Dark line bottom of the shot?

The goblin

The goblin

<span class="poty">POTY Winner 2015</span></br>
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Marsha
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Hi, I've just bought (secondhand) a full studio set up! I now have more kit than I know what to do with!!!

There are two sets of lights, one of them is the Bowens 400 Gemini kit. So I am limiting myself to just this set until I've learnt how to use it. I have started with just one light and the a soft box. I have tried both the 120cm Octobox and the 60x60 soft box on different subjects.
I have noticed in some shots there is a darker strip across the bottom of them. I asked the guy I bought them from and he said this

"The dark line will be because your exceeding the sync speed. Stay under 200 and you'll be more than fine. A typical shoot I would set up to record a 160th or 125th @ f9 ISO 100. "
My problem is I am shooting under 200 but still getting it! Not all the time though, more so when I want a low key shot!

Any tips/ hints/ links greatly appreciated. I am loving the quality from just the one light and looking forward to expanding. But I want to actually understand what I'm doing and not use guess work!

I've just read the Lencarta thing on the magic of distance, very informative.
 
Hi

The line at the bottom is due to the max flash sync speed of your camera.

What camera do you have, may be the sync speed is below 200?
 
If you're getting the band at well below max sync (stick with 1/125 for experimenting), then it's possibly a sync issue, what triggers are you using?
 
Hi, I'm using my 5D iii with cheapy Yongnuo 602 tx and receivers. The 602's came with all the gear (I am happy to buy better if needed).

Am I right in thinking the max sync speed is 1/250th? Certainly the one shot I took at 1/250th the dark line was bigger!
 
Check the batteries in the triggers and i'm pretty sure being a top of the line camera it will support hss so look at a set on Yongnuo 622c's with a 622tx unit to control it. Then you can run at what ever sync speed you want. :LOL:

Make sure you check what the sync speed is set to in camera though as it may be set at 1/100 or similar which will throw everything out hence seeing the curtain in the shot.
 
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The goblin said:
I will go through the settings this aft and check but I think it is set to the max.
Click to expand...

Change the batteries in the triggers and test them using 1/160. which is plenty high enough for studio work (1/125 will do)
 
The goblin said:
Hi, I'm using my 5D iii with cheapy Yongnuo 602 tx and receivers. The 602's came with all the gear (I am happy to buy better if needed).

Am I right in thinking the max sync speed is 1/250th? Certainly the one shot I took at 1/250th the dark line was bigger!
Click to expand...

Max x-sync speed of 5D3 is 1/200sec, though for a 100% clean frame with a slow studio head it's a good idea to knock that back to 1/160sec max. Canon actually suggests 1/60sec or 1/30sec with studio flash (handbook p191 ;) ) which is ridiculously long, even for the most sluggish studio flash. But it makes the point about studio flash that can take a bit longer to ramp up to full brightness, especially at lower power settings. Speedlites are faster.

So that's one thing to bear in mind, but your problem with dark banding is the YN 602 triggers. They're good, cheap and reliable, but quite old tech now and not the fastest. There's a slight delay while they process the trigger signal, so use 1/125sec. Newer triggers like the YN 603-II run faster but in a studio situation with no significant ambient light, there is zero benefit.
 
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Thanks for that.

I do have two 622c's, but not the transmitter unit. Is it worth getting that or stumping up for a much better set of triggers like pocket wizard? I'm always of the attitude buy cheap buy twice, so don't want to waste money if I don't need to!

Oh the guy who sold me the kit said he tried newer triggers but preferred the 602's.
 
The Pocketwizards have a couple of tiny advantages, but with the massive disadvantage of reliability issues (worse with Canon than Nikon, worse in certain indoor situations).

I sold mine, and bought 622s, if that info is worth anything to you.
 
The goblin said:
Thanks for that.

I do have two 622c's, but not the transmitter unit. Is it worth getting that or stumping up for a much better set of triggers like pocket wizard? I'm always of the attitude buy cheap buy twice, so don't want to waste money if I don't need to!

