D850 or Z-series?

LongLensPhotography said:
Genuine question. Does it know that ISO100 f/9 1/160 is a completely 'wrong' setting for preview because it only works with flash burst on? I needs to be at ridiculous ISO to maintain f/9 if so, or what does it do? Stays black like my LCD I presume.
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You have an option, use exposure preview in dim light when using natural light (shows ISO amplification that will be used for the exposure), or disable exposure preview so it uses auto brightness (signal amplification) to increase the brightness of the viewfinder. IDT DSLR's live view use auto brightness in quite the same way.

LongLensPhotography said:
1MP and tiny are a very bad combination.
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Actually, smaller suits lower resolution better. I.e. when you view 1MP at 8" in size it is much more likely to show pixelation and lack of detail than when you view it at 2" in size (relative)... actually, that's how DoF works; relative size vs actual detail/resolution.
If you are looking at EVF or live view zoomed in it does become incredibly jittery/dynamic; but IDT most of that is due to refresh rate... it's due to the (closer to) 1:1 pixel output view (like trying to handhold for super macro). Too low of a refresh rate makes it jittery, not blurry (behind the actual position, like jumping between freeze frames, which is worse).

I'm not a huge EVF fan, but like just about everything else, they have their pluses and minuses.
 
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The D850 is a fabulous camera. Do your stuff right and it will reward you with stunning images, do it wrong and it will punish you. I had both the D850, D500 plus my D5 and Z6 but mostly shot action stuff. I love the EVF, think it’s a brilliant feature and I wanted Nikon make a mirrorless version of the best bits of the D850 and the D5, with its blistering speed and in my Z9 it’s delivered that I think. But the Z9 costs so you are sort of comparing the Z7ii and D850 and IMO the D850 nudges it because the focussing of the Z7ii isn’t up to D850 speed and as I said before, do your bit and the D850 will reward you. Plus right now there’s plenty of very good condition bodies available with people switching to mirrorless.
 
Both are great cameras and I have had both (still have the Z7II) the electronic viewfinder takes some getting used to and I hated it at first, after a while I actually prefer it to the optical, I bought another D500 to complement it as the autofocus was not up to what I needed and is well documented but not as bad as its made out to be but again I could not do without the D500 autofocus, one day I will go Z9 when the dust settles.
 
SFTPhotography said:
@lindsay

Nikon D850 Digital SLR Camera (Body Only)

£1,910.00 - 12 Months<br />Warranty - 14 Days<br />Money Back - 100%<br />Brand New - Free<br />Shipping - Import Tax<br />Included
www.e-infin.com www.e-infin.com
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I have that page open in my browser, also Panamoz at £1950. I’ve been debating whether to do this or go for the new Olympus OM-1, but using both Nikon (D200 IR converted) and Olympus (E-M1-2) today, I did prefer the feel and usability of the Nikon body so I reckon the D850 is top of my shopping list. As I’ve bought from e-infinity before quite happily, I will probably press the button on that when I next get paid.
 
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lindsay said:
I have that page open in my browser, also Panamoz at £1950. I’ve been debating whether to do this or go for the new Olympus OM-1, but using both Nikon (D200 IR converted) and Olympus (E-M1-2) today, I did prefer the feel and usability of the Nikon body so I reckon the D850 is top of my shopping list. As I’ve bought from e-infinity before quite happily, I will probably press the button on that when I next get paid.
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I would tbh. As much as I go on, and on, and on, about the 645z these really aren't far off. Same resolution on the long end, only a difference between 6192 and 5555 on the short end so you can make monster prints and pixel peep to your heart is content.

The 645z definitely performs better at ISO's like 200, 320, 400 where it's just as clean as it is at ISO100 - but the D850 at base ISO (64) is just as clean as the 645z at base ISO (100) and both camera's files pull back with a cleanness I've never seen before - maybe the GF100 is as clean but really nothing from Phase One, Hasselblad is any cleaner - just more resolution - THAT's how good these little cameras (and I say little because I am now really used the 645z) are. If you stick on ISO64 your D850 will blow your mind.

The only thing I would say is because of the small pixel pitch diffraction is very noticeable beyond F11 - visible softening (the sort you can actually see in real life not just in charts) kicks in at F13 - the 645z you can just stop right down due a) larger physical sensor b) much larger photosites on the sensor.

