said:
If I remember correctly, our government were hell bent on bombing Assad - not ISIL.
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A couple of years ago parliament voted against plans to launch strikes against Assad, but more recently it has been deliberating strikes against IS in Syria.

"Downing Street has decided that RAF involvement in coalition airstrikes against Isis targets should not be extended from Iraq. There are fears that the prime minister would be weakened on the world stage by a second parliamentary defeat over military action in Syria."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/02/cameron-drops-plans-commons-vote-airstrikes-isis-syria
 
ZoneV said:
A couple of years ago parliament voted against plans to launch strikes against Assad, but more recently it has been deliberating strikes against IS in Syria.

"Downing Street has decided that RAF involvement in coalition airstrikes against Isis targets should not be extended from Iraq. There are fears that the prime minister would be weakened on the world stage by a second parliamentary defeat over military action in Syria."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/02/cameron-drops-plans-commons-vote-airstrikes-isis-syria
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It has been belatedly recognised that we were heading into another flustercuck.
 
ST4 said:
This has the hallmark of Isis and they've got the weaponry, intent and motive to do it.

Russia is bombing the life out of them. They must bomb them more by the looks of it.

On a myopic note, you'd be mad to head to any country in the Middle East due to jihadists. This, then the Tunisian shooting. I'd not fly or travel out with Europe.
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Apologies - late to this one.
Looking at the evidence, rather than wild speculation, the tail was found some distance from the plane. There was also no sign of an external explosion or shrapnel as there was with the MH17 downed by a missile. Satellite imagery also showed no sign of a missile
http://www.timesofisrael.com/satellite-imagery-shows-russian-plane-wasnt-downed-by-missile/

What is known is this plane suffered a tail strike some time ago on take off and apparently has been repaired, but has recently suffered some other issues causing it to abort flights and return.

I'd suspect a structural failure, probably causing a rapid decompression and the tail to drop off.

http://sputniknews.com/russia/20151102/1029455702/kogalymavia-tail-part-damaged.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ignal-after-sudden-situation-latest-news.html
 
Byker28i said:
Apologies - late to this one.
Looking at the evidence, rather than wild speculation, the tail was found some distance from the plane. There was also no sign of an external explosion or shrapnel as there was with the MH17 downed by a missile. Satellite imagery also showed no sign of a missile
http://www.timesofisrael.com/satellite-imagery-shows-russian-plane-wasnt-downed-by-missile/

What is known is this plane suffered a tail strike some time ago on take off and apparently has been repaired, but has recently suffered some other issues causing it to abort flights and return.

I'd suspect a structural failure, probably causing a rapid decompression and the tail to drop off.

http://sputniknews.com/russia/20151102/1029455702/kogalymavia-tail-part-damaged.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ignal-after-sudden-situation-latest-news.html
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Don't just turn up in here with logical explanations... ;)
 
crofter said:
I look forward to watching the cockpit video.
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Coor! - That'll be the day. The equipment exists (CVRS) but pilots' unions have fought its installation for years and years. Might be used in the military though?
 
Byker28i said:
What is known is this plane suffered a tail strike some time ago on take off and apparently has been repaired, but has recently suffered some other issues causing it to abort flights and return.

I'd suspect a structural failure, probably causing a rapid decompression and the tail to drop off.

http://sputniknews.com/russia/20151102/1029455702/kogalymavia-tail-part-damaged.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ignal-after-sudden-situation-latest-news.html
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Byker28i said:
Sorry... had to find the story

Previously Japan airlines had the pressure dome in the tail fail
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2001/11/14/severed-tail-caused-catastrophic-jal-crash-in-185.html
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Byker28i said:
Looking at the JacDec it seems the aircraft tail collided with a hanger roof whilst under tow earlier last month
http://www.jacdec.de/2015/10/09/2015-10-08-transasia-airbus-a321-collided-with-hangar-at-taipei/

http://www.jacdec.de/2015/10/31/201...-crashed-after-take-off-from-sharm-el-sheikh/
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Interesting. The similarities are obvious. Well spotted.

