Creativity - a learned skill or "you're just born with it"?

What I've learned from this thread is mostly that people cannot be shaken from their current belief system.

Even down to twisting the meaning of 'creativity' to suit their own agenda.


I came in thinking it was obvious, some people are born more talented than others, but creativity is like anything else in life, we can maximise our potential by exercising it.


True.............

I once heard in a lecture that creativity is like a muscle....
the more you exercise it the better you get at it.

I also think that it can grow better in some environments than others.

To extend the thoughts...
What is the difference between originality and creativity.


Awkward to define... that's what :)

Usually, being original is very close to being creative, as you're doing something no one has done before.

Many of the worlds great artists were not strong on originality, but were very creative ....

many painted or sculpted the same subject many many times.... very creatively.
many great photographers have approached all their subjects the same way, as to achieve a recognised style.
 
I tend to subscribe to the idea that anyone, with enough experience and learning can master something, at any age. This leads me down the line that creativity can be learnt and is as much about experimenting with things as knowing how to be creative.

I think, however that the problem or hindrance to creativity comes with people perception of being wrong. If people feel safe or know that getting things wrong won't hurt them then they will be more inclined to try to be creative and experiment, learn from those experiences and at worst, know what doesn't work, BUT if people feel a pressure to perform (either from others or themselves) then they will be more inclined to play it safe and go for the formulas that have been proven, all because they don't want to be "wrong"...
 
I tend to subscribe to the idea that anyone, with enough experience and learning can master something, at any age. This leads me down the line that creativity can be learnt and is as much about experimenting with things as knowing how to be creative.

Yes.. you're right, but learning new things (any things) gets harder as you get older. There's a wealth of evidence to support this.


I think, however that the problem or hindrance to creativity comes with people perception of being wrong. If people feel safe or know that getting things wrong won't hurt them then they will be more inclined to try to be creative and experiment, learn from those experiences and at worst, know what doesn't work, BUT if people feel a pressure to perform (either from others or themselves) then they will be more inclined to play it safe and go for the formulas that have been proven, all because they don't want to be "wrong"...

You get no argument from me here. Confidence is key. Which is why I think camera clubs can be the kiss of death for creativity. Too many people there who are too stuck in their ways, who will just reject things that are new and unknown. They don't know how to "judge" it by their rules, so they just assume it's crap and reject it. That hits the person's confidence, so they assume they have to do what they do in order to gain approval. Whereas a creative environment will nurture new ideas, examine them, find their worth. It will also challenge derivative images, not reward them with club prizes.
 
@big soft moose

Pete - my experience of university is almost the opposite of what you describe.

I'm trying to work out why that might be.

Probably because you had a good lecturer - as i said theres a big variation.

however this guy (who was top of the page when i searched 'photography courses' on the 'what uni 'student reviews site) clearly had an experience pretty similar to what i was talking about

From day one the main tutor was absent for the first month and a half of the course; the teaching was sloppy, the substitutes weren't even organised and sometimes didn't even turn up; The assessment period took 3 weeks longer than it should of done; the "etracker/moodle" system they use to keep our assignments updated online does NOT work, I had to go into the tech department 4 or 5 times in the first 2 weeks only to be told "We can't do anything about it", and the teaching standards were sloppy at best.

Tutors were absent, increasingly late every day and were often marking students late even though I was clearly 10 minutes earlier than starting time; letalone the time the tutors showed up. The teaching can barely be called that; they gave us a piece of work to do, never even marked it or checked it, and didnt even tell us the basic information/needs we needed for a pass, merit or distinction. The tutors tend to have problems with keeping their personal opinions to themselves and often blurted out random insults and criticism that wasn't even course-related

admittedly he was from a relatively tinpot ex polytechnic - I'd like to think that standards are higher at the better universities , although browsing down the reviews this seems to be far from an isolated instance.

The teaching described above sure as hell isn't teaching, or even mentoring/nuturing creativity
 
Nor did it teach him the difference between of and have.

It's a pet hate, and the fact that a graduate has such bad grammar says a lot about our education system.
 
