D90 upgrade.

callaird

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Ali
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I have had my D90 for 4 years now and still love it but have £1,500 to £2k to buy a new body.

I mainly shoot children, out doors. The odd horse race and golf tournaments.

I have been looking at the D600, 800 and 800E but am so confused about the comments I have read on here.

Please could someone give me some advice on what would be the best body to buy for me. I could probably scrape together another £200 if need be.

Oh, also my laptop is really old, I shoot in RAW and transfer all RAW files I may need to keep, to external hard drives and delete from my laptop but my laptop is still pretty slow!

TIA
 
Hi there,

Do you really need a full-frame DSLR?
What lenses do you have?
Remember you'll have to invest in FX lenses to make full use of the FF sensor.

My first choice would be to buy the best FF lenses first and then get a body :)

Riz :)
 
rjbell said:
Why on earth do people recommend this?

Well if you only have a collection of DX lenses and want to upgrade to a FF body, you won't really get the benefit of a FF body with DX lenses.
So investing in some decent FF lens would be have to be factored into the budget.

Riz :)
 
Well if you only have a collection of DX lenses and want to upgrade to a FF body, you won't really get the benefit of a FF body with DX lenses.
So investing in some decent FF lens would be have to be factored into the budget.

Riz :)

Buying fx lenses for a dx is just not a great option. I read so many times people say there buying fx lenses just in case the go Fx one day, but until that day you are lumbered with a less than ideal lens.
 
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rjbell said:
Buying FF lenses for a dx is just not a great option. I read some many times people say there buying FF lenses just in case the go FF one day, but until that day you are lumbered with a less than ideal lens.

I agree but the OP is looking at FF bodies, so the existing DX lenses won't be that great.
I guess OP could get a D600 bundle with a kit lens?

Riz :)
 
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Given the d600 price at the moment the d800 seems better value to me, given the current issues i keep reading about the d600 dust and oil problems too. I'm sure by the summer the d600 will be closer to £1000.
 
Ok, thanks for commenting. Are the FX lenses the new thing? Or can I get an upgrade body that will work with my DX lenses?

It looks like I haven't looked in to this thoroughly enough.

More to think about.
 
You will need to replace all your dx lenses with fx.
 
even DX lenses on D800/D800E will be a lot better than on D90 as it can be used in 15MP mode (For DX lenses). D600 in DX mode will use 12MP i think so still be same as D90.
 
FF not FX!

Both are correct when talking Nikon ;)

I jumped from a D90 to the D800E. Wow, is all i can say. Some difference. It was long over due for me, I wanted to go full frame years ago, I would have skipped DX altogether in the beginning if I'd had the money at the time.
 
Why on earth do people recommend this?

So you don't have to buy lenses twice if you upgrade to FF.. which most will at some point. If you have a shed load of DX lenses you'll have to replace them all at the same time you upgrade, and that's a very expensive upgrade all at the same time.



Buying fx lenses for a dx is just not a great option. I read so many times people say there buying fx lenses just in case the go Fx one day, but until that day you are lumbered with a less than ideal lens.


How is it less than ideal? FX lenses are designed to be sharper over a wider image circle, and as you are only using a small proportion of that image circle with DX, the edge performance using a FX lens on a DX camera can be the same as the centre performance. The ONLY downside is the cost. You get what you pay for however. Talking of cost though, having to sell all your DX lenses at a loss, and then upgrading to FX will actually be more expensive in the long run.

Anyway... I reckon DX is on borrowed time. You'll start to see ever cheaper and cheaper FF cameras from now on I reckon.

I'd get the D600, and save a few quid to your lens fund. The D800 is nice, but only really advantageous for stuff that allows you to work very carefully like, Landscape and studio work. If you shoot kids, horse races and golf.. stuff where you have work fast and often have to compromise or take a little less care, the D600 is a little easier to handle and the lower resolution masks the small errors in focus etc a little better. That's not to say the D600 is low res.. at 24MP it's good enough for anything really.

The D800E makes absolutely no sense for you.
 
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So you don't have to buy lenses twice if you upgrade to FF.. which most will at some point. If you have a shed load of DX lenses you'll have to replace them all at the same time you upgrade, and that's a very expensive upgrade all at the same time.



How is it less than ideal? FX lenses are designed to be sharper over a wider image circle, and as you are only using a small proportion of that image circle with DX, the edge performance using a FX lens on a DX camera can be the same as the centre performance. The ONLY downside is the cost. You get what you pay for however. Talking of cost though, having to sell all your DX lenses at a loss, and then upgrading to FX will actually be more expensive in the long run.