The plus of the Z series bodies is the newer lenses - but if you shoot stopped down there isn't really any real world difference between the latest F mount ED, G stuff and the Z S-line stuff. At wider apertures - yes but you can stick a ton of cheapish decent glass on a D850 and experience medium format IQ and almost by a hairs medium format resolution for half the price of a 50mp medium format camera.

They won't last long at that price.
 
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Interesting thread and thanks for all the contributors! I currently have a D5 and D810 - and am looking at changing the D810 for either the 850 or Z7 (not the z7ii) as I have the D5 for anything that moves, I am learning towards a Z7 simply for the eye-af that it affords, I am well and truly fed up shooting fast primes on the 810 and praying it's got the focus correct haha.

I tried a z7ii a while ago and found it to be superb for people shots - I personally find it difficult to frame properly using the screen, but this will come with practice I am sure.

I loved eye af on my fast primes, it breathed new life into the 35 1.4, 105 1.4 and 200 f2

Decisions decisions ....
 
In the cycling world it's a general rule that the ideal numbers of bikes a person should own is n+1 where n is the number of bikes they currently own. I think the same holds true in the world of photography.;)
 
nandbytes said:
congrats, probably the best overall DSLR available and that will be made.
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I'd probably agree - £ for £. As amazing as the 645z is - it literally costs double for an extra 637 px on the short side. Lens's are stellar but very few to pick from. Actual colour depth, shadow recovery at base ISO - I cannot actually see the difference.

Re will it be the last DSLR ever made - not sure. Given how well the D850 sells - Nikon might want to do another - I believe it still outsells the equivalent Z series. In Japan - I think the best selling camera right now is the new Pentax K3. What they might do - is evolve the mirrorless camera's but keep making the D850 for a long while yet.
 
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toohuge said:
Interesting thread and thanks for all the contributors! I currently have a D5 and D810 - and am looking at changing the D810 for either the 850 or Z7 (not the z7ii) as I have the D5 for anything that moves, I am learning towards a Z7 simply for the eye-af that it affords, I am well and truly fed up shooting fast primes on the 810 and praying it's got the focus correct haha.

I tried a z7ii a while ago and found it to be superb for people shots - I personally find it difficult to frame properly using the screen, but this will come with practice I am sure.

I loved eye af on my fast primes, it breathed new life into the 35 1.4, 105 1.4 and 200 f2

Decisions decisions ....
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I hate to say this - you might be better trying a Sony - I felt the EVFs were a little better in the latest greatest A7RivA over the Z7ii. I cannot say I like the EVFs but the on sensor phase detect will enable very fast and accurate focussing - particularly shooting close to or wide open. For landscape users - it's an irrelevance and the usability of the DSLR wins out.

Money no object - Z9 would be a good call.
 
SFTPhotography said:
I'd probably agree - £ for £. As amazing as the 645z is - it literally costs double for an extra 637 px on the short side. Lens's are stellar but very few to pick from. Actual colour depth, shadow recovery at base ISO - I cannot actually see the difference.

Re will it be the last DSLR ever made - not sure. Given how well the D850 sells - Nikon might want to do another - I believe it still outsells the equivalent Z series. In Japan - I think the best selling camera right now is the new Pentax K3. What they might do - is evolve the mirrorless camera's but keep making the D850 for a long while yet.
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I was referring to overall capability. 645Z isn't great for anything that moves neither are other Pentax FF or APS-C DSLRs.
And I said probably so may be Pentax one day will make a DSLR with 45+ mp and AF as capable as D850. Somehow I doubt it given the demand.

D850 may be outselling equivalent Z series but Z series hasn't exactly set a very high bar! And that's because of Nikon's own fault for not committing fully to Z series like canon did with their RF. They have even publicly admitted to that.
All that meant is nikon let sony take over second place overall and 1st place in FF market.

In business you don't compete by making more of the same which is why Sony dumped a-mount ages ago, they knew they wouldn't get much market share making same things as Canon and Nikon. In case of DSLRs unless Nikon is just competing against Pentax they won't be making the same mistake again like they did with D780 and developing more DSLR tech.
 
nandbytes said:
I was referring to overall capability. 645Z isn't great for anything that moves neither are other Pentax FF or APS-C DSLRs.
And I said probably so may be Pentax one day will make a DSLR with 45+ mp and AF as capable as D850. Somehow I doubt it given the demand.

