Darkroom Planning Permission Achieved!

Woodsy

Woodsy

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So, first thing is first. Nikki is a wonderful wonderful wonderful person! :D I have been given planning permission to turn the bathroom into a darkroom/bathroom. *cue giggling like a schoolgirl*

A little context. I have not used a darkroom in over 12 years. I'm sure it'll come back to me eventually, but for now I have a few questions for you wonderful people. The plan is to put a fixed, but non permanent board over the bath in the bathroom (we have a separate ensuite with shower etc, so no functionality (that we use, anyway) will be lost) and place the enlarger over the bath tub. The window is tiny, so it wont take much to light seal, and the gaps round the door are already small and hence wont take much to seal either. Plan is to run an extension lead into the bathroom each time to power the enlarger and safelight. Given that the bath itself and the floor below it *should* be able to hold approximately a ton, given the bath volume, plus a person, it'll hold a heavy enlarger with no problems.

So! Questions inbound.

  1. I wont have a huge amount of room next to the enlarger on the platform for trays, but I'd dearly love to print at 20x16 - so as to maintain 5x4 format. Has anyone any advice regarding potentially stacking the trays (dev on top) so as to use less surface area?
  2. The chemicals stink iirc. So does anyone have any advice on A) if there are any chemicals that smell less? I see to recall the fixer absolutely stinking; B) storing them in a way to not leak the bad smell to the rest of the house over time, and C) Do people clean their trays to avoid the smell, and if so, how and with what?
  3. I would be very grateful if people could recommend a good place to get things like proper blackout blinds, light sealing etc, and general darkroom supplies like trays, safelights etc.
  4. I remember the final wash after fix using running water. Is this a requirement if the volume of prints being made is small?
  5. Lastly, I'm always keen for general advice and tips from people who've made darkrooms before - what would you have done differently?
This is going to probably take place over the next 2-3 months, so I'm in no mega rush to purchase things, unless they are a total steal. I appreciate I'm also probably going to have to save for a 5x4 enlarger, so that'll take time as it is.

Many thanks in advance for any advice/answers people may have :D
 
If you'd be content with 12x16, I'd recommend the Nova Monochrome processor. Small footprint, temperature controlled, able to leave it set up with chemicals (even the developer) so you can make a print with zero setup time and floating lids to keep the smells (and oxidation/evaporation) down.

The main smell (to my nose) comes from the stop bath, but then I don't like the smell of vinegar. You can get odourless stop baths which is citric acid, but lemons go mouldy and pickled onions don't, and the same is true of odourless stop baths (my experience).

The simple place to get "proper" blackout blinds etc is somewhere like ImagingWarehouse; I use two layers of thick black polythene bought from a garden centre where the intention is to lay it down to block the sun to prevent weeds. But my darkroom doesn't have a window, only a door. From memory, Firstcall sells similar items.

I used to use the six changes of water, five minutes in each for single weight and nine changes for double weight papers. I now have a print washer, so just have to connect hose to tap. You might find this worth looking into if you can site it in the bath.

My darkroom is 7'x5' with kitchen units along two walls and no water. Given the space, there wasn't room to have a sink.
 
Awesome news dude, having tried a darkroom without easy access to running water I can tell you the bathroom will be a huge boon!

From my experience the chemicals didn't smell too bad, although if you're looking at 20x16 then the surface area of the trays will be much greater, and so maybe it'll be different to my experience. I always stored in the expandable concertina type bottles or in cleaned bottles the chemicals come in once you've used a complete bottle (re-using the bottles seems to be the best bet, you might be able to buy them empty maybe?).
 
Missed the cleaning! I just used to rinse and wipe the dishes; you can buy a dishcleaner (from Nova I think) that works well with stubborn grime. But I've rarely had to use anything like that.

Do take a look at Firstcall, as they sell many hard to find items, and their catalogue is well worth having.
 
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I put a Patterson tray type print washer in the empty bath with the hose attached to the cold tap. Let it run for 5 mins or more. The water runs out the outlet with the drain tube removed straight into the bath and away. If you need a larger size, make one from a large developing tray and a short hose with tap fitting like those shower hoses you can buy cheaply.

You can put the fixer tray in the bottom of the bath too if you can get to it easy enough.
 
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Great to hear you have been given official permission. Just make sure it's in writing and you get all the required stamps etc.

It sounds like you have a very similar situation to me. I bought two heavy duty scaffolding planks from a recycling center (they are about 3" thick) to stand the enlarger on over the bath. I cleaned and painted them so they didn't leave grubby marks everywhere.

This left about three feet of space to the side for trays and other wet side stuff. I took the top off an old table and just about manage to fit it next to the enlarger. It's big enough to hold three 10x8 trays, but I found that I ended up with a sore back leaning over the one to the far left, as the sink is in the way. Hence I decided to move to a Nova tank and it's been a great decision. Makes everything much easier and I save lots of time not having to mix fresh chemicals each time and wash trays at the end of a session. I can't say I noticed any strong smells from the trays, but I'm sure the Nova tank cuts down on the vapours. I've been using Fotospeed dev, stop and fix.