Anyway... I reckon DX is on borrowed time. You'll start to see ever cheaper and cheaper FF cameras from now on I reckon.

I'd get the D600, and save a few quid to your lens fund. The D800 is nice, but only really advantageous for stuff that allows you to work very carefully like, Landscape and studio work. If you shoot kids, horse races and golf.. stuff where you have work fast and often have to compromise or take a little less care, the D600 is a little easier to handle and the lower resolution masks the small errors in focus etc a little better. That's not to say the D600 is low res.. at 24MP it's good enough for anything really.

The D800E makes absolutely no sense for you.

I know all the arguments for buying fx but you are still left with lenses like the 24-70 thats not wide enough.
 
The 14-24 is.
 
That would get very tedious having to switch lenses just to shoot something remotely wide. Fine if you are out shooting landscapes but....
 
No-one else seems to have picked up on your comment, but if your laptop is struggling now, you may also have to budget for a new computer to cope with processing the larger file sizes.
 
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Ok, thanks for commenting. Are the FX lenses the new thing? Or can I get an upgrade body that will work with my DX lenses?

It looks like I haven't looked in to this thoroughly enough.

More to think about.

What lenses do you currently have?
 
I'm also in the same situation, looking at the D600 at the moment, I've got the 80-200 AF-S F2.8, and my 18-105 DX Kit Lens, so moving to Full-Frame is not really any hassle as I'll sell the D90 and my Kit Lens complete and look to get either the 24-85 F2.8-4 or 24-120 F4 to replace it.

The only advice I can give, is that if you have ever held a D300 you may be disappointed by the size or build of the D600. I've used the D300 and found the AF really good and general feel of it FAR superior, holding the D600 felt like a toy :shake:

Good luck with your upgrade, whichever you choose, I'll be watching this thread closely! :thumbs:
 
You can put the d800 into dx mode so I'm assuming you can do the same with the d600. OP hasn't said what lenses he already owns, some may be fine on ff anyway. A dx mode d800 or 600 is still going to be better than a d90 and will give you time to save up for new lenses.
 
D600 does support DX Crop Mode, the resolution is 10Mp IIRC, but aside from the increased tonal range of the sensor and low-light sensitivity, will the D600 still be better than a D90 if running in DX Crop Mode?

Probably a silly question but if looking at investing 1-2k in a new camera body it is something that the OP probably would want to know, and myself of course.
 
You can put the d800 into dx mode so I'm assuming you can do the same with the d600. OP hasn't said what lenses he already owns, some may be fine on ff anyway. A dx mode d800 or 600 is still going to be better than a d90 and will give you time to save up for new lenses.

15MB in DX on D800
12MB in DX on D600 (so same as D90)
 
Same size-wise is all. It's a completely different sensor, and it will still have much better ISO performance, for example.
 
If it was simply about number of pixels then i wouldnt bother going ff at all.

my point was to show what part (size) of sensor you will be using in DX mode.

of course it will be better than D90 in every way. Just a sensor quality (EXPEED 3rd generation on D600/D800 to compare to EXPEED 1st generation on D90 is huge difference). not talking about body / AF..... well anything really
 
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Question 1, callaird what do you think you are missing with your current body?
Question 2, what lenses do you currently own?
Question 3, as mentioned, have you budgeted for a decent computer and hard-disk storage, because file size has significantly increase since the D90?
Question 4, would you consider used equipment if the outcome of your decision post this thread was to buy a newer body. Perhaps a used D700?

As for a recommendation have a read of this thread regarding the merits of each D600 v D700 v D800

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=460938
 
Both are correct when talking Nikon ;)

I jumped from a D90 to the D800E. Wow, is all i can say. Some difference. It was long over due for me, I wanted to go full frame years ago, I would have skipped DX altogether in the beginning if I'd had the money at the time.

Can I ask how the D800 is so much of an improvement Cagey? (interested, not being antagonistic!)
 
the argument of using DX lens on Full frame body seems to be a bit of a joke??

why buy a full frame body and cripple it with a lens that can't go for the full frame and still produce the same image quality?!

the OP shoots children outdoor (not sure what this means) and tournaments and races. This suggests 24-70 would suffice and what is wrong with a 12-24? or 17-35? they are all very useful lens cover very good focal range in Full frame. 12-24 might be a bit wide if the OP doesn't do landscape. but certain 17-35 would be ideal in Full frame situation as well as in DX mode.