Oh the guy who sold me the kit said he tried newer triggers but preferred the 602's.
Click to expand...

I have a few triggers, but often find myself picking up the YN 602. The transmitter is so small and simple. For your purpose, there is absolutely no benefit to using any other trigger.

YN 622 is amazingly good, and arguably beats Pocket Wizards that are looking a bit clunky and clumsy these days. Certainly thrashes them on price, though to be fair, PW does have a few features that might be handy shooting outdoors action, but kinda specialist. 622-Tx transmitter unit is certainly worth getting, just a lot easier/nicer to use instead of fiddling around in the camera menus.

Edit: crossed post with Phil. His point about PW's reliability/RF interference issues is valid.
 
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Not sure if photobucket shows the exif data, this was 1/250 at f2.8 ISO 200.

Apart from the last few they were all 1/200 or slower.



This is not one of my 'keepers' by the way! I only kept it as an example!

I have other shots where the line at the bottom is a more solid black line, but I can't show that as it's practically identical to my POTY entry! But I can tell you that it was 1/200 at f7.1, ISO 100.
 
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If you are using studio heads, there is no point in buying the 622 CTX as you still won't be able to change the light settings. You will still have to change it manually on the head. The transmitter I believe is mainly designed for speedlights.

For now, attach one 622 to one of the heads and the other to your camera, if you are using more than one light, then trigger the other using the built in optical trigger.
 
ChrisHeathcote said:
If you are using studio heads, there is no point in buying the 622 CTX as you still won't be able to change the light settings. You will still have to change it manually on the head. The transmitter I believe is mainly designed for speedlights.

For now, attach one 622 to one of the heads and the other to your camera, if you are using more than one light, then trigger the other using the built in optical trigger.
Click to expand...

Thank you I will try them as soon as I locate the cable to connect it! I am happy to change the settings manually on the light as I'm not exactly that far away from it!

My next question is what batteries do you recommend in your triggers? I am using good old standard rechargeable ones, although I do know the battery in the 602TX is a brand new CR2.
 
Ok maybe not then. :LOL:

When I have had the black line issue it is literally a black line at the bottom of the pic.

So is it an issue with the lighting then rather than the triggers?
 
minnnt said:
Hmmm, strange. Looks like a shadow from the light modifier to me. The shutter curtain would be a darker line than that.
Click to expand...
Possibly. I've never used a soft box before so it's one steep learning curve. I do have ones with the darker/ almost solid line at the bottom, but this is different!
 
I would expect a shadow to show up when using the modelling light (if the rig has such things.)
 
minnnt said:
Hmmm, strange. Looks like a shadow from the light modifier to me. The shutter curtain would be a darker line than that.
Click to expand...

It's shadow from the shutter, caused by tiny delay in the trigger. Reduce shutter speed and it will disappear.

If you shoot in a darkened studio with negligible ambient light, the shadow appears as a black band. But if shooting in brighter ambient light, there will some ambient light showing through. In the posted pic, exposure settings show the flash must be at low power and not much brighter than the ambient. That could be the modelling light; also note the colour shift to yellow. In the images Marsha says have a darker band, exposure settings given suggest the flash is around four stops brighter - huge difference, and way brighter than ambient.
 
One of my rejects (photo, not the model!), taken with a Canon 5D2 at 1/200 using a generic single pin remote at the local studio, the remainder of the session was taken at 1/125 which removed the black banding entirely.
View attachment 29921
 
Thanks Hoppy, you da man.

When I've had the issue it looks like Harveys pic above hence me thinking it was something different. I just use a ttl cable now or use one speedlight to transmit data to another off camera. No such issues for me now and I can shoot at what ever speed I want.
 
HoppyUK said:
It's shadow from the shutter, caused by tiny delay in the trigger. Reduce shutter speed and it will disappear.