I bought the thick blackout vinyl from Firstcall to cover the window. It's okay, but you do need two layers and it doesn't stick to the glass as advertised. I use low tack masking tape around all the edges. It's also quite expensive, so I'd try something cheap and cheerful first. I bought a length of heavy duty blackout curtain from Dunelm to cover the door. It's about a foot wider than the door and about six inches longer top and bottom. I use Duck tape to stick it to the bathroom tiles. It stays up for two or three weeks without coming unstuck. When it starts to pull away, I just give it a quick press and it's fine again for a fortnight.

I have a tray washer for RC paper. I sit it on the back of the toilet and it drains into the sink. Now I'm using the Nova tank I have room for a print drying rack behind the tank. I give fibre paper a quick wash in the tray then transfer it downstairs to a large tray full of water. This gets changes three or four times then left overnight. I haven't carried out an archival fix test yet, so I may need to change this process. I'm still practicing with mostly RC paper, so not too worried about that yet.
 
20x16 is normous, the space the trays take up is epic, I have a d/room, with plenty of worktop but even I see I'd a need a strategical method of printing 20x16, nevermind a temp bathroom d/room.

as Stephen say's, a slot processor and slot washer would be the thing to get but they are expensive, you can soup 20x16 in 16x12 trays by dipping through the solution see saw fashion, but its not ideal.

on the positive side, I'd give my right arm to have a bath in the D/room....lol

I got blackout blinds from Ikea, they're so cheap you can just cut off the roller and use the material on its own.

20x16 and 5x4 enlarger.........s'all big stuff, it looked like a big ask to fit it and be able to use it comfortably in my d/room, so I stuck with 16x12

tray wash isn't too bad on RC paper but if you print on Fibre you'll need a clearing agent and a proper method of economy cos that stuff takes some washing
 
as an additional comment, I'm happy with 16x12, I could do 20x16 if I put my mind to it but I don't shoot 5x4, so if you're gonna see the benefits of 5x4, 20x16 is the way to go if at all possible..:)
 
Woodsy said:
I have not used a bathroom in over 12 years.
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Ewwww.






Sorry, that's how I read it initially, then I put my glasses on properly. I know nothing but I wish you well and look forward to seeing the results. :exit:
 
I'd be tempted to get a syphon device and put it in the bath then just run a bit of hose into the bath and let the syphon do its business, recover all your prints at the end of the session
Firstcall don't seem to do them any more, but you might get one off the bay - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Photax-Print-Washer-/151783141576?hash=item2356faf0c8

20*16 is big, you might have trouble finding room for the trays, they used to make metal stacking frames, back in the day, otherwise its back to the bay or DIY.
 
Hi there
Sorry to hijack a little bit.
I was thinking of building a bit of a lightroom in the cellar but there's no running water down there. Is it still feasible without running water?
 
Yes. Not a problem if running water is not too far away. I had a tray for carrying fixed prints to the bathroom for washing. As long as the door gap doesn't need packing each time to stop light coming in.
 
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allicio said:
I was thinking of building a bit of a lightroom in the cellar but there's no running water down there. Is it still feasible without running water?
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You will need a couple of buckets to get rid of the waste, plus think about ventilation.
As mentioned, washing is the only bit that really needs running water and that can be done in the light,
 
Many thanks everyone for the advice and info!

I would like to stick to 20x16, as while i appreciate it takes some room, I also recon there is a way to shoe horn it all in there. Its a shame they dont make the vertical developers in that size though. That being said the 16x12 one is pretty pricey!

I like the idea of the trays integrated with the water pipes, thats rather win and cetanly something to look into.

Thanks also for the advice on the blackout ideas. I need to consult with management about what approach to take that is both functional and doesnt look gash, as it still needs to function as the room intended (less the bath itself).

I dont intend on printing of fiber any time soon. Am i correct in thinking that i need just the 4 trays? If so, im pretty sure I can generate the required real estate to fit the dev and stop in a stack with dev on top, then fix next to that, and wash in the bath tub itself. Id also like to make it fit in such a way that a shower curtan can hide everything when not in use. I sense a sketchup model coming....

Thanks again for all your advice everyone, really appreciate it, and keep it coming!
 
Yep, 3 trays for processing RC and whatever you can cobble together for the wash.

What about chems and storage, dispensing an all that crap, cos we're in to litres now, no milliliters in a test tube..lol
I think I use 2l in a 16x12 tray, so I dunno.....is it really double that in a 20x16..
Drying ??, washing lines and clips drip tray.....safe light......beard

stuff..........lots of stuff
 
Just being nosy - what's the enlarger?
 