Definitely build up your FX lens and then change the body. The upgrade in lens will also result in sharper images as someone mentioned before, the lens will have much better edge sharpness than DX lens. If not for the fact D800 can step down the sensor i.e. crop the image, would anyone recommend DX lens on FX body...NO you wouldn't cos there will be a ridiculous black ring!

the same approach still applies. This gimmick of cropping the image for DX lens, i just don't buy it!

EDIT: I didn't quite appreciate the D800 is 36 mpixels...that's quite impressive. For those people who thinks more pixels is better, you are wrong. more pixel only means you can make larger prints without suffering image quality degradation when printed. My D90 can print A2 sized prints just fine without any issues. @ A1 you can see the pixels - that's standing an inch away from the print and looking at it with a sharp eye
 
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I'm not sure it intented for using dx lenses so much as giving you more reach with your fx lenses. I would be interested in the crop mode not for using dx lenses but to convert a 16-35 to a 24-50 when needed. I've looked everywhere for a picture of the view you are getting through the viewfinder when in crop mode. Am i right in thinking it does not grey out the edges but lights up the crop area?
 
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ricky1980 said:
the argument of using DX lens on Full frame body seems to be a bit of a joke??

why buy a full frame body and cripple it with a lens that can't go for the full frame and still produce the same image quality?!

the OP shoots children outdoor (not sure what this means) and tournaments and races. This suggests 24-70 would suffice and what is wrong with a 12-24? or 17-35? they are all very useful lens cover very good focal range in Full frame. 12-24 might be a bit wide if the OP doesn't do landscape. but certain 17-35 would be ideal in Full frame situation as well as in DX mode.

Definitely build up your FX lens and then change the body. The upgrade in lens will also result in sharper images as someone mentioned before, the lens will have much better edge sharpness than DX lens. If not for the fact D800 can step down the sensor i.e. crop the image, would anyone recommend DX lens on FX body...NO you wouldn't cos there will be a ridiculous black ring!

the same approach still applies. This gimmick of cropping the image for DX lens, i just don't buy it!

EDIT: I didn't quite appreciate the D800 is 36 mpixels...that's quite impressive. For those people who thinks more pixels is better, you are wrong. more pixel only means you can make larger prints without suffering image quality degradation when printed. My D90 can print A2 sized prints just fine without any issues. @ A1 you can see the pixels - that's standing an inch away from the print and looking at it with a sharp eye

I'm going to correct some points here.

"Children outdoors, tournaments and races" indicates a telephoto lens. Certainly the 24mm end of a 24-70 isn't going to get much use.

The 12-24 is a DX lens NOT full frame. 12mm would be insanely wide on FF. "Very good focal range on FX?" Not so much.

I would like to see evidence of why FX lenses are better than DX lenses on DX. They will be, in general, larger and heavier than their DX equivalents, and often the wrong focal lengths (24-70 being a good example - not wide enough on DX). Are you saying you've really tested the FX 35mm f2 and the DX 35mm f1.8 and concluded that the f2 is sharper? I'd love to see the results, seriously. It would make me switch to the f2 in a heartbeat if true. Is suspect, however, that the DX lens is better for DX, being as it is faster, insanely sharp and AF-S.

The thing to do is have the right lenses for the camera you have. Some lenses work well on both systems - the 70-300 zooms spring to mind here - but FX 2.8 zooms are overkill on DX - the suggestion of using the 14-24 on DX is risible. However, one is forced to use FX primes on DX in most situations (20mm, 24mm, 28mm, 85mm) so that's where I would be investing lens-wise if I had an eye on upgrading to FX.

Don't sweat the DX crop, I can't imagine many people using it.

"For those people who thinks [sic] more pixels is better, you are wrong." [facepalm] You contradict this statement with your next sentence, helpfully removing the need for me to correct it. I agree pixels aren't the only consideration, I too have made giant prints from a D90's 12MP, and often it's the *quality* of the pixels that matter, rather than quantity, but still, all other things being equal, more is better.

In summary, to the OP, if you want to make the switch to FX, just do it, but I would go D700 and have some money left over for lenses and a computer upgrade rather than be stuck with massive 36MP D800 files and lack the computing power to edit them on.
 
how does the sensor magically give you more reach? doesn't make any sense to me.

the camera simply crops the area out and gives the "effect" of a longer lens i.e. zoomed in. it can do this cos it has high resolution. but then again you can do it without the cropping gimmick of this DX step down.

not seen how the D800 functions with this crop but i really think it's just a gimmick. Why would anyone in the right mind use DX lens on a FX body or even want to reduce a FX image.

anyway there might be a situation where the FX lens is so crap in terms of edge sharpness, barrel effect and vignetting, you really want to crop the image. but then why would you pay ££££ for a body and buy a crapy lens?!
 
