Death Penalty in Bali

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big soft moose said:
so does the ammount matter - would it be justified for 50kg, 500kg, etc

also I don't see us as being 'protected from it' - personally I'd be happy to see it returned for terrorism, premediatated murder, and drug trafficking in the UK - its arguably more humane than locking someone in a cell for 23 hours every day anyway.
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No I don't think the amount matters. I wasn't arbitrarily using 5kg as a figure, I understood it was 5kg. I'm not sure one person could easily smuggle 50kg nevermind 500kgs in a suitcase. As you asked, would it matter if it was 5 grams, still happy for someone to be slaughtered for some apparent bogey-man narcotic?

You don't see us (resident in the UK) as protected from the death penalty? I never made the statement as such, but was paraphrasing Spike and yet resolutely stand by it, as its not an opinion but mere fact. What makes you believe or fear otherwise?

As I said in my first point on this thread, I am an 'eye for an eye' guy. It should be returned for murder yet there has been too many shysters involved in previous 'life' trials I often find myself uneasy holding that opinion.
 
Daryl said:
Then dealers should be terminated with out trial. Save money and time.
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Without a trial, who decides that someone is a dealer? You?

What if the person that makes that decision has a grudge against another and "terminates" them, stating they are a dealer? What if that person ignores crucial evidence, or the police fabricate it?

Can you not see why due process is a non-negotiable in the judicial system of any society that calls itself civilised. The barons recognised that 800 years ago when they made King John sign the Magna Carta, one of the three clauses that has not been repealled is the one that grants the HUMAN RIGHT to due process (which is now enshrined in article 6 of the ECHR - the ECHR has its basis in English common law, it's not Europe imposing stuff on us, most of it is us imposing stuff from our legal system on the largely civil law based systems across much of Europe. Obviously that's not quite as good for ranting about though).
 
PatrickO said:
This thread is going to be one of those pro vs anti death penalty debates where nobody's mind changes.

FWIW my vote is no to the death penalty. I won't go into all the arguments for/against. But I can't think of any circumstances in which it is good to kill an unarmed civilian in cold blood.
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Except she was armed with something that could potentially cost lives.
The death penalty like any law isn't just a punishment, it's also a deterrant. You know what the consequences can be. The choice is yours if you still commit the crime.
From what I read, the reason they gave her the death penalty is because she showed no remorse for what she had done, had she done so she would have got the few years that the prosecution were pushing for.
 
The reasons I am against the death penalty are

(a) I'm not happy about a state that sanctions executions.

I understand the idea of the state being the ultimate authority over anyone living within the area it controls, but I'm not sure that authority should extend to the power of life or death.

I think the state/society should uphold the rights of the victims of crime and for some crimes the penalty should be removal of the perpetrator from society for life, but I do not think that should include killing the criminal. I think a problem is that 'life' does not mean 'life'. If it did perhaps things would be different.

(b) There is also the possibility of a miscarriage of justice. I have to admit there are very few established instances of a miscarriage resulting in execution, but as democratic states act on behalf of their citizens, then any such instances mean we are all culpable.

Having said this, I can understand people who have different views, especially if someone has been the victim of, or is related to a victim, of a violent crime.

Dave
 
So glad you picked out one piece. That line was out of order but I feel angry with all the 'Yes they did wrong but slap their wrists and tell they are very naughty' stuff that is coming out.

Because when something happens to a loved one or someone close lets just see if they still think let them get sent down for 10 years.

Of course they shoulds have a trail.
So that a damn fine Barrister gets them off so they can do it again.

Police curruption? You watch too much telly. Police fabricating the evidence...... Very very rare.

What is the point of locking them up for life? Paying to keep them there. The cell can be used for lesser offences.
 
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James J said:
My thoughts exactly. Who are we to criticise the penalty when she knew exactly what she was doing in the first place. It wasn't like it was a small amount of drugs either, as 5kg isn't exactly personal use.
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Did she? Was she mentally capable of making that judgement? The woman isn't even bright enough to show remorse when that would reduce her sentence! Sounds like she's basically an idiot and even the US draw the line at executing idiots with an IQ below 70 odd.
 
srichards said:
Did she? Was she mentally capable of making that judgement? The woman isn't even bright enough to show remorse when that would reduce her sentence! Sounds like she's basically an idiot and even the US draw the line at executing idiots with an IQ below 70 odd.
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She wasn't in the USA so their law has no bearing on the case. The only thing that matters is she did the crime the punishment is their law to enforce as they see fit. Personal feelings of the rights and wrongs of the death penalty is irrelevant.