Probably because you had a good lecturer - as i said theres a big variation.

however this guy (who was top of the page when i searched 'photography courses' on the 'what uni 'student reviews site) clearly had an experience pretty similar to what i was talking about
"From day one the main tutor was absent for the first month and a half of the course"

a student's opinion can only go one way from a start like that. We had a staff member who was seriously ill a few years ago though... was off for 3 months. The NSS survey results were terrible for that year. What can you do? By the time you get replacement staff... they feel cheated, and disgruntled, and there's little contingency in place now that everything has been cut back to the bone financially.


Had similar issues with our second years 2011 when a year tutor had to leave through ill health. You can't recover a cohort who have had a bad experience these days... no matter what caused it... they're customers and will be very vocal about it.
 
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At Uni we had bad lecturers and good ones, mind you we weren't doing a 'creative' subject. :p
Even the bad lecturers present and on time, until I ... sorry ... caused a walkout. Only once! :oops: :$
I guess it was just one of those proper Universities where people knew how to do a job. I only got a 2.2 :|
 
The problem now is managers that are running colleges purely as a business and see students as a source of revenue only... who treat academic staff as expendable, replaceable resources to be got rid of every time they decide they need a restructure. It only ever hurts the students, which in turn will hurt them back. Very short sighted. It's something that's set to get a whole lot worse before it gets better too. The biggest issue now is pressure to recruit numbers as opposed to recruit ethically. It's gets tougher every year to tread that line. A point will arrive fairly soon where I couldn't continue with a clear conscience.
 
At Uni we had bad lecturers and good ones, mind you we weren't doing a 'creative' subject. :p
Even the bad lecturers present and on time, until I ... sorry ... caused a walkout. Only once! :oops: :$
I guess it was just one of those proper Universities where people knew how to do a job. I only got a 2.2 :|

If it's not a 'red brick university', it's not a proper university !

Sorry, I couldn't resist :-)
 
We're regressing in a way, and what Nick says above could well turn out to be true in a few year's time.... there are signs that it's happening now. As smaller college's trim back and get teachers and lecturers to work harder and harder and also take on other roles to save money... the quality will drop. Red Brick unis... well... they always have research money. We've got only what the students bring through the door... which ain't much because management wimpled out when setting fees under the new fee structure. With all the good intentions of bringing education to a wider range of society, the fiscal madness driven by Tory educational policy will actually further the divide between the big Unis and the small colleges... and hence rich and poor. Back to the good old days :(
 
I retired 14 years ago.... even then Colleges and universities had no option but be part of the "Education Industry". Money was the driving factor in every management meeting. It is true most of the thoughts were on how the effect on the teaching and learning could be minimised. But budgets were inflexible as to the bottom line. Income was shrinking and student numbers growing.
I would suppose there is no difference now except the potential size of the deficit.
Colleges even with high HE content, had/have no "Research money" to juggle the books.
Foreign students were a godsend, but even that is now squeezed.
 
[edit]

Was just a pointless whine about work that's probably not politicly expedient :)

Move along....
 
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When i first started out as a designer, 30 years ago, i thought creativity was everything

I worked with a guy John Taggert who had been designing books for nearly 50 years, he told me you learn what good design is by doing it and seeing what people like, after a while you know what is good design

That is the 'craft' of design a learned skill.

However, there is more to it than that, as every once in a while you come up with a design that doesn't fit the craft and can be considered truly creative.

People are creative all the time, the trick is knowing that it is a creative idea and not ignoring it.

Just a thought or two....
 
Probably because you had a good lecturer - as i said theres a big variation.

however this guy (who was top of the page when i searched 'photography courses' on the 'what uni 'student reviews site) clearly had an experience pretty similar to what i was talking about



admittedly he was from a relatively tinpot ex polytechnic - I'd like to think that standards are higher at the better universities , although browsing down the reviews this seems to be far from an isolated instance.