If you shoot in a darkened studio with negligible ambient light, the shadow appears as a black band. But if shooting in brighter ambient light, there will some ambient light showing through. In the posted pic, exposure settings show the flash must be at low power and not much brighter than the ambient. That could be the modelling light; also note the colour shift to yellow. In the images Marsha says have a darker band, exposure settings given suggest the flash is around four stops brighter - huge difference, and way brighter than ambient.
Click to expand...

Spot on! My front room is very dark, they don't like sunshine getting in here as it's too darn hot in the summer! The baby shot was in the morning with some sunlight getting in, the flash was at low power as I am still learning the best levels to use it at, the modelling lamp was off. This shot is the JPEG SOOC, so the colours look wrong! The other shot was taken in the evening in the same room, but I wanted a brighter shot so was experimenting with increasing the power of the light. The black line in that shot is exactly lie the one shown above.

I have gone through all the baby shots and the band appeared as soon as I switched shutter from 1/160 to 1/200! So lesson learnt there. Thanks guys.

I didn't know if it was the position or angle of the soft box, but moving it and changing height didn't change anything.

I was going to try it tonight but I've got the lurgy and can't be arsed right now, I may try tomorrow morning when the room is brighter again!
 
Hello Marsha, I have been using Bowens esprit 500w studio lights for over ten years now & use a Wein SSR Transmitter.
This is a wireless infra-red device that sits in the hot shoe of your camera, they work best inside but if the device has direct line of site to the flash sensor atop of your Bowens gemini 400's will work up to a point outside as well.
The sensor I mention is the small red plastic rectangle along the top of the flash head.
The Wein SSR transmitter is the size of 2-3 match boxes, I have an older version which is 2 match boxes in size but the newer ones are about 3 boxes big, extremely light, no cable to worry about & no faffing about with radio frequencies.
Secondly some radio triggers have been know to react to mobile phone signals & set the flash off via the radio receiver.

Don't need a receiver with the Wein because your Bowens already has it built in.
One draw back is that unlike a radio trigger / receiver which can be set to fire individual flash heads with out turning the one you don't won't firing off you would need to turn the flash off with a Wein as its signal is received by all of the flash heads regardless.
However, I'm sure as you have already mentioned you realise how easy enough it is to just step over to a flash & flick the flash off, you can still leave the modelling bulb on of course.
The Wein is much faster at recycling than any flash so you never have to worry & the batteries 2 AAs last for several thousand shots.
Here's one I've found on eBay.
Remember you won't need the receiver as it's built into the Bowens already.
Also you won't see may of these around so won't have to switch signals like with a radio trigger when close to others with similar triggers.
However, if you're after going outside quite a lot eventually I would say the radio route would be the one to stick to.
But for in doors you won't beat the Wein especially for being very small, weighs much less than a radio trigger & recycles far quicker & for many many more shots on the same set of batteries.

One other bit of kit if you haven't already got one is a light meter, don't listen to others telling you you can use the cameras histogram, yes you can but seriously what a lot of faffing about.
Use the cameras histogram to check for the graph pitching to the right & adjust accordingly, but how many times are you going to do that? Each time you change the settings?
And change the camera to what? And by how much?
With a light meter & the Wein now in your hand as they have a little clear/white button on the rear to manually trigger the flash, you check the settings once & precisely.
For the asking price I would certainly get one I really can't explain how extremely easy they are to use, just put it on the camera, turn it on & that's it, press the cameras shutter, done.

Of course you can always buy a pc sync cord, 5 meters should do, that's a direct connection between camera & flash but of course you now have a trailing cable, but for under a tenner?
I still have a pc sync cable just in case!