It's the fixer and stop bath that smells.But if you buy Tetenal fixer and stop bath they are oderless,if they still make it!
 
fotospeed fx30 from silverprint is oderless fixer

I dunno what the smell thing is all about really, I can hardly smell b/w chems
paint a skirting board and door with oil based gloss......now that's a stink
 
I always rather liked the smell of D163 :)
 
Beard is not a problem :D

Print drying is actually a concern, but realistically, that's a concern regardless of the print size and something I need to put some proper thought into. I intend on using some of the unused space in the bath itself to store some stuff, and chems can find a place elsewhere, though the possibility of building a small set of cupboards near the sink is up there.

Enlarger is open to advice atm. Was initially thinking of a de vere 504, but if anyone knows of other 5x4 enlargers, I'm all ears!
 
When I lived with my parents I used to have boards over the bath, one for enlarger and the other for chemicals and fill the bath with water and just drop the prints in...at the end of the evening it was quite amusing to see a bath full of prints. Then I just used loads of newspapers to put the prints on..over the floor, tables and settee..well I don't know how my parents put up with it esp wanting to go to the toilet at the wrong moment..
 
Woodsy said:
£670?!?!!!!!!!!!1111!!one
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Exactly. Great for a tight space though.
Trouble is, if I bought one at that price and the misses found out, there's a good chance it would end up being forced into a tight space. :arghh:
 
Or for about half that here. I bought my 5x4 enlarger from Secondhand Darkroom Supplies.

In my experience, the downsides of the processor are few compared to the advantages (always ready, no clear up needed, much less space needed). The downsides are you can't use the "neat developer on sponge" method to give extra development to certain areas - if you ever want to.
 
Thanks for the link @StephenM, that's a tad more like it. Surely though, you could still do that neat developer trick if you had an intermediate tray/surface before the stop bath?
 
No reason why you couldn't; but from memory some of the Nova processors let you see the print as it develops because the front is clear perspex, and others are opaque.

If it's not adding too much temptation, you do get the teperature controlled waterbath, so no need for dish warming trays in winter...
 
I'm struggling to see why the Nova costs so much when, presumably, you could make something similar with some perspex, waterproof sealant and an aquarium heater. Am I underthinking this? Or should I get myself down to B&Q and Pets At Home?
 
Just add the floating lids and the taps at the base to empty and you're home and dry (if the sealant holds :D) - as far as I can see.
 
StephenM said:
from memory some of the Nova processors let you see the print as it develops because the front is clear perspex
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I use the basic 8x10 'Monochrome' version (no waterbath) and you can see the print develop through the clear perspex side. Obviously, it's not as good as an open tray, but I can tell if I've made a serious exposure error. My safelight is on the other side and doesn't light the print face directly, but it's better than nothing.

I've used the Nova for a couple of months now and I'd be quite unhappy if I had to go back to open trays for the standard 8x10 stuff.
 
StephenM said:
Just add the floating lids and the taps at the base to empty and you're home and dry (if the sealant holds :D) - as far as I can see.
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And don't forget to use perspex with a textured surface so the paper doesn't stick...and get someone to guarantee they'll make you a new one if it breaks within 12 months... ;)
 
FujiLove said:
And don't forget to use perspex with a textured surface so the paper doesn't stick...and get someone to guarantee they'll make you a new one if it breaks within 12 months... ;)
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First part, good point and not something I'd considered in the couple of minutes thinking I gave it earlier :)

Second part, if you make it yourself, it should be fairly straightforward to provide a 12-month warranty. Or 24 months. Or longer, assuming you're prepared to make another. I'll add this to my list of things to do where it can sit with my homemade Jobo idea ;)

stevelmx5 said:
I've just come across this 8"x10" Nova for £100 or best offer if someone lives in Ireland and can collect :0)
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And from the related items ... Nova 16x20
 
Might be a stupid question but I take it there's nothing stopping someone using a Nova tank to develop sheet film instead of paper is there apart from the amount of chemicals needed to 'reach' the smaller sheet film?
 
No.

Edit. By which I meant, there's nothing to stop you. I have it in the back of my mind to use it if/when I move up to large(r) format.
 
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Ok, so I know how important the temperature of the dev solution is for developing film. Is it as important for paper? I get the whole consistency thing, but how sensitive is the paper development to temperature?
 
Probably less so. The same principles still apply - the longer the development, the higher the contrast (you can gain a possibly useful increase in contrast by extending the development time so long as you don't get veiling), and of course, some developing agents simply don't work at too low a temperture (say 54 degs F).

And the old dodge of getting extra dev elopment by using hot water/hot developer locally on a print depends on a temperature dependence of the process.
 
I've kept out of this so far as I have absolutely no knowledge, but I wondered...

- is this b&w printing (only or in the first instance)? And quite a different question

- how likely is it that a visitor will appear and require the whole thing to be demounted to make the bathroom available for its primary purpose? That might affect some of the plans discussed.
 
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