Degree or practical experience?

Samlino

Samlino

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John
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Hi folks

I am interested in learning more about photography and would be grateful for for thoughts as to whether I should go down a higher educational route (if so recommendations re good courses in the Glasgow area would be appreciated) or continue to learn via the school of experience?

Thanks in advance

John
 
Samlino said:
Hi folks

I am interested in learning more about photography and would be grateful for for thoughts as to whether I should go down a higher educational route (if so recommendations re good courses in the Glasgow area would be appreciated) or continue to learn via the school of experience?

Thanks in advance

John
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Hi there

I am new to photography but from other things I have learnt well with a good mixture of theory and practical to get the best skills
 
there are some very good tutorials online for free example mike browne and many other resources.

May I ask if there is a reason for a full blown degree?
 
topcat07 said:
there are some very good tutorials online for free example mike browne and many other resources.

May I ask if there is a reason for a full blown degree?
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Hi

No reason for thinking about doing a full degree. I just wondered if it would cover a very broad spectrum in a structured way and whether this is something an employer would be looking for. Or is it more the case that an employer would be more interested in what a photographer produces?

Many thank

John
 
Both. :)
Go for the higher education route if that's what interests you, but get as much experience as you can around it. Both methods open doors in their own ways so you'll have the best of both worlds and double the chances of progressing.
 
Before digital go the higher education route. After, forget it a waste of time.There is no need to learn darkroom skills and no need to learn composition or exposure. Some one can just learn by trial and error now due to there being no film and development costs and the ability to see the shot on the back of the camera.Also alterations to mistakes can be made using editing software. Just about all the skill has gone. There are 1000's of people out there with cameras now all prepared to do it for nothing as mentioned in many other posts on this form.Save your money being a Tog and earning a reasonable living is on the way out.:nono:
 
im looking into a couple of part time courses, to me itll be what can i get from the course that i cant off video's on youtube
 
You'll never know unless you teach yourself. At the end of the day it is only you that can remember what manual settings are required for a particular scenario, Uni won't help you and it's not worth the expense. You can learn more in a year by trial and error if that makes sense! Just check out the vids and get some books via Amazon then at least you can revert back to them when required :)
 
If you want to be employed as a photographer, get a degree. If you're happy to fend for yourself, get out and make it b
 
What sort of work are you hoping to do? Most degree courses are theory/history based with little emphasis on practical or commercial areas of photography. People who employ photographers have very little interest in your qualifications. It's examples of your work they want to see. If you plan to shoot weddings/sport/events/studio portraits/products/etc, you will spend around 10% of your time shooting, most of the rest finding and dealing with clients. A degree course will do very little to prepare you for this aspect.
 
A lot of people rubbish uni because "you don't need to spend that much time and money to learn how to expose a photo". Of course uni isn't about teaching you the boring technical things (which anyone can teach themselves in a couple of hours). It's about broadening your way of thinking and expanding your knowledge in many related fields.

It really depends what you want out of it, as to whether uni would be the 'right' choice for you or not.

kestral said:
Before digital go the higher education route. After, forget it a waste of time.There is no need to learn darkroom skills and no need to learn composition or exposure. Some one can just learn by trial and error now due to there being no film and development costs and the ability to see the shot on the back of the camera.Also alterations to mistakes can be made using editing software. Just about all the skill has gone. There are 1000's of people out there with cameras now all prepared to do it for nothing as mentioned in many other posts on this form.Save your money being a Tog and earning a reasonable living is on the way out.:nono:
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You don't write for the DailyMash do you?
 
Jayst84 said:
A lot of people rubbish uni because "you don't need to spend that much time and money to learn how to expose a photo". Of course uni isn't about teaching you the boring technical things (which anyone can teach themselves in a couple of hours). It's about broadening your way of thinking and expanding your knowledge in many related fields.

It really depends what you want out of it, as to whether uni would be the 'right' choice for you or not.



You don't write for the DailyMash do you?
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I don't know what the DailyMash is? But I don't write for them anyway :lol:
 
The reality of todays world is that more and more people have degrees and as a result employers have raised their benchmark when looking for prospective employees so if you're looking at photography as a career then the likelyhood is you'll need a good formal qualification.