The teaching described above sure as hell isn't teaching, or even mentoring/nuturing creativity

To balance it - I go to a 'tinpot ex polytechnic' and I am getting some of the best teaching I've ever experienced from a highly diverse set of lecturers who are *all* madly in love with teaching.

Written as I sit waiting for a discussion seminar at the British Museum from one lecturer, to be followed this afternoon by another discussion seminar at the Tate Britain by another.

However one thing I will say - as a mature student and someone who has at least a dozen friends who are lecturers/academics/teachers - that you only get out of a lecturer what you put in. If you stimulate them and bring ideas to the table and you want to engage with their subject, you will get a thousand times more out of them than someone who just sites at the back of the class and doesn't engage.
 
I posted this in another thread, but I think it implies here as well..

When I was at Art school many years ago at the end of term we had an open day when friends and family could come and view the pupils work..people would make comments such as " it's just paint splashed on paper", it's just a load of squiggells" or " it's a load old wood nailed together"..our senior art teacher would always retort "ah, but you didn't think of it, you didn't create it!" I always remember that..

..so I think I'm saying you either have a creative bent or you don't, some can be pointed in the right direction and become good..

Robin
 
However one thing I will say - as a mature student and someone who has at least a dozen friends who are lecturers/academics/teachers - that you only get out of a lecturer what you put in. If you stimulate them and bring ideas to the table and you want to engage with their subject, you will get a thousand times more out of them than someone who just sites at the back of the class and doesn't engage.

I've never been in higher education so I can't comment directly on that. I gave up on school at 14 and started going out gigging rather than doing homework because I realised it wasn't going to help me get into music, I left school at 16, going straight into music. I'm still here 17 years later so as silly a move as it potentially could have been it's one I'm thankful I made.

Anyway, that aside I think the whole 'you get out what you put in' thing is extremely important and I think it's something far too few people realise. So many people expect things to either come to them with no effort or they just can't be arsed putting that effort in. Either way it's a losing situation and they have no-one but themselves to blame. Sadly too many people look to blame others when they have problems rather than first looking at themselves.
 
I’ve not had chance to read the whole thread, but I can sort of guess the spread of the responses.

My own opinion is that some people are born with a particular way of looking at things and some people aren’t. The connections you build in your brain as you grow come to a certain degree from what’s around you and which you often have little control of. It can’t be a coincidence that the guitarist Slash had people such as David Bowie popping round his house as a kid and that he went to school with Lenny Kravitz.

I believe that those people who aren’t born that way can learn creativity if they put in the leg work in, read, practise, learn, teach all that sort of stuff. Open your mind, take something and jump off it, put your own twist on it, be inspired.

I’m not a creative type but I can learn about the art, study lots of pictures, work out what makes them stand out, figure out what I want to say and then use the tools to show that.

I don’t think there are many new things to do and I agree with the concept of standing on the shoulders to further our reach.

Heck, at the end of the day I sometimes take pictures of random stuff just because I like the wiggly lines or the funny shape or just the colour. Its all subjective and who knows, the junk I produce no may in 200 years time be revered as a masterpiece.

I will also add that there’s a load of stuff about the way peoples brains work and what advertising and the media would have us believe even if you don’t realise you are being influenced, but we can save that for another day.
 
Anyway, that aside I think the whole 'you get out what you put in' thing is extremely important and I think it's something far too few people realise. So many people expect things to either come to them with no effort or they just can't be arsed putting that effort in. Either way it's a losing situation and they have no-one but themselves to blame. Sadly too many people look to blame others when they have problems rather than first looking at themselves.

£9k a year as a mature student certainly focusses your mind on getting the most out of your lecturers and lectures...
 
I haven't had time to read all the comments but my humble opinion is we're all born with it to an extent, some more than others but it depends on how much we love it, how dedicated we are, how we nurture it and how much we want to progress. I think if you want something that is achievable enough you will get it.