Oh I use a Canon 1d MK IV now with this Wein, use to be a MK II & your 5D MK III has a pc sync connection as well.
And the photo of the baby is a shadow from your position from what I can tell.
I have only ever seen solid black lines however slight when the shutter curtain is to blame, there is full detail in the shadowed areas of the photo & you wouldn't of had that with an out of sync curtain.
Even the slightest piece of shutter curtain will show as a solid black line, it's effectively reduced your sensor in size & simply won't record any detail in that area.
At best if you look at the out of sync shot HarveyM posted at the very edge of the curtain is some blur but no more than a tenth of the black line whereas yours has no solid black line & is one third of the image.
HarveyM's image was shot in portrait mode which is why the image has the line to the right & not to the bottom.
Also he is holding the camera with its base facing to his right, if the black line had been to the left the cameras base would've faced the same way.

Here's a very short old fashioned long but single page with some useful info on using flash.
 
Thanks Simon for the detailed reply, I shall certainly look at those transmitters.

In reply to a few of your points. I have had a play with my lights and experimented with different shutter speeds, starting (accidentally) at 1/640, as expected the image was completely dark! Below 1/200 the line had gone completely so it's great having a true understanding of how to prevent this in the future. There was one or two images that had more of a shadow than the dark line with detail still in there, so the previous post about it being a shadow sounds a possible cause. Although I am clumsy I did make every effort to not stand in front of the light. And the shot of the baby above I was actully lying on the floor with the soft box up above me.

I had another play yesterday as there is a PC sync cable in the kit so I wanted to test it. It works just the same but is handy to have in case my triggers ever fail me. I certainly didn't see much difference in the line from the shutter at higher shutter speeds. Maybe as I gain more experience I will notice the finer details in it all!

As for a light meter. The guy who sold me the kit strongly recommended one as well. The harsh sunlight here is a bit of a metering nightmare, so I have managed to get one through the classifieds and it should be here hopefully in a week!

I shall check out that link as well.

I continue on the steep learning curve and have watched numerous tutorials and read loads on various settings. Already in the week I've been using them I have seen a vast change in my photography! I am total convert to studio lights. Now I'm off to practice with the beauty dish and the rectangular softbox, thankfully no flesh was sacrificed constructing it today!
 
Note that radio triggers are subject to radio interference. To combat this they use a coded signal. The transmitter sends out a repeated burst of these. The receiver fires as soon as it detects its special code. Sometimes the code signal is missed due to interference, in which case the receiver hopefully recognises the second, or the third, and so on. This delays the flash and increases the delay the shutter sync speed has to cope with. Hence the variation in the size of the dark band. That tells you that your triggers are suffering from interference.

Possible sources of interference are nearby computers, light dimmers, an old electric motor whose suppressor has died (e.g. old fridge). Make sure your receivers aren't being shielded from the transmitter by being in the electrical shadow of metal like the pole of a light stand. In the end you must simply slow down the shutter until you hardly ever get the black band. As soon as you start using triggers sync speeds become general rules with local exceptions rather than unbreakable laws.
 
retrosi said:
Hello Marsha, I have been using Bowens esprit 500w studio lights for over ten years now & use a Wein SSR Transmitter.
This is a wireless infra-red device that sits in the hot shoe of your camera, they work best inside but if the device has direct line of site to the flash sensor atop of your Bowens gemini 400's will work up to a point outside as well.
The sensor I mention is the small red plastic rectangle along the top of the flash head.
The Wein SSR transmitter is the size of 2-3 match boxes, I have an older version which is 2 match boxes in size but the newer ones are about 3 boxes big, extremely light, no cable to worry about & no faffing about with radio frequencies.
Secondly some radio triggers have been know to react to mobile phone signals & set the flash off via the radio receiver.

Don't need a receiver with the Wein because your Bowens already has it built in.
One draw back is that unlike a radio trigger / receiver which can be set to fire individual flash heads with out turning the one you don't won't firing off you would need to turn the flash off with a Wein as its signal is received by all of the flash heads regardless.
However, I'm sure as you have already mentioned you realise how easy enough it is to just step over to a flash & flick the flash off, you can still leave the modelling bulb on of course.
The Wein is much faster at recycling than any flash so you never have to worry & the batteries 2 AAs last for several thousand shots.
Here's one I've found on eBay.
Remember you won't need the receiver as it's built into the Bowens already.
Also you won't see may of these around so won't have to switch signals like with a radio trigger when close to others with similar triggers.
However, if you're after going outside quite a lot eventually I would say the radio route would be the one to stick to.
But for in doors you won't beat the Wein especially for being very small, weighs much less than a radio trigger & recycles far quicker & for many many more shots on the same set of batteries.
Click to expand...