The reality is also that having a formal qualification doesn't necessarily make you a good photographer so you'll also need to spend plenty of "practical time" putting all that theory you're learning into practice, the 2 combined should give you at least a chance of competing with everyone else with the same aspirations.. it's a tough career world out there now so you have to make that extra effort to stand out from the crowd, a degree these days really only allows you to join the crowd ;)

Simon
 
jon ryan said:
What sort of work are you hoping to do? Most degree courses are theory/history based with little emphasis on practical or commercial areas of photography. People who employ photographers have very little interest in your qualifications. It's examples of your work they want to see. If you plan to shoot weddings/sport/events/studio portraits/products/etc, you will spend around 10% of your time shooting, most of the rest finding and dealing with clients. A degree course will do very little to prepare you for this aspect.
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I Agree with that OK. The local Newspaper Togs went on a course to Sheffield to learn photography and I spoke to one of them who told me the whole course was about dealing with people and setting up shots.Nothing to do with using equipment or processing of the image.It was said that if a Tog was not available to phot an event that on occasion the camera could be given to the office girl to shoot the event with instructions to just take loads of photos from all different angles in auto mode.
I have seen that at events I have been Photographing.
If you go to some of the local newspaper websites then click on the buy photos you will see 20-50 photos of an event all taken from different angles 90% of them rubbish.Then look in the paper for the article and you will see how the best shot was used. No skill what so ever just a scatter gun approach.Why does some need a degree to sweep the floor anyone can do it.If you want evidence ask Prince Charles even he does the Royal photos now and good enough to get the front page of the nationals.Don't waste your time with photography.Go and get a Train Drivers job 35hrs a week £60,000 + then do photography as a hobby.:eek:
 
I have a degree in Geography, 7 years experience freelancing and no qualifications in photography... now it's my full time job and I'm working under my own name covering horse events... experience 100%.
 
There is no doubt at all that a Degree helps a career. It helps the move into the adult world. It also changes peoples expectations and perceptions of you, and your worth.
School exams courses have hopefully taught you how to think and how to regurgitate. Degree courses teach you to think for yourself, learn for yourself, build on what you learn. And give you time to be yourself. It is almost certainly the case that a majority of people end up working in fields they never studied at university. A degree course is a process rather than an end point in itself.

In your situation I would choose a Degree course that covers photography but also has a strong business element. Rather than one that sees Photography only as "Art".

You will never again have such a long period in your life that you can devote to experimentation, self development and discovering photography in all its forms.

It is also the time when you make lifelong friends, and both social and work related contacts. It teaches you that there is an important interface between yourself and the rest of the world and how to make the most of it.

University is a melting pot where people learn to be themselves.
 
As in all walks of life you're going to get varying opinions, but to put things simply, then there are 2 distinct pathways depending upon what type of photographer you're aiming to be.

Certain professions will require a degree - for example medical photography. For these you'll have to go down the college route.

Alternatively, getting a job in most styles of photography, weddings, commercial, press etc will be based on what you can produce, and can you produce the goods within the set timeframe. For that you'll need a high class portfolio of work - having a degree will not make you more a more attractive candidate if the next persons portfolio outshines yours.

By all means, go and get some education, and maybe you can make useful contacts during a degree course, but the degree in itself doesn't mean all that much in most of the photography world.
 
pooley said:
As in all walks of life you're going to get varying opinions, but to put things simply, then there are 2 distinct pathways depending upon what type of photographer you're aiming to be.

Certain professions will require a degree - for example medical photography. For these you'll have to go down the college route.

Alternatively, getting a job in most styles of photography, weddings, commercial, press etc will be based on what you can produce, and can you produce the goods within the set timeframe. For that you'll need a high class portfolio of work - having a degree will not make you more a more attractive candidate if the next persons portfolio outshines yours.

By all means, go and get some education, and maybe you can make useful contacts during a degree course, but the degree in itself doesn't mean all that much in most of the photography world.
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This is perfectly true...
However it is equally true for very many other fields of study. Most employers do not care in the least "What" you studied for your degree. They are only interested in your achievement and how well that demonstrates your "Potential" value. Degrees rarely offer a full technical training in anything, It is not their purpose.

Photographers often find themselves competing in their profession with people who have many other degrees including Business, law, science, geography or foreign languages.

People should only take up professional photography if they simply can't help themselves follow their passion. The rewards are rarely financial or lead to wealth.
 
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kestral said:
I Agree with that OK. The local Newspaper Togs went on a course to Sheffield to learn photography and I spoke to one of them who told me the whole course was about dealing with people and setting up shots.Nothing to do with using equipment or processing of the image.It was said that if a Tog was not available to phot an event that on occasion the camera could be given to the office girl to shoot the event with instructions to just take loads of photos from all different angles in auto mode.
I have seen that at events I have been Photographing.
If you go to some of the local newspaper websites then click on the buy photos you will see 20-50 photos of an event all taken from different angles 90% of them rubbish.Then look in the paper for the article and you will see how the best shot was used. No skill what so ever just a scatter gun approach.Why does some need a degree to sweep the floor anyone can do it.If you want evidence ask Prince Charles even he does the Royal photos now and good enough to get the front page of the nationals.Don't waste your time with photography.Go and get a Train Drivers job 35hrs a week £60,000 + then do photography as a hobby.:eek:
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You really are talking a complete load of guff with almost everything that you mentioned in that post, apart from the unpleasant habit that some papers are developing of sending a blunt to do a photographer's job.