My son started taking photo's aged 5. After his first time out with me on a landscape shoot I was astounded by how well he composed his pictures. After a while I bought him a DSLR and he just got better and better. Last year aged 6 his work was noticed and he was all over the press, The Mail, The Times, ITV news etc. It was noticed by Ricoh imaging UK and he is now an ambassador for them. He's just turned 7. For the first year I just let him do his own thing but am now helping him a little more but only when we're back at the computer. I am very conscious of the fact it must be his composition etc. My point being..... He is born with it and with a little nurturing he will be an amazing photographer. Here's a link to his 500px site http://500px.com/oliverandreasjones judge for yourselves.
 
He's got a father that nurtures his creativity.... he'll d OK. Almost all children are creative. In most cases it's something we're "taught" out of,
 
Still following the thought provoking and insightful comments being posted. Thank you to you all for them.

Mark ... You must be incredibly proud of your son. What a star you have there.

David .... I'm totally convinced by your views about creativity being something which can be learned given the will and the time to do the leg work and the commitment to the process. The issue I have is not one of time and commitment ... I'm newly retired at 60 and have all the time in the world, decent equipment and (I hope) a fully functioning set of grey matter to apply to the learning process. And I really do want to learn and get better and am prepared to work at that.

So I'd like to bring this back to my original question which was about improving the creativity of my photography. I read, browse books and web sites, look at the work of others, and I think I'm gradually refining a personal style and becoming more specific about what I do. But is there an obvious starting point to the learning process? Something practical I ought to do first before even trying to make an improvement?

I ask, because you're clearly someone with broad experience in the academic process and I hope you may be able to suggest a first step from which a new journey might begin.
 
The body, including the brain, is remarkably good at being fit for purpose. If it is exercised in a particular way then over time it performs better and better at that particular exercise. When this question was asked a couple of years ago DaveDotNet came up with a great answer. He said take lots and lots and lots of photographs and then keep taking photographs. The more you exercise your brain in this particular direction then the more you shape the way that you see things and the way you compose and shape the way that you render them with your camera. I am a big fan of acquired synaesthesia, wherein bending the neurology of the brain in a particular way over a long period actually causes the brain to behave differently. It's the 10,000 hours thing. Being profficient requires practice. There are some people who are better at this than others because they have better neuroplasticity or are more syneasthetic to start with but the short answer is 'yes' you can change the way your brain works over time by working at it.
 
The body, including the brain, is remarkably good at being fit for purpose. If it is exercised in a particular way then over time it performs better and better at that particular exercise. When this question was asked a couple of years ago DaveDotNet came up with a great answer. He said take lots and lots and lots of photographs and then keep taking photographs. The more you exercise your brain in this particular direction then the more you shape the way that you see things and the way you compose and shape the way that you render them with your camera. I am a big fan of acquired synaesthesia, wherein bending the neurology of the brain in a particular way over a long period actually causes the brain to behave differently. It's the 10,000 hours thing. Being profficient requires practice. There are some people who are better at this than others because they have better neuroplasticity or are more syneasthetic to start with but the short answer is 'yes' you can change the way your brain works over time by working at it.

Interesting stuff. Thanks for your alternative viewpoint. I have to admit to not being familiar with the neurological terminology. I'm getting to the point on this 10,000 hour journey where the actual process of using my camera is becoming second nature and, technically, my results are of passable quality. I clearly still have a way to go, though, and it seems the only way is to actually keep at it until I'm at a point where I'm happy with the results (I'm not there yet!) and feel that my work is comparable to that of others whose images I most admire. Think I'd better get my camera out and do a few more hours ... I'll get there in the end!!
 
Again the camera is a tool,and you can teach most people to use that tool,some will be better than others

Weather you can teach a person to have that eye,that make their photos stand above the rest i dont think so,you can encourage it :)
 
So I'd like to bring this back to my original question which was about improving the creativity of my photography. I read, browse books and web sites, look at the work of others, and I think I'm gradually refining a personal style and becoming more specific about what I do. But is there an obvious starting point to the learning process? Something practical I ought to do first before even trying to make an improvement?

I ask, because you're clearly someone with broad experience in the academic process and I hope you may be able to suggest a first step from which a new journey might begin.