If a visitor came to this country and bought that amount of drugs in then she would be punished under our law. Just because we are a soft nation and would have prob let her go again is irrelevant.

You abide by the laws in the country you visit.
 
I'm opposed to the death penalty for several reasons, but we've debated this on the forums before. Just as a matter of interest, will all the people who are in favour of executing this woman feel exactly the same way about it if it was their own grandmother, mother, wife, sister or daughter in this situation? I hope so. Hypocrisy is a sad thing.
 
So out of interest, those saying she's getting what she deserves if it is true that her family was being threatened would that change your mind at all? If you were being forced into this would you expect to be executed if caught?

IF its true of course..
 
Kind of on the same line (no pun) as my last..


I imagine a lot of drug mules are coerced into the act, be it threatening family or maybe in exchange for protecting/relocating loved ones.

Does that make it right to execute the mule? I mean the drug lords don't care, they'll just drag another person in. Meanwhile the drug lord sits in their nice big house by the pool..
 
Personally, and I know that there'll be huge disagreement in this, but I wish they'd reinstate the death penalty over here.

If I caught a burglar in my house and he had any kind of weapon I'd do anything I could to end his life, at the end of the day he shouldn't be there and if he wasn't then it wouldn't happen.

I believe murderers, rapists, peados are nothing but scum and serve no purpose whatsoever so why keep them alive.

But I will add that I think 100% evidence and proof beyond any shred of doubt needs to be in place.

Barbaric, yes, but then isn't much of the crime barbaric in the first place.

As for Bali, i've been there and there's enough signage in place warning of the risks you take, still take them at your own peril!

At any time she could have walked up to an official and said help, my family are in danger.

Have her family been targeted since she was caught, I'm guessing no.

If she didn't do it she wouldn't be in this situation, just like any criminal!
 
I don't believe it is true - the ' evil men were threatening my wife/family/freinds" excuse is a very very well worn path as an excuse for drug smugglers , and outside of holywood it is very rarely true

with the exception of trafficked people, forced to smuggle to pay the traffickers fee, mules are very rarely coerced , most of them are doing it for the money.

hypothetically if it was true , it could be seen as mitigation - although the culprit would still warrant a jail sentence, not some fluffy bunny rehabilitation and a group hug.
 
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big soft moose said:
hypothetically if it was true , it could be seen as mitigation - although the culprit would still warrant a jail sentence, not some fluffy bunny rehabilitation and a group hug.
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Granted jail time would still be in order.

I'm just like looking at all of the facts rather than throwing a blanket opinion over it like some :D
 
MartynK said:
I'm opposed to the death penalty for several reasons, but we've debated this on the forums before. Just as a matter of interest, will all the people who are in favour of executing this woman feel exactly the same way about it if it was their own grandmother, mother, wife, sister or daughter in this situation? I hope so. Hypocrisy is a sad thing.
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well my grandmother, mother, wife and (hypothetical daughter) would have a sense of right and wrong so wouldnt be trafficking narcotics , so could only be wrongly convicted which would be a different fish of kettles (theres not much doubt that this woman did what she is acccused of - she doesnt even deny it)

that aside if a family member did choose to smuggle drugs into a country with the death penalty for the act I would be sad for them, but over all my feelings on the crime deserving punishment wouldnt be altered.
 
Mark Anthony said:
But I will add that I think 100% evidence and proof beyond any shred of doubt needs to be in place.
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I agree 100% about Bali and iit being her own foolishness (to put it mildly)

but just out of interest, whats 100% evidence. Don't you need that anyway?

A confession?Google Thomas Quick. Then wonder how you can find a man guilty for 8 (I think murders) without 1 single piece of evidence to corroborate his confessions for any of them?.