Back to the subject:

You mentioned Higher Education, but everyone is talking about degrees so far. Let's break it down...

An FdA in pure technical photography could be a decent idea, as could an HNC. The former is shorter and more intense.
Great if you are lacking in the technical side, not so hot on the artistic.


Honours Degrees can be useful as well, but you have to pick the right course and make the most of it. Falmouth and Newport are both good for PJ/Documentary stuff, but you'll get out what you put in. A degree in commercial photography is also worth it if you want to be in high end work (commercial/editorial), but again it's what you put into it that will make you successful - rather than what the course delivers on a plate. As with docu stuff, you'll need to pick the course and location very carefully.
For the above, you'll need to be at a reasonable technical and artistic level of photography before you apply.

As for a pure art based photography degree - not so much use in the real world. They're space fillers.
 
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Terrywoodenpic said:
There is no doubt at all that a Degree helps a career. It helps the move into the adult world. It also changes peoples expectations and perceptions of you, and your worth.
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True. A degree -any degree- should equip you with an ability in critical thinking, researching skills, how to structure both an argument and an essay...loads of stuff, all good.

But, if you take a degree within a narrow field, such as photography, you will severely limit your employability when competing for positions that don't require a narrow specialism. So a degree in something like graphic design, which can allow you to lean how to use photography creatively among other skills, will have a wider appeal in the jobs market than just a photography degree.
 
kestral said:
I Agree with that OK. The local Newspaper Togs went on a course to Sheffield to learn photography and I spoke to one of them who told me the whole course was about dealing with people and setting up shots.Nothing to do with using equipment or processing of the image.It was said that if a Tog was not available to phot an event that on occasion the camera could be given to the office girl to shoot the event with instructions to just take loads of photos from all different angles in auto mode.
I have seen that at events I have been Photographing.
If you go to some of the local newspaper websites then click on the buy photos you will see 20-50 photos of an event all taken from different angles 90% of them rubbish.Then look in the paper for the article and you will see how the best shot was used. No skill what so ever just a scatter gun approach.Why does some need a degree to sweep the floor anyone can do it.If you want evidence ask Prince Charles even he does the Royal photos now and good enough to get the front page of the nationals.Don't waste your time with photography.Go and get a Train Drivers job 35hrs a week £60,000 + then do photography as a hobby.:eek:
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You don't know much about press photography do you?
 
jon ryan said:
True. A degree -any degree- should equip you with an ability in critical thinking, researching skills, how to structure both an argument and an essay...loads of stuff, all good.

But, if you take a degree within a narrow field, such as photography, you will severely limit your employability when competing for positions that don't require a narrow specialism. So a degree in something like graphic design, which can allow you to lean how to use photography creatively among other skills, will have a wider appeal in the jobs market than just a photography degree.
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Some degree courses .. like media studies should be far more useful than they are, but almost inevitably they force students to specialise.

I predate Photographic degrees. But the full time Photographic diploma course at the London college of printing and graphic art that I studied, covered everything from Printing, typesetting, plate making, Graphic Design, fine art, life drawing, photography in many forms, even photographic chemistry and optics.
It was a very broad education that stood me well over the following years.
 
Hi all

many thanks for your thoughts, comments, guidance and advice which is really appreciated. Looks like the answer might lie a bit in both the academic and on academic routes described.

Cheers for now

John
 
Qualifications get you a job and experience helps you keep it. As far as photography goes bits of paper are worthless. The amount of people you see at uni and cant hold a camera. Your far better off getting mud on your boots and getting out there. Learn with the camera in your hand
 
barratt1988 said:
As far as photography goes bits of paper are worthless. The amount of people you see at uni and cant hold a camera. Your far better off getting mud on your boots and getting out there. Learn with the camera in your hand
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Works both ways. The amount of people who "taught themselves" and can tell you every technical thing about using a camera you could possibly want to know, but who couldn't take an interesting picture if their life depended on it.. ;)
 
There is an awful lot of good study material on-line these days, Lynda.com, OU, OCA.
Photography is one of those activities where people can see what they are getting so a strong portfolio of work is valuable, perhaps more so than a formal qualification for many potential clients. (perhaps not employers though)
An HE course is a big time and money investment, it might be worth seeing how far you get without first.
 
I think photography is one of the professions where it's what you can do rather than what you know.

It's no good knowing everything theoretical but can't get a good image to save your life, unless you actually need a qualification for the position a good strong portfolio showing what you are capable of would be the better route IMHO.
 
Jayst84 said:
Works both ways. The amount of people who "taught themselves" and can tell you every technical thing about using a camera you could possibly want to know, but who couldn't take an interesting picture if their life depended on it.. ;)
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Your correct but I cant stand people who say im a member of this ive got this bit of paper. I studied for a degree in electrical and electronic engineering... ive never used anything I learnt and ive been in my job as an engineer for 8years.
 