My advice is forget about striving for things that just look good and impressive for the sake of it... shooting to utilise techniques and craft skills for no other reason to make a "good" photograph. You need to consider what you are shooting and why. What are you saying with your work? Why would I be interested? Why would anyone be interested? What makes it different, or original, and therefore interesting in it's own right?

Why in the name of all that's holy would I be interested in looking at one more Cake Smash baby photo or one more image of a flower. Why? It means nothing to me. It's not my baby, and I've seen countless other images of flowers just the same... so why would I think "That's good"? It may be technically good, and if asked, I'll comment on it's merits, but is it actually "good" as a photograph to a wider audience? It's only relevant to the parent of the child really. Who else cares? The merit... the ONLY merit to images like this to a wider audience are in technique, or as learning tools if you're interested in learning those techniques. Would you hang an image of someone else's baby smashing a cake on your wall? Would you buy a book of babies smashing cakes? Unless you're being ironic, I can't see why anyone who wants to create genuinely creative work would do this. It's a commercial enterprise.. you do it to make money. That's not necessarily what makes a great photograph is it?

Don't just look at other people's work to appreciate technical skill... look at it with a mind to working out why it was critically acclaimed in the first place, as the technical probably had little to do with it. Stop having "I want to make a great photograph" as your goal, and instead have "I want to make a great body of work that makes people think about the subject". Forget stuff produced to generate "likes" on flickr. It means nothing. I bet if Mary Ellen Mark put stuff no one's seen before in Flickr, it wouldn't get many likes, or make "explored". I bet Bill Brandt wouldn't get many likes either... or William Eggleston, or Weegee, or Robert Frank. So why place so much value in it? You're being judged by the public. Decide what you want to achieve. If all you want is adoration from the public, then just make shiny things - practice your craft, make impactful images that have wow factor: You'll do well. Just as middle of the road pop acts do well with the public.. so will your middle of the road eye candy. The dissonance arrives when people who shoot eye candy want to get the same serious recognition as artists. That's like One Direction moaning because they'll never win an Ivor Novello award. Why should they? They do nothing original, they do not innovate, and they are not pushing the boundaries of music writing or composition... the very thing the awards are designed to recognise. So in that vein, you get amaterurs who take very technically advances images that have tons of "wow" factor... 20K likes... explored a million times saying "I don't get it... how can photographers like Jurgen Teller make a mint and get famous and I can't". Well, the uncomfortable truth is, your work is not really offering anything. It may look astounding, but how is it any different from the billion other pretty pictures out there by a billion other amateurs? Even the really stunning visuals in National Geographic have a real purpose.. they educate and show things that enlighten.

Basically.. get embroiled in a subject you know well, or wish to know better, and use your camera to explore it. Research the subject... become expert in it, and document it, or illustrate it however you want... the value comes from the fact that you care, and you're showing me that you care. That doesn't mean it has to be documentary by teh way. Look at Fay Godwin's landscapes.... they're just landscapes... what makes then interesting is the themes they explore, and the fact that they need to be considered as a whole.. all of them... not just one at a time as a series of eye candy (which they're not... most camera clubs would slag them off horribly).

Look at Nadav Kander and work out why his portraits are so good. Never mind whether you LIKE them or not... never mind if you think TECHNICALLY you could do better (unlikely to be honest)... work out why he has managed to do what very few can.. get stuff on display in the National portrait gallery.... commissioned to shoot the world's most famous and influential people... why is that? Why is Mary Ellen Mark so revered when they're just back and white snapshots? Why was Cindy Sherman so revered for taking some technically flawed rear projection images, and photos of mannequins with genitalia? Why?

They had something to say of course. They created a reaction... they puzzled, challenged, divided... but they generated interest and discussion.

"Ahh... but why can't art just be there to look nice?" It can... no one's saying it can't. Joe Cornish does OK after all. But the world already has a Joe Cornish... so what are you going to bring to the table? Further more... how are you? By watching you tube tutorials on techniques and post processing? Really?

Purpose and originality is pretty much what you should be aiming for.