Those light-pulse triggers are old tech now. Radio triggers are more reliable overall, especially in situations of bright ambient light, more versatile and cheap as chips.

One other bit of kit if you haven't already got one is a light meter, don't listen to others telling you you can use the cameras histogram, yes you can but seriously what a lot of faffing about.
Use the cameras histogram to check for the graph pitching to the right & adjust accordingly, but how many times are you going to do that? Each time you change the settings?
And change the camera to what? And by how much?
With a light meter & the Wein now in your hand as they have a little clear/white button on the rear to manually trigger the flash, you check the settings once & precisely.
For the asking price I would certainly get one I really can't explain how extremely easy they are to use, just put it on the camera, turn it on & that's it, press the cameras shutter, done.

Of course you can always buy a pc sync cord, 5 meters should do, that's a direct connection between camera & flash but of course you now have a trailing cable, but for under a tenner?
I still have a pc sync cable just in case!
Click to expand...

A flash meter is very handy in the studio for setting up multiple lights, adjusting ratios etc, but unnecessary with only one light. Either way, the best way of setting final exposure is to reference the histogram and especially blinkies.

Oh I use a Canon 1d MK IV now with this Wein, use to be a MK II & your 5D MK III has a pc sync connection as well.
And the photo of the baby is a shadow from your position from what I can tell.
I have only ever seen solid black lines however slight when the shutter curtain is to blame, there is full detail in the shadowed areas of the photo & you wouldn't of had that with an out of sync curtain.
Even the slightest piece of shutter curtain will show as a solid black line, it's effectively reduced your sensor in size & simply won't record any detail in that area.
At best if you look at the out of sync shot HarveyM posted at the very edge of the curtain is some blur but no more than a tenth of the black line whereas yours has no solid black line & is one third of the image.
HarveyM's image was shot in portrait mode which is why the image has the line to the right & not to the bottom.
Also he is holding the camera with its base facing to his right, if the black line had been to the left the cameras base would've faced the same way.

Here's a very short old fashioned long but single page with some useful info on using flash.
Click to expand...

No. See post #29 and consider the relative exposure settings.
 
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chris malcolm said:
Note that radio triggers are subject to radio interference. To combat this they use a coded signal. The transmitter sends out a repeated burst of these. The receiver fires as soon as it detects its special code. Sometimes the code signal is missed due to interference, in which case the receiver hopefully recognises the second, or the third, and so on. This delays the flash and increases the delay the shutter sync speed has to cope with. Hence the variation in the size of the dark band. That tells you that your triggers are suffering from interference.
Click to expand...

Transmitters only send the firing signal once. Any delay is in the signal processing, though most current triggers are very fast now with effectively zero delay.

Possible sources of interference are nearby computers, light dimmers, an old electric motor whose suppressor has died (e.g. old fridge). Make sure your receivers aren't being shielded from the transmitter by being in the electrical shadow of metal like the pole of a light stand. In the end you must simply slow down the shutter until you hardly ever get the black band. As soon as you start using triggers sync speeds become general rules with local exceptions rather than unbreakable laws.
Click to expand...

True in theory, though examples of that actually happening are very rare now that (almost) all manufacturers use the 2.4GHz frequency. Pocket Wizard is one brand that still uses the older 433MHz that is more prone to problems.
 
retrosi said:
I stand by what I posted Hoppy
Click to expand...

Feel free on the first two points, but you're mistaken on the third. See post #29 and the OP's reply :)
 
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