D700 price reduction

jameshobson

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Just wondering what you think about any price changes / drops there will be for the d700 currently you get them around £1,300 to £1,500 used I think so when a d800 is released do you think this price will drop much or stay at the same or similar price, right now I can't justify spending £1,500 on a camera but might hold out and get one if you think they will go down to about £1,000
 
The specs for the D800 if one believes the rumours don't make it a competitor to the D700. The D700 is a very popular and very capable camera that won't suddenly go out of style. I predict very little change in its price.
 
Adgreed with the above,can't see them droping for a long while yet,their mine be the odd one,with a high shutter count,and some tough pro use coming in at that price :)
 
If anything, the existence of the new model at £2400 makes any sub-£1500 D700 seem like a bargain. If you want a sub-£1000 D700 then you'll wait a while and end up with a subpar example, possibly requiring repair for that price. instead, you just have to pony up and pay the going market rates, I'm afraid.

I predict that the used D700 prices won't change too much, but the used market value will strengthen.
 
I got fed up with waiting for the D700 to go down in price with the release of a D800. My new D700 arrived last week!

Some valid points above, if the D800 is around £2.5k then the D700 hovering around it's current £1.7k would make sense.

Something I noticed though, since the announcement of a possible release date of the D800 the price for the D700 seems to have risen slightly. I ended up paying £50 more than I would have if I hadn't waited! Warehouse express have been slowly increasing the price from the lowest to one of the highest while staying out of stock.

If you want a low light camera this one is amazing. I played about with an ISO of 800 over the weekend and it looks pretty damn amazing!
 
I'm sure I saw one go for under £1200 on here not long ago.
 
I got fed up with waiting for the D700 to go down in price with the release of a D800. My new D700 arrived last week!

Some valid points above, if the D800 is around £2.5k then the D700 hovering around it's current £1.7k would make sense.

Something I noticed though, since the announcement of a possible release date of the D800 the price for the D700 seems to have risen slightly. I ended up paying £50 more than I would have if I hadn't waited! Warehouse express have been slowly increasing the price from the lowest to one of the highest while staying out of stock.

If you want a low light camera this one is amazing. I played about with an ISO of 800 over the weekend and it looks pretty damn amazing!

Same here, spent a lot of last year waiting for news of a D800 mainly in the hope that it would knock D700 prices down to affordable level. As rumours of the D800 aiming at a totally different market emerged and then the announcement of the D4 but no D800, I thought 'sod it, not waiting forever'. Bought mine a couple of weeks ago from MPB for about £1300 which seemed a good price for a guaranteed one. Couldn't be happier! But ISO 800 is not even trying! I've had a lot of clean shots at 6400 and even 12,800 as long as I take care to expose to the right.

If, and it's a big IF the D800 rumoured specs are true, I can't see the release of the D800 having any affect whatsoever on D700 values. It looks to be aimed at the D3X market. That's a bit of a shame as a D700S with the D3S sensor and some other goodies would have made more sense to me but I'm sure Nikon know what they're doing. I do wonder if the D4's release may have a bigger affect on D700 values. If a few D3S's find there way onto the used market and people trade up from there D700's to them then that may have an affect but who really knows?
 
ISO 800 is not even trying! I've had a lot of clean shots at 6400 and even 12,800 as long as I take care to expose to the right.

My last camera was a D200 so clean shots at an ISO of 800 was amazing for me. I'll be pushing it to the limits soon enough, don't worry!
 
Depends where the D800 comes in in price. We already know the D800 will beat the D700 across the entire ISO range, whether 16 or 36 MP. The only question is how much of the currency changes Nikon passes on. If they absorb a chunk as for and it comes out at the same RRP as the D700 (£2300ish) then the D700 used will drop as the street price of a D800 (and therefore the price of remaining new D700 stock) drops. If it comes in higher, then that won't happen as quickly.

That it will fall in price I don't think is in question. The nature and pace of that fall is, though.
 