D850 may be outselling equivalent Z series but Z series hasn't exactly set a very high bar! And that's because of Nikon's own fault for not committing fully to Z series like canon did with their RF. They have even publicly admitted to that.
All that meant is nikon let sony take over second place overall and 1st place in FF market.

In business you don't compete by making more of the same which is why Sony dumped a-mount ages ago, they knew they wouldn't get much market share making same things as Canon and Nikon. In case of DSLRs unless Nikon is just competing against Pentax they won't be making the same mistake again like they did with D780 and developing more DSLR tech.
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Sensors come from suppliers - and now most come with on sensor phase detect - which is fine for mirrorless - and still workable for DSLR cameras - although I think it's preferable to not have it on the sensor for the small risk of striping or banding - but that isn't workable for mirrorless cameras. As sensor tech evolves - it becomes less and less of an issue. I never saw it in GF100 RAWs for instance - but it CAN come up.

However - if users still buy D850's as opposed to Z7s - then that means there is a market for them. Canon might have gained more sales by running EF mount DSRLs as well.

All you have to do is drop the new sensor, processers etc into a DSLR shell. It's not costly to produce especially. People will buy them for as long as they make them. That makes the maker money. There is certainly a well heeled, older demographic - who still want the DSLR camera.

Look for instance at the sheer number of D850 users on this forum. And when you are out with a camera, I'd say close to 50% of others will have a DSLR - not a mirrorless. Remember - most "photographers" are amateurs - and the most popular form of "amateur" photography is landscape - so what does a Z7 offer them that a D850 doesn't - other than it's smaller - and a D850 is a pretty small thing
 
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SFTPhotography said:
However - if users still buy D850's as opposed to Z7s - then that means there is a market for them. Canon might have gained more sales by running EF mount DSRLs as well.

All you have to do is drop the new sensor, processers etc into a DSLR shell. It's not costly to produce especially. People will buy them for as long as they make them. That makes the maker money.
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if only it were that simple....

Nikon will concentrate on mirrorless and if their DSLRs continue to sell more than Zs which already aren't selling as well it will be a real problem for Nikon rather than being a good thing for them

petapixel.com

Nikon to Focus on Mirrorless as It Anticipates Historic $720M Loss

Nikon's worrisome financial situation has cascaded as a result of the deflated camera market caused by the fallout from COVID-19, and in an effort to
petapixel.com petapixel.com
 
nandbytes said:
if only it were that simple....

Nikon will concentrate on mirrorless and if their DSLRs continue to sell more than Zs which already aren't selling as well it will be a real problem for Nikon rather than being a good thing for them

petapixel.com

Nikon to Focus on Mirrorless as It Anticipates Historic $720M Loss

Nikon's worrisome financial situation has cascaded as a result of the deflated camera market caused by the fallout from COVID-19, and in an effort to
petapixel.com petapixel.com
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It's an interesting read - but if they haven't bothered with Z at all - they might have made more money. They've spent a lot developing new lens's for camera's that people aren't buying.....because they're buying the DSLR. Had they made the new lenses backward compatible for the older camera's - they could be making more money as a lot of DSLR users might fancy these new sharper S line beasts.

Again - the D850 still outsells the Z equivalent. The loss maker is the Z, not the D - unless they are making a loss with every D series sale.

But you have to speculate to accumulate - but I'd find it hard to buy a Z7 or Z7ii when I could get more MPX from a Sony A7Riv thing - and less phase detect striping/banding issues.

They need more MPX, with the same or better DR to lure people out of their D850's into something newer - only then will they see the situation reverse. A Z7ii just won't cut it. They should have launched these with 60mp.

The Z9 shows promise over D5 and D6 - better res, better AF etc. What does Z7 have over a D850 for a landscaper user (who really is who buys these).
 
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SFTPhotography said:
I hate to say this - you might be better trying a Sony - I felt the EVFs were a little better in the latest greatest A7RivA over the Z7ii. I cannot say I like the EVFs but the on sensor phase detect will enable very fast and accurate focussing - particularly shooting close to or wide open. For landscape users - it's an irrelevance and the usability of the DSLR wins out.

Money no object - Z9 would be a good call.
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I'd love a z9, but it's huge money and I now only volunteer rather than shoot professionally.

Interesting about the Sony - I agree with you.... I already shoot Canon and Nikon and adding a 3rd system would be insane! I have a lot of Nikon glass that I'd like to see superior performance for and as a stop gap until the z9 (several years away) the z bodies looked to the best option.