This is very much a repeat of numerous other threads on the same subject.

It can generally summed up as
Those that have a degree or formal study
and those that have not any formal education.
Concluding that their way is best.

Which ever route you take, it requires further on the job training and experience.


Prior to the education act after the WW2 everyone had to pay for their higher or further education themselves. (or win a scholarship)
We have returned to close to that situation and the most recent figures show that students are applying for Higher and further education courses in larger numbers than previously.

Most of todays company bosses were educated under the "Free" system, Just as the previous generation had paid for theirs, either at university, technical college or in the old "paid for" Professional apprenticeship route.

Those that aspired to reach the top, have always invested heavily in their education and training.
 
I'm far from anti-education, but here's a twist on this:
Terrywoodenpic said:
...
Those that aspired to reach the top, have always invested heavily in their education and training.
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Isn't it true that less than 50% of CEO's have a degree, but that almost 100% of company vice presidents have a degree in business studies. So a degree and loads of hard work will get you to 2nd place - talent and hard work will get you into 1st :naughty:.

I don't actually think (from the intelligent) that it's a 'my way is best' at all.

A 'career' working for a company as a photographer starts with a degree, it's impossible to get a foot in the door for most photography 'jobs' without that piece of paper (that's SOCO, Phorensic, Medical imaging, commercial staff photographer type jobs).

However, most working photographers are freelance, those jobs are obtained purely on results. A degree counts for nothing there.

So it's not really a case of two different opinions, it's 2 completely different career paths, so what does the OP want to do when he grows up? would be a pertinent question.
 
In a more general sense, I've always thought that whilst for some types of work a degree is necessary to get you an interview, success is always down to ability and personality.
 
Phil V said:
I'm far from anti-education, but here's a twist on this:


Isn't it true that less than 50% of CEO's have a degree, but that almost 100% of company vice presidents have a degree in business studies. So a degree and loads of hard work will get you to 2nd place - talent and hard work will get you into 1st :naughty:.

I don't actually think (from the intelligent) that it's a 'my way is best' at all.

A 'career' working for a company as a photographer starts with a degree, it's impossible to get a foot in the door for most photography 'jobs' without that piece of paper (that's SOCO, Phorensic, Medical imaging, commercial staff photographer type jobs).

However, most working photographers are freelance, those jobs are obtained purely on results. A degree counts for nothing there.

So it's not really a case of two different opinions, it's 2 completely different career paths, so what does the OP want to do when he grows up? would be a pertinent question.
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This was certainly true after the war when far less than 5% of students read for a degree . A few more went to university but never took a degree. Those that did mostly studied the arts. We are still seeing this reflected in top Jobs, but it is changing as the old guard die off.

My Grandfather never had a degree, however he studied in the early days of Faraday house, on the first sandwich type course, to gain a diploma, and took a job as assistant engineer to a cable company owner as his apprentice. (All a costly process.) He ended up as a past president of the IEE and a fellow of both the American and British IEE and deputy Chairman of BICC and director of research. (as well as president of the British Ice hockey association.) And a CBE for inventing the anti magnetic mine floating cable.
He was one of the very top Electrical engineers of his generation.

He never had a degree but was highly educated and successful in his field. This route would not be open to anyone today.
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
This was certainly true after the war when far less than 5% of students read for a degree . A few more went to university but never took a degree. Those that did mostly studied the arts. We are still seeing this reflected in top Jobs, but it is changing as the old guard die off.

My Grandfather never had a degree, however he studied in the early days of Faraday house, on the first sandwich type course, to gain a diploma, and took a job as assistant engineer to a cable company owner as his apprentice. (All a costly process.) He ended up as a past president of the IEE and a fellow of both the American and British IEE and deputy Chairman of BICC and director of research. (as well as president of the British Ice hockey association.) And a CBE for inventing the anti magnetic mine floating cable.
He was one of the very top Electrical engineers of his generation.

He never had a degree but was highly educated and successful in his field. This route would not be open to anyone today.
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That's certainly true, and that was my point.

Nowadays though, lots of people with that much talent branch out alone, and that route is still wide open to anyone, whilst the top people haven't bothered with a formal education and have made it right to the top off their own backs, the masses who work for them (even close to the top) need a good degree to get through the door.
 
If nothing else, a photography degree will force you to try areas of photography that you maybe wouldn't try otherwise. I intend to do one some day purely for that reason (I already have a career that I love but don't have any kind of degree).
 
My job description is Senior Electronic Design Engineer. I don't have a degree.


Steve.
 
Steve Smith said:
My job description is Senior Electronic Design Engineer. I don't have a degree.


Steve.
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While fields are relatively new, that is not so unusual. However there are often glass ceilings for management jobs.

The chairman and managing director in a technical company might have only business or financial qualifications.
 
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