How do we know this?

A 16MP FF sensor would mean that it's using the D4 sensor. Given that seems to be at least as good as the D3s (likely a bit better, but raw files would be needed to confirm) we can safely say it'll be better than the D700.

A 36MP sensor would use the pixel design for the D7000. Per area the D7000 outperforms the D700 (compare DX crop from D700 to a D7000) for noise, dynamic range and colour fidelity. So a FF would outperform it absolutely, given it would have more efficient pixels (lower read noise, higher QE, higher FWC per unit area) over the same area. Plus that pixel design is near 2 years old now, so may well have been improved on.

Nothing especially magical, just four years of gradual improvement.
 
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A 16MP FF sensor would mean that it's using the D4 sensor. Given that seems to be at least as good as the D3s (likely a bit better, but raw files would be needed to confirm) we can safely say it'll be better than the D700.

A 36MP sensor would use the pixel design for the D7000. Per area the D7000 outperforms the D700 (compare DX crop from D700 to a D7000) for noise, dynamic range and colour fidelity. So a FF would outperform it absolutely, given it would have more efficient pixels (lower read noise, higher QE, higher FWC per unit area) over the same area. Plus that pixel design is near 2 years old now, so may well have been improved on.

Nothing especially magical, just four years of gradual improvement.

I wasn't under the impression that the D7000 out performs the D700. Not seen a direct comparison, do you have a link?
 
The D700 has been around £1800 for at least 3 years now.
I see no reason for that to change at all, regardless of what new body may or may not be coming
 
The D7000 is widely believed to be about a stop worse then the 700, not better. Base dynamic range is better on the APS-C sensor, but that's not the reason the 700 has its enviable reputation; however, it might be very relevant to the new 800 if that's chasing resolution as a D3X type of replacement. However, the sensors behave differently and you'll notice that texture and fine tonality are a world better on the 700 at higher ISO levels. There are no properly done reviews on the web that suggest otherwise, I'm afraid.

One thing is for certain; until its announcement, nobody can be sure of the specs or the performance of the D800. You can be sure of the price, though; it'll sell near or at RRP for the first few months, especially as Nikon have ratified and consolidated their pro dealer network here in the UK and are exerting tight control over price and sales points.
 
I wasn't under the impression that the D7000 out performs the D700. Not seen a direct comparison, do you have a link?

from sensorgen.info:

First column's QE (quantum efficiency - percentage of incoming light that becomes charge). Second is minimum read noise, third column is saturation capacity (important for native ISO, and in conjunction with read noise, dynamic range). The D7000 pixels are absolutely better for the first two, and as the third is per pixel, per unit area the D7000 wins (3 D7000 pixels fit into a D700 one giving an equivalent 150k saturation capacity, which is why the D7000 has native ISO 100 despite higher QE).

D700 38% 5.3 58111
D7000 48% 2.5 49058

Take the DxOmark calculations and subtract 3.5dB from the SNR reading and 1.2 stop from the DR reading to account for sensor area. There's a thread on FM with equivalent images from a D700 and 7000 as well which show it, and if you know anyone with a 7000 nearby you can see it for yourself.

Note that I am not saying the D7000 has a better sensor than the D700 (it might at ISO100, but after that no. It is hard to tell the difference till ISO800 though, except for under reddish light. For some reason the D7000 really likes blowing the red channel :bang:)

I am saying a FF sensor based on it would be better than the D700 sensor, more so after two years of slight improvement.

I'm also making no judgment as to how much that improvement is worth. My own opinion is there's never any point upgrading unless a change will measurably improve something deemed important, and that really depends on the individual.
 
The D7000 is widely believed to be about a stop worse then the 700, not better. Base dynamic range is better on the APS-C sensor, but that's not the reason the 700 has its enviable reputation; however, it might be very relevant to the new 800 if that's chasing resolution as a D3X type of replacement. However, the sensors behave differently and you'll notice that texture and fine tonality are a world better on the 700 at higher ISO levels. There are no properly done reviews on the web that suggest otherwise, I'm afraid.