@SFTPhotography I agree with all your points in your latest post. It's why choosing between the z7 & 850 is difficult as aside from the eye af, the z7 is imo inferior in every way
 
SFTPhotography said:
It's an interesting read - but if they haven't bothered with Z at all - they might have made more money. They've spent a lot developing new lens's for camera's that people aren't buying.....because they're buying the DSLR. Had they made the new lenses backward compatible for the older camera's - they could be making more money as a lot of DSLR users might fancy these new sharper S line beasts.

Again - the D850 still outsells the Z equivalent. The loss maker is the Z, not the D - unless they are making a loss with every D series sale.

But you have to speculate to accumulate - but I'd find it hard to buy a Z7 or Z7ii when I could get more MPX from a Sony A7Riv thing - and less phase detect striping/banding issues.

They need more MPX, with the same or better DR to lure people out of their D850's into something newer - only then will they see the situation reverse. A Z7ii just won't cut it.

The Z9 shows promise over D5 and D6 - better res, better AF etc. What does Z7 have over a D850 for a landscaper user (who really is who buys these).
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May be someone else here can explain this to you because I can't be any more clearer. Nikon have themselves admitted that thier issue was sticking with DSLRs longer than they should have. They are losing market share and hence making a loss because of it.
People aren't buying DSLRs any more, they are switching to mirrorless and it'll happen with or without Nikon. If they didn't make Z mount they'd be loosing even more customers and making a bigger loss.
If they stick with DSLRs they'll end up like Pentax or worst. It's pretty clear thier ambition is higher than just to compete for 1-2% of the market share.

PDAF stripping is a non-issue. Myself and many 1000 others have shot without it affect any pictures. Your photo will most likely be ruined long before the stripping would ruin it.
so far I haven't seen a single good photograph that was ruined solely because of this issue. It's really only academic, and I can produce it too in my room.
 
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nandbytes said:
May be someone else here can explain this to you because I can't be any more clearer. Nikon have themselves admitted that thier issue was sticking with DSLRs longer than they should have. They are losing market share and hence making a loss because of it.
People aren't buying DSLRs any more, they are switching to mirrorless and it'll happen with or without Nikon. If they didn't make Z mount they'd be loosing even more customers and making a bigger loss.
If they stick with DSLRs they'll end up like Pentax or worst. It's pretty clear thier ambition is higher than just to compete for 1-2% of the market share.

PDAF stripping is a non-issue. Myself and many 1000 others have shot without it affect any pictures. Your photo will most likely be ruined long before the stripping would ruin it.
so far I haven't seen a single good photograph that was ruined solely because of this issue. It's really only academic, and I can produce it too in my room.
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What part of the D850 outsells the Z7 isn't clear.

People are buying DSLRs and Nikons iseue might be the issue they think they have.

They'd have sold more Z series cameras if they'd made a better product- ie more resolution than the more likable product they've been making for years.

Z7iii/Z8 might be the one to solve their issues and an expanding lens line up will help. But slightly better variants of lenses they make for F won't help that much.

Canon got that right with RF ie 100 to 500 RF zoom vs 100-400 EF etc.

Some new and exciting zoom lenses with different FL ranges etc could invigorate the product
 
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SFTPhotography said:
What part of the D850 outsells the Z7 isn't clear.
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And so do a lot of other things, Z7 isn't really a high bar is it.
SFTPhotography said:
They'd have sold more Z series cameras if they'd made a better product
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And they could have if they hadn't split their already limited resources between mirrorless and DSLRs.
SFTPhotography said:
Canon got that right with RF ie 100 to 500 RF zoom vs 100-400 EF etc.

Some new and exciting zoom lenses with different FL ranges etc could invigorate the product
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This we can agree on :D
But canon RF lenses are really expensive too.
Innovation costs money and resources both of which Nikon is struggling on right now.
 
nandbytes said:
And so do a lot of other things, Z7 isn't really a high bar is it.

And they could have if they hadn't split their already limited resources between mirrorless and DSLRs.

This we can agree on :D
But canon RF lenses are really expensive too.
Innovation costs money and resources both of which Nikon is struggling on right now.
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Without DSLR sales they'd be even deeper in the red

They've not developed a DSLR for ages - they're not taking any resources in from an R&D point of view. And they're selling well.

Development of another DSLR won't take a lot - take the D850 chassis and stick in the new processors and sensor- and voila you'll have a camera that'll make money along side the new mirrotless one
 
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