Creativity - a learned skill or "you're just born with it"?

they do if you go to sixth form college


Not really. FE and HE are very different animals.




Leaving that aside the essence of what you've said above is that creativity can be stimulated, and it can be mentored , but it hasn't substantiated the assertion that it can be taught per se - if someone isn't creative and won't open their mind to new ideas then doing so isn't something they can learn because creativity isn't a factual thing - they can't go away and read 'creativity for dummies' and suddenly become creative.

Well... someone refusing to be taught how to think creatively doesn't mean you can't teach creative thinking... it just means that person is stubborn :)

You can't read any "xxxx for dummies" and become anything, can you? ;)

I absolutely assure you that you CAN teach creativity. I'm not sure why this assertion is met with such resistance. I'd have thought that was fabulous news :) How creative they end up being I firmly believe is fixed by other natural attributes, like intelligence, and upbringing, but you can teach creativity. I absolutely insist this is true, because I've seen it happen. I'm not even suggesting it;s some secret, fantastic thing only I can do either... I see it all the time from many of my colleagues. Some people will hit a wall before others, sure... but you definitely can teach it.


Also the lecturing about what the education system involves is getting a bit old - we aren't a bunch of ignorant peasants who didn't go to "that big university and that" and spend our lives picking pig crap from between our toes while waiting for the next pronouncement from the intellectual elite.

When have I ever suggested you're ignorant Pete? Where's the attitude from ?

I have a BSc , and an MSc , and I'm about a third of a way through an MBA (both my parents are DPhils, my Sister is A Phd and a research fellow) - and I'm sure many other members here are likewise but don't feel the need to wear their academic credentials on their sleeve.

Neither do I. If I did.. you'd be well aware of what my academic qualifications/credentials are. However, you're not. Because I don't.


The insistence that you are factually correct and that it doesn't matter what others believe, seems to me to play to what I was talking about earlier - the 'god syndrome' where you either agree with your lecturer or you're 'wrong' which is the very antithesis of creativity

That has nothing to do with it. My insistence that you can teach creativity comes from witnessing it first hand, many many times. I'm not even suggesting it;s unique or special. Any one of my colleagues woudl give you the same answer, and be as certain as I am that it's possible. When you ask them why, they'd give the same answer: Because I do it for a living.


and....

If you can't resist getting personal Pete, then you'd best just stay out of the debate I think. I'm not insisting I'm right through any inflated sense of self-importance... merely because I see it happen all the damned time. It's as ordinary as passing wind.

What baffles me... is the sheer levels of rejection to the very idea of being able to teach creativity in this thread. Why is that?
 
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Creative people are just born with it but Practice can get you to some point. Also if you go out with a "I'm not creative" mindset, you won't get that shot you're after. A clear mind and a positive approach with practice will improve your 'Image Strike Rate' (People who follow cricket will get this). This is from personal experience.
 
I just think it's a shame so many people are adamant that creativity is some genetic act of fate, and that there's nothing you can do about it.

I can only think of two reasons why this should be that make any sense:

1. Those who are creative like to feel privileged, and the thought of it being something you can learn devalues what they hold dear.

2. For those that feel they are are not creative, being able to learn it would mean they have no excuse not to be when they perhaps thought they had.

Just my 2p worth.
 
Apologies in advance for the long post....

Because by understanding what people have done before you and WHY they did it, you learn how you can perhaps develop and apply your own ideas. You take bits from all different places and create something new. Or perhaps a work that you study inspires an idea of your own.

or you learn to slavishly copy the style of a photographer your lecturer likes in order to do it 'right' - I know not every teacher/lecturer is like that but there are fair few that are, and they turn out little mini mes of themselves.

Yet despite that, artists carry on producing original work.. how is that possible? It's because they constantly expose themselves to as wide a range of inspiration as they possibly can. You absorb this stuff... almost subliminally, and eventually, all these new experiences and things you take on board, weave themselves into something all great photographers have: A style. You can tell a William Eggleston from a Alec Soth, or a Tim Walker from a Mario Testino. However... Soth and Eggleston are primarily documentary photographers, and Walker and Testino are both fashion photographers. That's stage one right there.... getting an original stylistic output that you own. You can't just sit there in a darkened room and dream that up.., you get it from absorbing as much visual imagery as you can and re-appropriating it in a unique way.

Then there's the reasons for producing work. The "why" and "so what" factors. What images say, and why. If you can apply an original style to something engaging, interesting, and challenging then you're by default being creative.

That doesn't happen by working in a vacuum though. You can't develop a style by copying what you see on You Tube... you'll just end up copying what you see on You Tube. Instead, you expose yourself to.... well.. everything. All art.. all creative output. Photography, painting, music, film, poetry... everything.

Ah, that dreaded word, style. I have a rather difficult relationship with it, probably because of my architectural background and the echoes of the "Batttle of The Styles" (between Classicism and Gothicism) in the nineteenth century.

There's a widely prevalent view that a 'style' is something you gloss over the surface of a created work.

In architecture, it's dressing up a building with classical columns or a 'modern' glass wall; often with the perceived aim of 'fitting in', whatever that may mean. It separates the purpose, meaning, materials and methods of construction of a building from the visual form that results from those things.

In photography, we see questions every day on this and other forums asking how to reproduce the style of some photograph they've seen, often running the image through the mincing machine of Photoshop or Lightroom Actions and squeezing out some Dragan Effect or Colour-Popped sausages at the other end. That is the worst and meanest use of style; the Instagram filter approach that seeks only to make things 'fun' and 'cool'.

The more sophisticated end of that approach will take into account the lighting, composition and subject matter to ape someone like Joe Cornish or Ansel Adams.