One thing is for certain; until its announcement, nobody can be sure of the specs or the performance of the D800. You can be sure of the price, though; it'll sell near or at RRP for the first few months, especially as Nikon have ratified and consolidated their pro dealer network here in the UK and are exerting tight control over price and sales points.

There are plenty. What you are forgetting is that the D7000's sensor is less than half the size of the D700's. Make the sensor bigger and you improve everything - by a little over a stop if you make it FX.

Which was my point.
 
If we're looking at pure costs, then, factor in sensor yield, and the price of raw manufacturing and silicon stock price rises over the last few years. The new D800 will not come in cheap, even before you then factor in the Yen, and the world/Eurozone woes.

I'd be interested to see a lab test demonstrating the higher ISO texture rendition and tonality of the D7000 improving upon the 4 year old FX sensor. If you dig out the link, post it on here.

I will note an important caveat here; it seems those of us with D700s are robustly defending the used price, and those with APS-C cameras are feverishly predicting a landslide in the secondhand market.... Time will tell! Gentlemen, place your bets!
 
There are plenty. What you are forgetting is that the D7000's sensor is less than half the size of the D700's. Make the sensor bigger and you improve everything - by a little over a stop if you make it FX.

Which was my point.

But they would be making the sensor bigger and vastly increasing the pixel count to maintain a similar pixel density so the advantage of full frame may be lost. I don't know, just speculating.

It does beg the question though, if the D800 sensor is a full frame 36mp derivative of the D7000 and performs better than the D700 in terms of iso, why is the top of the range D4, hobbled with a measly 16mp?
 
Just wondering what you think about any price changes / drops there will be for the d700 currently you get them around £1,300 to £1,500 used I think so when a d800 is released do you think this price will drop much or stay at the same or similar price, right now I can't justify spending £1,500 on a camera but might hold out and get one if you think they will go down to about £1,000

I don't think you'll see a drop in D700 used prices if the price hints from the US and Japan of around £24-2600 are anything to go by, or if the promised drop in frame rate to 4ps is true.

What these new specs may suggest is that either Nikon will leave the D700 in production, or that the D400 when it finally arrives will be well over £1500, otherwise there will be a huge price gap between the most expensive APS-C and the cheapest FF bodies in their range....
 
But they would be making the sensor bigger and vastly increasing the pixel count to maintain a similar pixel density so the advantage of full frame may be lost. I don't know, just speculating.

It does beg the question though, if the D800 sensor is a full frame 36mp derivative of the D7000 and performs better than the D700 in terms of iso, why is the top of the range D4, hobbled with a measly 16mp?

The advantage of full frame is in the area of the whole sensor. Don't believe me? The D3x has comparable pixels than the D90 in almost every way, and they're only just barely bigger. Yet the D3x smacks the D90 silly IQ wise, given that it's near indistinguishable from a D3 up to ISO1600 (it's arguably better from 100-800) and keeps up very well up to 6400 (the highest it goes). As long as the component structures making up the pixel can be fabricated at the right size, pixel size on its own means nearly nothing.

A bigger sensor captures more light. So for a smaller sensor to be equivalent to bigger, it needs to be more efficient. Putting it in FX/DX terms, for a DX sensor to equal an FX one, it needs to have more than twice the QE while maintaining the same DR, or the same QE and well capacity while more than halving read noise at every ISO. And if you do that to a DX sensor, well, there's nothing but price stopping you from doing the same things to an FX sensor.

It doesn't really beg the question. A DSLR is so much more than just the sensor. Camera designers have a lot of constraints to consider.