It's actually very, very hard to sum all this up in one paragraph. Essentially the process would be to have someone offer you ongoing critique on the work. Not someone who's going t just comment on your sharpness, composition, processing and rules of bloody thirds... but someone who's qualified to be CRITICAL of your work as a work of art... another artist in other words.

Either ignore Flickr or accept it for what it is: some useful online storage.

Learn to sift through the tech only crit from the real critique. Pay more attention to crit that actually discusses the images as means of communication and their content rather than technique.... or at least aren't JUST technique. Once you're a competent technician, put all that to one side.... or just separate it from the real crit... treat it as something else.

I don't have a silver bullet. No one does. If you want to start working on your output as something more serious than eye candy, then you need the crit of others who also think of photography as something more than creating eye candy. That's step one, surely.
 
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Don't just look at other people's work to appreciate technical skill... look at it with a mind to working out why it was critically acclaimed in the first place, as the technical probably had little to do with it. Stop having "I want to make a great photograph" as your goal, and instead have "I want to make a great body of work that makes people think about the subject". Forget stuff produced to generate "likes" on flickr. It means nothing. I bet if Mary Ellen Mark put stuff no one's seen before in Flickr, it wouldn't get many likes, or make "explored". I bet Bill Brandt wouldn't get many likes either... or William Eggleston, or Weegee, or Robert Frank. So why place so much value in it? You're being judged by the public. Decide what you want to achieve. If all you want is adoration from the public, then just make shiny things - practice your craft, make impactful images that have wow factor: You'll do well. Just as middle of the road pop acts do well with the public.. so will your middle of the road eye candy. The dissonance arrives when people who shoot eye candy want to get the same serious recognition as artists. That's like One Direction moaning because they'll never win an Ivor Novello award. Why should they? They do nothing original, they do not innovate, and they are not pushing the boundaries of music writing or composition... the very thing the awards are designed to recognise. So in that vein, you get amaterurs who take very technically advances images that have tons of "wow" factor... 20K likes... explored a million times saying "I don't get it... how can photographers like Jurgen Teller make a mint and get famous and I can't". Well, the uncomfortable truth is, your work is not really offering anything. It may look astounding, but how is it any different from the billion other pretty pictures out there by a billion other amateurs? Even the really stunning visuals in National Geographic have a real purpose.. they educate and show things that enlighten.

Seems like a bit of personal bias is creeping in here as to what styles of photography can be considered creative.

The comparison to music actually seems rather apt as many of the most acclaimed artists of the 20th century wouldn't be viewed as looking to convey a social/political message but to create a more basic emotional response.
 
Seems like a bit of personal bias is creeping in here as to what styles of photography can be considered creative.

You reckon? I would argue this strongly. How is letting a baby smash a cake creative? I'm not saying it's of no worth: People pay good money for it.. but as a creative, valued piece of work for a wider audience, how is it creative?
 
You reckon? I would argue this strongly. How is letting a baby smash a cake creative? I'm not saying it's of no worth: People pay good money for it.. but as a creative, valued piece of work for a wider audience, how is it creative?

I'd agree there but a lot of your posts so far seem to have pointed towards photography with an aspect strong social commentary as the only kind of valid creativity.
 
One of the great, and fascinating, difficulties with photography is that it can be so many things and put to so many uses - which all get muddled up in the overall concept of 'photography'. To further muddy the waters pretty much any area or discipline of photography can be, or not be, carried out creatively.

I think that what confuses a lot of amateurs/hobbyist in this is that they don't study photographic theory, culture, history and so on. They exist in an unchallenging bubble of 'nice' photographs unaware of all the other possibilities the medium offers.

For many all they are interested in making are 'nice' pictures. Stuff they can frame and put on their walls. They don't want to make a cultural, philosophical, artistic or political point. They don't want to break new ground. I'm not sure this to do with creativity or ambition. Maybe trying to force people to be more creative won't lead to them becoming happier with the pictures they make? I dunno.