An even more compelling comparison is with the China Airlines flight which crashed in 2002. Again the cause was established to be structural failure as a result of inadequate maintenance following a tail strike. Unlike the the JAL plane, which stayed in the air for around 32 minutes after the structural failure, the China Airlines flight broke up rapidly in mid-air, before the fight crew were able to communicate their situation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Airlines_Flight_611
 
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ZoneV said:
It's a funny old world. There are people who mocked the idea of Cameron taking direct action against IS ("Like in Iraq and Afghanistan? That went well..." etc) but when Putin has a go, he's lauded as some kind of hero with a no-nonsense attitude.
:thinking:
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Good job his shirts are starched, as he has no back bone for anything, apart from attacking the disabled and working poor.........He is the bully who goes after the weaker kid...LOL cameron
 
and oops after tonights announcement re-delays and h.m government think it was a explosive device,makes you wonder if they already know something we don't ,i.e read between the lines ,think if it was the isis had better be buying burial plots ,president putin can't afford to lose face
 
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https://www.gov.uk/government/news/sinai-plane-crash-uk-flights-from-sharm-el-sheikh

"While the investigation is still ongoing we cannot say categorically why the Russian jet crashed. But as more information has come to light we have become concerned that the plane may well have been brought down by an explosive device."

That has to be based on information received.

The data and voice recorders are under examination. If evidence of a bomb was found before the examination was completed that would be made known to various countries.
 
Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond announces all UK flights to Sharm El-Sheik suspended with immediate effect.
 
not just us either ireland has stopped them to .i feel sorry for the hard working resort people they are only just recovering from the revolution crap ,and the holidaymakers that are now trapped there .they could always bus them up to eilat or round to cairo i suppose and fly them out that way ,lets see what the next few days brings .
 
Byker28i said:
Sorry... had to find the story

Previously Japan airlines had the pressure dome in the tail fail
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2001/11/14/severed-tail-caused-catastrophic-jal-crash-in-185.html
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Wasn't that the one where a pilot committed suicide because he dragged the tail on takeoff causing the original damage, IIRC it was a poor repair where they only used one row of rivets when there should have been two

I watched one of those air disaster programmes where a pilot snapped the tail off an Airbus by violently manipulating the controls so anything is possible at this stage but the fact the government is stopping flights leaving Egypt suggests they know or at lease suspect terrorist involvement

I read some time ago that after Lockerbie a company developed bomb proof containers for the luggage in the hold but the airlines wouldn't use them because of the weight, today the seat back entertainment systems weigh more than the bomb proof containers
 
I think we more or less know the answer from today's news. I hope Mr Putin will now donate some napalm and cluster to these poor islamists
 
Interesting movements overnight. Planes to/from the uk grounded over fears a bomb may have been planted due to very slack security. An interview on the news this morning with one recent passenger who returned said people were just walking around the security checks if they didnt fancy the queues, locals just strolling around secure areas.
 
boyfalldown said:
when was the last one?
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Sept 11th. Never mind bombing buses and all the usual treats they line up for us. What they are good at though is claiming responsibility for what they do and not claiming responsibility for what they don't.

IIRC I read about burnt bodies which indicates a bomb.

Fear not, putin will repay them with many more bombs. These deaths will be avenged by the worlds finest statesman.
 
gramps said:
Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond announces all UK flights to Sharm El-Sheik suspended with immediate effect.
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You can call me a cynic if you like, but there is something deeply, deeply suspicious about this.

I heard him on R4 this morning and the timing really does look a bit iffy. Politics if a far dirtier business than terrorism.
 
This just goes to show we are right to keep a low profile in the Syria conflict.
I wouldn't be surprised if this is ISIS bombing this plane, its a terrible crime but its their MO.