As for the D4 being hobbled? Mixture of practical and marketing constraints. On the marketing side, most photographers don't understand advanced maths, optics, signal processing or electronics. It's not especially relevant to a photographer beyond "does this camera do what I need it to?" which means that sometimes misinformation propagates.
Kind of like the misunderstanding of ABS and CDS putting a bit of a crimp in economic performance. You don't sell to your customers by telling them they're blatantly wrong, or by telling them that they have to put twice as much work in to get the same IQ (at high ISO, you don't get anything like the nominal resolution)

On the practical side, to make smaller pixels properly you need more advanced equipment. Silicon lithography equipment is hilariously expensive, so most camera stuff is done on castoffs from microprocessor companies. For reference, the newest CPU fabs use equipment that can make a transistor 22nm across. DSLR sensor fabs tend to use equipment that makes transistors 130-180nm across. Making smaller pixels can be expensive.

In addition to that, more pixels means more data. If you have a 36MP sensor running at 12 fps as the D4 does, you're generating...700+MB a second. To get that off the sensor in any appreciable amount of time means driving the circuitry at a very high frequency (the distance the data has to travel in a given amount of time and the amount of data tell you the needed frequency). To do that generates heat and crosstalk and other things that impact the integrity of the data, so it's not really an option. Not only that, if you're running at the moderate or high ISO range, you're not getting the nominal resolution anyway. So you'd have made all these changes, charged money for them, and they wouldn't actually provide a benefit to your target market (high performance, high speed, low light shooting).

Those in the market for a D4 would rather have better FPS and improved rolling shutter than higher nominal resolution, and really, 16MP isn't exactly poor resolution. And even if the data could be read sufficiently quickly off the sensor, buffer performance wouldn't be the greatest, given the fastest cards we have at the moment write at 125MB/s and to go faster means attaching pricey SSDs to an already space constrained camera.

Marketing departments do perform a useful function as much as many engineers and customers think otherwise.
 
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If we're looking at pure costs, then, factor in sensor yield, and the price of raw manufacturing and silicon stock price rises over the last few years. The new D800 will not come in cheap, even before you then factor in the Yen, and the world/Eurozone woes.

I'd be interested to see a lab test demonstrating the higher ISO texture rendition and tonality of the D7000 improving upon the 4 year old FX sensor. If you dig out the link, post it on here.

I will note an important caveat here; it seems those of us with D700s are robustly defending the used price, and those with APS-C cameras are feverishly predicting a landslide in the secondhand market.... Time will tell! Gentlemen, place your bets!

There's no self interest here, not at all...:lol:

The D700 used price isn't especially relevant to me. Doesn't provide enough of an improvement over the D7000 for my uses, I'd rather have a smaller camera than a larger one, so need a big improvement to justify the increase, and full frame for its own sake doesn't appeal to me.

As I said, I think it'll fall, but it's more of a "in the long run we're all dead" type prediction. How we get there is the interesting bit.

www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1062299/3#10103750
is the link. the D7000 is actually 1.55x crop, so a D700 is 2.4x the area rather than 2.25x, but otherwise the comparison is enlightening.

(it's also why I said that thing about more work - the 6400 image has a bit more noise but more detail, so while you could get a cleaner image with the same noise, you'd have to spend time doing noise reduction in PP, where a lower resolution sensor would effectively do that for you)

Just as a reference point as to why old tech is used for camera sensors - a 32nm process CPU with an area of 435mm^2 (so about half the area of an FX sensor) sells for about $900, and these things sell in the hundreds of thousands to millions of units depending on model. An FX camera has all the mechanical bits and other electronics on top of the sensor, and is manufactured in the tens to hundreds of thousands of units.
 
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The advantage of full frame is in the area of the whole sensor. Don't believe me? The D3x has comparable pixels than the D90 in almost every way, and they're only just barely bigger. Yet the D3x smacks the D90 silly IQ wise, given that it's near indistinguishable from a D3 up to ISO1600 (it's arguably better from 100-800) and keeps up very well up to 6400 (the highest it goes). As long as the component structures making up the pixel can be fabricated at the right size, pixel size on its own means nearly nothing.