To further the musical comparison it's somewhat like people who pick up a guitar because they want to learn to play and sound like their hero as opposed to people who pick up guitars because they want to make their own music. Both can be happy in what they do - although the latter will probably never be satisfied!
 
I'd agree there but a lot of your posts so far seem to have pointed towards photography with an aspect strong social commentary as the only kind of valid creativity.

I don't think it necessarily has to be social commentary, but if it contains some kind of discourse or narrative (psychological, political, something about the nature of photography itself and so on) then it's a significant head start.
 
One of the great, and fascinating, difficulties with photography is that it can be so many things and put to so many uses - which all get muddled up in the overall concept of 'photography'. To further muddy the waters pretty much any area or discipline of photography can be, or not be, carried out creatively.

I'd guess that besides Photograph's many different uses another issue is that its a medium where the more artistic end crosses the "modern art divide" which creates so wildly different viewpoints on its worth.

I think that what confuses a lot of amateurs/hobbyist in this is that they don't study photographic theory, culture, history and so on. They exist in an unchallenging bubble of 'nice' photographs unaware of all the other possibilities the medium offers.

For many all they are interested in making are 'nice' pictures. Stuff they can frame and put on their walls. They don't want to make a cultural, philosophical, artistic or political point. They don't want to break new ground. I'm not sure this to do with creativity or ambition. Maybe trying to force people to be more creative won't lead to them becoming happier with the pictures they make? I dunno.

To further the musical comparison it's somewhat like people who pick up a guitar because they want to learn to play and sound like their hero as opposed to people who pick up guitars because they want to make their own music. Both can be happy in what they do - although the latter will probably never be satisfied!

Again I wouldn't disagree there but the issue is less holiday/family snaps and commercial work vs art as it is, art that aims for a more purely emotional response vs art that looks to make a social/political statement, perhaps I'v misjudged him but Pookey's posting seems to me to point towards the latter.

To bring up the obvious name Ansel Adams seems to have been co oped into "respected art" by looking to emphasize the social/political message of his work yet his own stated intension was to capture the atmosphere or "spirit" of a location. Not that he lacked political motivation of course but your talking a very different mindset between promotion of conservation indirectly via appealing to the sublime representation of nature and its emotional worth vs say directly photographing environmental destruction.
 
I don't think the point is that purely aesthetic work can never be "creative", rather that it's difficult to provide something new in the purely aesthetic tradition because there's so much of it out there.

Adams, for example, may have been working with purely aesthetic intentions but he was a pioneer and a benchmark.

You can go out and take a pretty landscape photograph, and it can be genuinely striking or beautiful, but chances are you'll have broken no new ground. Whereas if you set out to tell a story (in one sense or another) you have much more scope for originality.
 
I'd agree there but a lot of your posts so far seem to have pointed towards photography with an aspect strong social commentary as the only kind of valid creativity.

I wouldn't say so. Looking back in this thread I've discussed many artists as examples: Weston with his still life images, or Fay Godwin with her landscapes. One of my all time favourite photographic books is Cape Light by Joel Meyerowitz, which is really a series of suburban landscapes. I've mentioned Gregory Crewdson who creates fantasy suburban scenes and interior domestic scenes, and I'm pretty certain I talked about David LaChapelle and Tim Walker, who shoot fashion. In the post you were actually responding to I mention Nadav Kander and Fay Godwin... how am I biased to social commentary? But we're social creatures, and we live in societies, so everything relevant is some kind of social commentary, surely?

It doesn't matter what you shoot, it's whether you have something to say with your work and whether it is original. It doesn't even matter what you say so long as it would be of interest to the viewer, or elicit a response from them. It has to engage culturally or psychologically in some way though. It has to have some relevance. Great landscapes can do that too, but it doesn't rely on that "Wow" factor, and why must landscape always be of a rural scene? When David Byrne got disqualified from Take a View in 2012 with this image, the winner by default became this image by Simon Butterworth. The majority of people in the amateur forums hated it. It wasn't pretty, It wasn't "wow".... so therefore it's crap. However, it's got far more to say. One is a scene that's already been taken by hundreds of other photographers hundreds of times, yet the one that was far less liked by amateurs was the original, unique and historically relevant landscape by Butterworth. It just wasn't pretty enough.
 