DNA?. Mistakes happen. In the UK in the last couple of years. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...A-evidence-tray-was-re-used-by-forensics.html
 
AndyB1976 said:
No I don't think the amount matters. I wasn't arbitrarily using 5kg as a figure, I understood it was 5kg. I'm not sure one person could easily smuggle 50kg nevermind 500kgs in a suitcase. As you asked, would it matter if it was 5 grams, still happy for someone to be slaughtered for some apparent bogey-man narcotic?
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Well 5 grams could be a personal use ammount rather than smuggling so that would mitigate to possession rather than intent to supply - but other than that no the ammount smuggled is irrelevant

AndyB1976 said:
You don't see us (resident in the UK) as protected from the death penalty? I never made the statement as such, but was paraphrasing Spike and yet resolutely stand by it, as its not an opinion but mere fact. What makes you believe or fear otherwise?
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you misunderstand - what I meant was that i don't see its absence as protection - we would be better protected if muderers, terrorists, paedophiles, violent rapists, and narcotic traffickers faced a firing squad , rather than being let out after some group therapy to do it again.
 
Daryl said:
why is that Dave? why waste tax payers money keeping a murdering scrote alive?

What about the right of the victim?

They are abused, maimed or killed?
It not only affects them also their family, extended family. friends. work colleages the people who found the victim.

Selfish loosers that sell drugs, molest kids and rape women and murderers should be put down. End of.

the reason the government wont do any kind of referendum is because the British people will vote to bring back hanging. Vote to not be in europe.

The British public are fed up with being walked over by politicians and banner waving Rainbow knitted cardigan cuppa soup drinking middle class treehuggers!!!
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Here here!
 
boyfalldown said:
I agree 100% about Bali and iit being her own foolishness (to put it mildly)

but just out of interest, whats 100% evidence. Don't you need that anyway?

A confession?Google Thomas Quick. Then wonder how you can find a man guilty for 8 (I think murders) without 1 single piece of evidence to corroborate his confessions for any of them?.

DNA?. Mistakes happen. In the UK in the last couple of years. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...A-evidence-tray-was-re-used-by-forensics.html
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Charged but not tried re the link so although the process was originally cocked up the outcome proved that DNA works.
 
tiler65 said:
Charged but not tried re the link so although the process was originally cocked up the outcome proved that DNA works.
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Tell him that after 6 months on remand....;)

Not suggesting thats the same as the death penalty, but it does show mistakes can and do happen.
 
For the - we do not kill in any circumstances in order to protect our moral superiority - believers , a hypothetical

A maniac with a knife runs at you screaming that he's going to kill you , you have a hand gun and are trained in its use - do you shoot him, or let him kill you ? ( I imagine some will say that they'd reason with him, get him to put down the knife then go off to knit tofu together, but for the purposes of this lets assume that isnt an option )

Now imagine its your child he is attacking , do you kill him or let your child die ?

what about if he's attacking a stranger , or a strangers child ?

my view is that i'd answer kill him to all three of the above, as I believe its perfectly possible to have a strong moral code which includes the taking of life, in defence of yourself, your family, your society, your country etc.
 
big soft moose said:
For the - we do not kill in any circumstances in order to protect our moral superiority - believers , a hypothetical

A maniac with a knife runs at you screaming that he's going to kill you , you have a hand gun and are trained in its use - do you shoot him, or let him kill you ? ( I imagine some will say that they'd reason with him, get him to put down the knife then go off to knit tofu together, but for the purposes of this lets assume that isnt an option )

Now imagine its your child he is attacking , do you kill him or let your child die ?

what about if he's attacking a stranger , or a strangers child ?

my view is that i'd answer kill him to all three of the above, as I believe its perfectly possible to have a strong moral code which includes the taking of life, in defence of yourself, your family, your society, your country etc.
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Being anti death penalty does not mean you are against killing in defence of your family etc.....