A bigger sensor captures more light. So for a smaller sensor to be equivalent to bigger, it needs to be more efficient. Putting it in FX/DX terms, for a DX sensor to equal an FX one, it needs to have more than twice the QE while maintaining the same DR, or the same QE and well capacity while more than halving read noise at every ISO. And if you do that to a DX sensor, well, there's nothing but price stopping you from doing the same things to an FX sensor.

It doesn't really beg the question. A DSLR is so much more than just the sensor. Camera designers have a lot of constraints to consider.

As for the D4 being hobbled? Mixture of practical and marketing constraints. On the marketing side, most photographers don't understand advanced maths, optics, signal processing or electronics. It's not especially relevant to a photographer beyond "does this camera do what I need it to?" which means that sometimes misinformation propagates.
Kind of like the misunderstanding of ABS and CDS putting a bit of a crimp in economic performance. You don't sell to your customers by telling them they're blatantly wrong, or by telling them that they have to put twice as much work in to get the same IQ (at high ISO, you don't get anything like the nominal resolution)

On the practical side, to make smaller pixels properly you need more advanced equipment. Silicon lithography equipment is hilariously expensive, so most camera stuff is done on castoffs from microprocessor companies. For reference, the newest CPU fabs use equipment that can make a transistor 22nm across. DSLR sensor fabs tend to use equipment that makes transistors 130-180nm across. Making smaller pixels can be expensive.

In addition to that, more pixels means more data. If you have a 36MP sensor running at 12 fps as the D4 does, you're generating...700+MB a second. To get that off the sensor in any appreciable amount of time means driving the circuitry at a very high frequency (the distance the data has to travel in a given amount of time and the amount of data tell you the needed frequency). To do that generates heat and crosstalk and other things that impact the integrity of the data, so it's not really an option. Not only that, if you're running at the moderate or high ISO range, you're not getting the nominal resolution anyway. So you'd have made all these changes, charged money for them, and they wouldn't actually provide a benefit to your target market (high performance, high speed, low light shooting).

Those in the market for a D4 would rather have better FPS and improved rolling shutter than higher nominal resolution, and really, 16MP isn't exactly poor resolution. And even if the data could be read sufficiently quickly off the sensor, buffer performance wouldn't be the greatest, given the fastest cards we have at the moment write at 125MB/s and to go faster means attaching pricey SSDs to an already space constrained camera.

Marketing departments do perform a useful function as much as many engineers and customers think otherwise.

Fascinating stuff. I won't pretend that I understand it all but appreciate the time taken to write it.
 
When is the D800 released, and when is there expected to be a D400 out?

Have to say, I cant see D700s being below £1k until the follow up to the D400/D800 is out. I guess many people wnating the D700 are D300 owners whose cameras were bought for £1k and now worth £500, so expecting the D700 at £1800 to halve in price too.
 
When is the D800 released, and when is there expected to be a D400 out?

Have to say, I cant see D700s being below £1k until the follow up to the D400/D800 is out. I guess many people wnating the D700 are D300 owners whose cameras were bought for £1k and now worth £500, so expecting the D700 at £1800 to halve in price too.

I wonder how many other D700 owners are in my position - I was hoping for a "mini D4" with all the D4 features in a D400 (read: cheaper) body, but by the looks of things Nikon have decided against going down that route again, so what do I do?

Realistically I can't afford/justify a D4, but the proposed D800 specs hold no interest for me, I don't want/need 36mp and I certainly don't want 4fps, so it looks as if my only option for an upgrade is a D3s, but given the £1000+ difference in price between that and the D4 I can't see any bargains to be had there for a while yet....
 