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Once again, many thanks to you all for the continued debate on a topic which clearly prompts strong opinions. I, for one, will be researching the work of the photographers mentioned - some I have heard of and some I have not - but trying to look deeper at the work to attempt to gain insights into what was in the originator's mind at the time, rather than simply looking at the end product as a simple visual output. Whether this approach results in greater personal satisfaction with my own outputs remains to be seen. But starting the research process and any subsequent (or consequent) attempts to progress in my photographic creativity feels like the start of the next step in my journey and a worthwhile aim.

Onward and upwards.
 
No doubt many of you will remember Cilla Black's TV programme 'Blind Date' a few years ago.......

I once watched TV documentary on Art. A leading Art Critique was invited on to the programme to comment on three pieces of art which were very nicely framed and being displayed on easels in front of a nice plain black backdrop. The Art Critique discussed each painting in turn. He discussed the strength, texture, and vibrancy of the oil paintings and what his interpretation was the the artist was trying to say........

I should say at this junction that to me there was no discernible image, in my minds eye just a complete mess of splattered paint.

........The Art Critique continued to exhort the qualities and virtue of this very unique, very avant-garde artiste and placed an approximate monetary value to each painting. The presenter also interjected on several occasions with lots of 'oh yes' and 'ah, I see'

The presenter then asked the critic "if he would like to meet the artist in question", to which the critic replied 'yes'. The screen was rolled back in true 'Blind Date' style to an accompaniment of a drum role, presumably for effect......

The artist was revealed, there sat a chimpanzee on a stool, dressed in a beret and paint covered smock no less, holding a pallet and paint brush in one hand and scratching his bits with other. There was a quick clip of the chimp throwing paint on the canvas, then the camera cut away to the pained expression of the critic. It was one of the funniest things I have seen on TV and it was serious. I did remember thinking at the time, poor chap, that's a bit unfair.

The Art Critic was pretty miffed that his credibility had been compromised and started doing lots of back-peddling. I keep searching YouTube to see if it is still out there but to no avail.

So where is all this leading?

The chimpanzee had certainly been very creative without a shadow of doubt. He might of had 5 mins instruction (monkey see, monkey do), conversely, he might not of done. The unfortunate Art Critic loved it and raved about. It reminded me of the fable 'The Emperors new cloths' - if you can't see it your stupid!

Before the grand reveal, I thought the paintings were total crap. Many other people would also think so too ! However, this chap had put a 'silly' monetary value to it. No doubt if those paintings had been for sale in a gallery someone would have thought 'that would look good in my living room!'

So in conclusion then:-

1. Creativity can be taught to anyone - even a monkey !

2. Anyone can produce a 'creative image' in any medium (photograph, drawing or sketch)

3. The resulting image quality will vary from the utterly brilliant to the diabolically appalling !

4. Some people will like it, some people may want to buy it and some people will dislike it or even hate it!

5. When giving 'constructive criticism or advice' do so in a positive, honest but humble manner and be prepared to be challenged.

:-)




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I feel there's a difference between being gifted/talented and being creative. I define gifted as being able to perceive and construct ideas not commonly identifiable by the general population while creativity can be developed given the right learning environment and exposure. In photography once you have views a couple of 1000s of good photos then more or less you'll be able to understand the elements of a good shot. With enough exposure and knowledge, creativity can be developed in ways where ideas can be reconstructed and personal style being develops :)

Pardon the grammar lol autocorrect slipped it's foot in :D
 
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I just remebered the phrase " Necessity is the mother of invention" sort of apt to me. I could be a lot more creative if I had something to achieve rather than ideas randomly popping into my head.
 
Just come across this post with what Creative people do differently;

Linky

I cant help but feel there is a certain irony with an article that tells you what a creative person does, especially as creativity is often linked with spontaneity and compulsion rather than fixed ideas or formula... :D
 
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