I assume you see the difference
 
big soft moose said:
For the - we do not kill in any circumstances in order to protect our moral superiority - believers , a hypothetical

A maniac with a knife runs at you screaming that he's going to kill you , you have a hand gun and are trained in its use - do you shoot him, or let him kill you ? ( I imagine some will say that they'd reason with him, get him to put down the knife then go off to knit tofu together, but for the purposes of this lets assume that isnt an option )

Now imagine its your child he is attacking , do you kill him or let your child die ?

what about if he's attacking a stranger , or a strangers child ?

my view is that i'd answer kill him to all three of the above, as I believe its perfectly possible to have a strong moral code which includes the taking of life, in defence of yourself, your family, your society, your country etc.
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Absolutely, wouldn't even consider reasoning!
 
big soft moose said:
For the - we do not kill in any circumstances in order to protect our moral superiority - believers , a hypothetical

A maniac with a knife runs at you screaming that he's going to kill you , you have a hand gun and are trained in its use - do you shoot him, or let him kill you ? ( I imagine some will say that they'd reason with him, get him to put down the knife then go off to knit tofu together, but for the purposes of this lets assume that isnt an option )

Now imagine its your child he is attacking , do you kill him or let your child die ?

what about if he's attacking a stranger , or a strangers child ?

my view is that i'd answer kill him to all three of the above, as I believe its perfectly possible to have a strong moral code which includes the taking of life, in defence of yourself, your family, your society, your country etc.
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The Bali case is about judicial execution, not self defence. The two are unrelated.

The rest of the post is irrelevant.
 
We kill all sorts of vermin that intrude into our lives, why should the human species be treated differently? humans are responsible for all the problems on the planet we are after all the most selfish, violent, arrogant animals that live on it.
 
Maybe everyone should agree to disagree as this debate is going nowhere......
 
"Coerced by gangsters" into smuggling the narcotics. Has one shred of evidence been presented that this was indeed the case? It's a nice try at a one-size-fits-all get out clause. Nice try, but as we have seen, epic fail.

And for those who have put forth that this is a thread about the death penalty in general, it is not. It is a thread about one woman, one case, one guilty verdict as a result of hard evidence and one sentence of death by firing squad.
 
Rapscallion said:
Drug use has exploded since it was criminalised.

Maybe there's no link at all between drug use and legal status. :thinking:
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Evidence of 'explosion'?
Evidence of relationship to criminalisation?
 
Rapscallion said:
Gramps, you are kidding me on this one, right?
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Perhaps not well worded - what I am suggesting is that there is no link between criminalisation and drug use and indeed that legalisation might actually cause an increase.
I would also suggest that until criminalisation, (with its associated crime figures, rehab centres, support groups etc), any idea of the misuse of drugs would have been guesswork rather than data.
 
gramps said:
Perhaps not well worded - what I am suggesting is that there is no link between criminalisation and drug use and indeed that legalisation might actually cause an increase.
I would also suggest that until criminalisation, (with its associated crime figures, rehab centres, support groups etc), any idea of the misuse of drugs would have been guesswork rather than data.
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On that i agree.
 
Saw this on the news yesterday.........

The "facts" as I seem them are that she was forced to due this as her family was under threat.

She helped the authorities arrest 3 or more other people involved.

Base on the above, IMO that doesn't warrant the death penalty.

I would say even 15 years in one of the country's hellhole prisons is a little harsh but I suppose if you make concessions everyone will start using "I was under duress" as a defence.
 
I am totally against the death penalty, but I cannot see how our politicians can get involved in this case because two very powerful countries who are our allies (US and Saudi Arabia), both use the death penalty on a regular basis and we say nothing, no criticism - nada.
We will never know the real "facts" behind this case, except that she went to Bali via Thailand (where the drugs were allegedly stitched into her suitcase lining - by someone else?) and was caught.
It is commonplace for people to make up stories, but at the end of the day, it is up to every individual to make choices in life, and this includes who you mix with, where you go and what you do.
If you mix with bad people and make the wrong choices, then it is only a matter of time before you have to pay the price.
My missus and I do not mix with certain relations who do not care about the law, and they have tried to blackmail us into doing things which are illegal (not drugs though). The result is that we have cut ourselves off from them, and that would apply to anyone who tried to involve us in anything.
 
andy700 said:
at the end of the day, it is up to every individual to make choices in life, and this includes who you mix with, where you go and what you do.
If you mix with bad people and make the wrong choices, then it is only a matter of time before you have to pay the price.
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Exactly!
 
Harsh, yes but dem's da rules! I see she (or one of the do-good brigade) are now begging for money to pay for her appeal... I doubt she'll get to the wall anyway.

The govt. here may be vehemently opposed to the death penalty but were rather quiet when Hussein swung and Bin Laden was executed.
 
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