More on sensor sizes:-
having a full frame with smaller megapixels than a crop, usually means more silicon per pixel for the light to fall on, increasing sensitivity and dynamic range, and reducing noise.

thats my pennyworth anyway
 
I've been thinking about a D700 for sometime though money has really been the main issue. I think once you see a second hand D800 out there the D700 second hand will fall, until then the D800 maybe just out of some peoples price range who want fullframe and may still opt for the D700 so overall initially it will no doubt hold it's price for the next several months then fall.

I own a D300s nearly two years now. Been happy with it but increasingly i'd rather have full frame, that little extra quality not just sharpness but a few things really including the larger focusing screen.
 
This is straightly my opinion. As a marketing point of view of don't think Nikon will release D800 anytime soon to behonest.

Nikon D4 just announce and will hit the market soon. If Nikon going to release another FX camera this would potentially effect on the sale of D4. A D300s replacement will most likely to behonest since the camera is older and a D400 will out perform D7000 to make it better then the D7000 by alot. At the moment D300s only wins the D7000 bit a little.

Nikon never really enter the high mega pixel game anyway so 36mp on the D800 will be crazy. For example canon 1dX is 18+ pixel where as the D4 is only 16. Same to the D7000 where as most canon DSLR is 18+ pixel.

16mp D800 will be more realistic with more advance and newer technology then the D700.

But this doesn't mean D700 will drop below 1k straight away. I still can't see or comment a fault on the current D700.
 
I think we'll have a much better idea when people get their hands on the D4.....if that proves to be a significant step up from the D3/D3S we'll see a lot of used bodies on the market and ultimately that will impact D700 prices. Let's say D3S's start being available for under £2500 (I think they go for around £3k at the moment?) some people will want to upgrade from a D700...

Let's just say the D800 with rumoured specs gets within a stop of the low light performance of a D700 with significant improvement is resoluton/AF etc would people upgrade then ?
 
Let's just say the D800 with rumoured specs gets within a stop of the low light performance of a D700 with significant improvement is resoluton/AF etc would people upgrade then ?

If the D800 high ISO performance was tangibly better than the D700 and there were other improvements I'd certainly consider a swap in a year or so however the higher resolution would simply be a bonus not a selling point. I have no use that I can think of for 36mp.

If the D700 performs better at high ISO, I wouldn't swap. It was the main reason why I went full frame in the first place.
 
I certainly will go and buy a D3 if the D4 sale is good.

A used D3 is around £1800-1900 and D700 used is around £1300 atm.

If D4 sales is good then that means bunch of D3s will be in the used market which will make the normal D3 even cheaper used. Which would also affect the D700 used price. If D3 used is around £1500 then D700 used will be around £1000-1100
 
D3 sold on here for £1550 or £1600 recently, so prices may already be droping?
 
D3 sold on here for £1550 or £1600 recently, so prices may already be droping?

LCE had a minty 10k one for £1700 and I've seen similar mileage D3ss go for between £2400 (Ebay) and £2750 (dealer), so the prices are definitely on the slide.
 
I really can't see the D4 creating a mass buying spree, as for the D3/D3s dropping like a stone, I think it's only where someone is desperate to sell - the general cost of a decent S/H D3 is not £1500-£1600 and won't be for quite some time IMO.
 
LCE had a minty 10k one for £1700 and I've seen similar mileage D3ss go for between £2400 (Ebay) and £2750 (dealer), so the prices are definitely on the slide.

Inevitable over time. Look how much a D100 can be bought for now, £100?

I think the final D800 spec will ultimately dictate how quickly D700 prices slide. If enough people ditch their D700's (whatever the motivation), supply and demand will sort the rest.
 
All cameras drop in value, as will the D700 when the D800 appears, its all a matter of time, i predict that by the end of the year you will be able to buy one for £1000 or less second hand.
 
Okay so if D3 prices are coming down then people's idea that the D700 might even increase seem somewhat optimistic! I also think that makes continued D700 production less likely. If good used D3's are selling for less than a new D700 that will make it harder to sell...plus Nikon don't want the D700 stealing D800 sales.
 
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