I'm going to correct some points here.

"Children outdoors, tournaments and races" indicates a telephoto lens. Certainly the 24mm end of a 24-70 isn't going to get much use.

The 12-24 is a DX lens NOT full frame. 12mm would be insanely wide on FF. "Very good focal range on FX?" Not so much.

I would like to see evidence of why FX lenses are better than DX lenses on DX. They will be, in general, larger and heavier than their DX equivalents, and often the wrong focal lengths (24-70 being a good example - not wide enough on DX). Are you saying you've really tested the FX 35mm f2 and the DX 35mm f1.8 and concluded that the f2 is sharper? I'd love to see the results, seriously. It would make me switch to the f2 in a heartbeat if true. Is suspect, however, that the DX lens is better for DX, being as it is faster, insanely sharp and AF-S.

The thing to do is have the right lenses for the camera you have. Some lenses work well on both systems - the 70-300 zooms spring to mind here - but FX 2.8 zooms are overkill on DX - the suggestion of using the 14-24 on DX is risible. However, one is forced to use FX primes on DX in most situations (20mm, 24mm, 28mm, 85mm) so that's where I would be investing lens-wise if I had an eye on upgrading to FX.

Don't sweat the DX crop, I can't imagine many people using it.

"For those people who thinks [sic] more pixels is better, you are wrong." [facepalm] You contradict this statement with your next sentence, helpfully removing the need for me to correct it. I agree pixels aren't the only consideration, I too have made giant prints from a D90's 12MP, and often it's the *quality* of the pixels that matter, rather than quantity, but still, all other things being equal, more is better.

In summary, to the OP, if you want to make the switch to FX, just do it, but I would go D700 and have some money left over for lenses and a computer upgrade rather than be stuck with massive 36MP D800 files and lack the computing power to edit them on.

as i was saying about the 12-24 it is wide...but you are right it is a DX lens. but the 17-35 is awesome. coupled with 24-70mm, it will cover almost all the focal range the OP wants and maybe a tele prime for those long shots.

I didn't contradict myself in terms of the pixels. More pixel DOES NOT give sharper images or better renditions. it only means you can enlarge to a much bigger scale. if all things equal 12MP and 36MP will give the same A2 print but A1 the 36MP will not show pixelation where the 12MP will likely to shown some signs of pixelation.

Then again how often will the OP print giant pictures of horses and children?
 
Can I ask how the D800 is so much of an improvement Cagey? (interested, not being antagonistic!)


Well, first off, the incredibly detailed images it pulls off, the D90 was a cracker, but comparing shots side by side for detail and there's no contest. I love sharpness and clarity and contrast, the D800 does all this much better. It's also much better at dealing with higher ISO levels. That was one of the main reasons I wanted to go FX. I like to shoot rock gigs in dark pubs and clubs, the D90 often struggled under crap lighting. I hated pushing it over 1600, whereas I've shot up to 10k and got very usable results from the D800. The FX lenses help of course, the glass is just so good.
 
To be honest, the subject has gone off to a massive tangent here.

The op wanted to know what to upgrade to from D90 which is fair enough given if the op has an arsenal of FX lens.

So based on the above then the D800 would be a good choice wouldn't it. D600 seems pointless as an upgrade much like what D7000 was when compared wity D90. But the upgrade is going from dx to fx. A lot of variables need to be considered not a straight forward like for like.
 
Are you not the same guy who had like a reunion with some other guy you know in another thread? Tangent you say? Really ... MY last post was very relevant. He's thinking D90 to maybe D600/800 ... re-read my post there, it is about the differences between ... on topic.
 
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Phil Young said:
"Crappy lens"!?!?!?

....what lens would you call crappy?? All DX lenses??

DX lenses aren't crisply at all, in fact most Nikkor lenses have great optics.
Nikon at the moment only manufacturer 3 DX professional lenses though :(

Riz :)
 
Are you not the same guy who had like a reunion with some other guy you know in another thread? Tangent you say?.

Stop being so touchy!

I was trying to say comparison between DX and FX body isn't straight forward and without some inputs from the OP, the debate with go on and on.
 
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