This could be a very direct attack on the Russians

Very sad days all round.
 
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Mr Bump said:
This just goes to show we are right to keep a low profile in the Syria conflict.
I wouldn't be surprised if this is ISIS bombing this plane, its a terrible crime but its their MO.

This could be a very direct attack on the Russians

Very sad days all round.
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Very sad, although, also, pretty illogical even from ISIS's point of view. Considering Russia was apparently bombing the moderate, anti-assad rebels just as much, if not more, than they were bombing ISIS. Then this move is only going to escalate their efforts against ISIS.

Unfortunately I doubt this will the last time civilians are caught up in this.
 
Byker28i said:
two of them are - inner and outer, but there's a centre fuel tank as well.
Signs are of a complete-ish but burnt fuselage on the ground hence the burning would be from the impact and ignition of the fuel, not necessarily from a bomb as Steve claimed
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Potentially but the bomb is a very plausible explanation for a sudden fall out the sky, that and the indication of a flash in the sky before it suddenly fell.
 
ST4 said:
Safety of British people is paramount....its a wise move.
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Yes. That's what Mr Hammond said. It does seem a bit odd that they didn't mention it to that nice Mr el-Sisi (srsly it's ISIS backwards - why is nobody reporting this??) since he was on his way here at the time for a cup of tea and a hobnob.

I'm not suggesting there's no chance it was a bomb. Just that it seems a strange time to become unilaterally convinced that it was. Like that time they parked tanks at Heathrow.
 
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JonathanRyan said:
Yes. That's what Mr Hammond said. It does seem a bit odd that they didn't mention it to that nice Mr el-Sisi (srsly it's ISIS backwards - why is nobody reporting this??) since he was on his way here at the time for a cup of tea and a hobnob.

I'm not suggesting there's no chance it was a bomb. Just that it seems a strange time to become unilaterally convinced that it was. Like that time they parked tanks at Heathrow.
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Lack of security now mentioned at the airport where the plane flew from. This would make it easy for the Islamic terror organisation to get a bomb on.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/61...-Sheikj-Islamic-State-ISIS-bomb-Russian-plane

The least we can do is repatriate our British countrymen back to Britain safely. Government is doing good here.
 
ST4 said:
Potentially but the bomb is a very plausible explanation for a sudden fall out the sky, that and the indication of a flash in the sky before it suddenly fell.
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So is the tail falling off due to poor repair job, I guess that does not stir up as much fear or sell papers tho....

Wait until the black boxes get found/checked. It will provide evidence for a better indication of what happened, though not always 100% fool proof.
 
eeyore said:
So is the tail falling off due to poor repair job, I guess that does not stir up as much fear or sell papers tho....

Wait until the black boxes get found/checked. It will provide evidence for a better indication of what happened, though not always 100% fool proof.
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far too sensible ;)
 
ST4 said:
Lack of security now mentioned at the airport where the plane flew from.
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Yes. If it was a bomb then it's likely that it was put on at Sharm. And if a bomb were put on at Sharm then clearly their security isn't up to scratch (though we didn't shut down flights from Germany after Lockerbie).

But Hammond was asked this morning what evidence he had that any of this was true and he basically said "erm, it's a secret". Now that may be true. But I'd expect us to share that secret intel with our Nato friends. And who else has stopped flights out of Sharm so far? He also claimed to have suddenly come to the opinion that it was a bomb around teatime yesterday just when el-Sisi was on a plane to the UK. As I say, I'm not saying it wasn't a bomb and that we shouldn't take precautions. But it all looks a bit dodgy.

He was on at about 8:10 - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06myp4g
 
The flash could be from split fuel lines to the APU being ignited by sparks from broken electrical cables (if the tail fell off)

The black boxes are not always 100% fool proof. The voice recorder could record a loud bang, this could be the back end letting go or a bomb.... then maybe some swearing...
 
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