We see it also in the design of the tools that we use - 'retro style' cameras that are intended to look like they sprung out of the 1950s; plastic parts coated with a thin film to look like they are made of metal.

The problem with this approach is that it decouples the end result from its context, the reality of how a picture was taken is somewhat undermined if a filter is applied to a digital image to make it look as if it was shot on C41 film and cross processed in E6 chemicals.

I am not a rigorously intellectual photographer, but I do avoid the use of such things because I feel it undermines the authenticity of the images I create - that rationale has played a small part in the development of my personal style of photography. I use Silver Efex Pro for black and white conversions, but I rarely use the grain emulation features of that software out of recognition that I am working with digital images, not film (I will embrace and use digital noise where it occurs, though, and some of my digital cameras certainly produce what I consider more pleasing noise than others).

So, arriving at your own style of photography should be something more organic and considered than merely copying the work of other photographers that you find attractive (or pushed toward by some bizarre marking scheme). It should be something that derives from you, your experience, your perspectives and the cultural context you work in and the tools you use: from that set of circumstances individual to you, a genuinely creative approach ought to emerge.

To somewhat pull this post back on topic for the thread, and which may partly account for much of what I have written above, I have short tale to tell...

At the beginning of my second year of my degree in Architecture we were set a short project to design a "pavilion to architecture" in the style of an architect of our choosing: one week studying their 'style' and second week to design the pavilion for crit. Fresh from a recent trip to Holland, I was keen to take on the early Modernist Dutch architect, Willem Dudok.

My tutor had other ideas, however, and overruled my choice - tasking me with studying William Lethaby, an architect and theorist of the Arts and Crafts movement and founding Principal of the Central School of Arts and Crafts in London - someone had to do Lethaby, he said.

Lethaby's writings on architecture and design emphasised 'good, honest building' with truth to materials and a co-operative vision of the construction process, with the craftsmen involved in the building participating in its design and decoration. Where he broke with others in the Arts and Crafts (like William Morris) was in accepting machine made things, since it was economically impossible for the modern world to be built with only hand-made things.

William Morris said:
Machinework should show quite frankly that it is the child of the machine; it is the pretence and subterfuge of most machine-made things which make them disgusting

There is an underlying theme in much of Lethaby's writings that things should be true to their time, their place and their means of production.

Anyhow, having had week studying Lethaby's writings and work, I arrived at the conclusion that for me to design a pavilion to architecture in the 'style' of Lethaby (as the brief demanded) would run contrary to the thought processes of the man I was supposed to be emulating.

In the end I did not turn in a design project, but instead submitted a several thousand word essay exploring why I could not meet the requirements of the brief I had been given.

I found out much later that I had caused something of a ruckus between several members of the teaching staff by doing this - there were quite a number who wanted to fail me for not submitting the required design, but they were ultimately overruled by the Professor of Design, Alan Lipman, since he judged I was one of the few people who had fully embraced the ideas I was supposed to be studying.

Alan was one of those people who challenged you to think about every aspect of what you were designing, from its social and political context down to how you would deal with the smells of people's farts in a room: he was sometimes very robust in this, but his challenges forced you to think clearly for yourself and create designs for which you could defend every choice you had made. To keep up, I found myself reading books on fields far removed from architecture such as philosophy, linguistics, mathematics and psychology and that reading allowed me to imagine things of which I had never conceived before.

That taught me how to create, and for that I am immensely grateful to him.
 
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I took my Deerhound shooting once. He was almost as bad as my Springer Spaniel is at chasing lures.

OK, 'selective breeding' is pushing it a bit but creativity, sports, music, some have it in their genes and others don't.
 
So, arriving at your own style of photography should be something more organic and considered than merely copying the work of other photographers that you find attractive (or pushed toward by some bizarre marking scheme). It should be something that derives from you, your experience, your perspectives and the cultural context you work in and the tools you use: from that set of circumstances individual to you, a genuinely creative approach ought to emerge.

I agree completely that it should be something that comes from you, and it should develop organically. Merely copying someone else doesn't give you style.. it gives you someone else's style. Exposing yourself to as many different possibilities as possible however, that's different. Then you know what's gone before you, you understand what's possible, and it gives you a wider context in which to formulate your ideas. To not look at the work of others puts you in a Plato's cave scenario of having such a limited, one directional view of photography that whatever style you develop will not be as rich or varied as it could be. There's nothing wrong with studying the work of others. Copying it.. yes.. I agree with you, but to study it is a different matter entirely.

There's another reason to study it too, and that's to simply master techniques in the early stages. Learning to de construct lighting by looking at the work of others is a massive aid in understanding lighting, how it works etc. Not just photography either... most photographers could learn a lot by studying Vermeer for example. That doesn't mean everything they produce for the rest of their life looks like a Vermeer painting :)


That taught me how to create, and for that I am immensely grateful to him.

In many ways there's a great deal of truth in what you say, but you still can't eschew the rest of the photographic world in the pursuit of something "pure" because A) There's probably no such thing, and B)..and far more likely, you could very easily just end up producing stuff you think is pure and magical, only to realise it's actually not that original or relevant at all. You need a yardstick basically... otherwise your back in Plato's cave.

I took my Deerhound shooting once. He was almost as bad as my Springer Spaniel is at chasing lures.

OK, 'selective breeding' is pushing it a bit but creativity, sports, music, some have it in their genes and others don't.


Ever wondered why most actors can sing and dance when they need to? Just accidental? No... because most actors have also had voice lessons and singing lessons. Anyone can be taught to sing. To sing beautifully however, you need a beautiful voice, and that IS something natural and unlearned. There are natural limits we all have with certain attributes, but it's not all or nothing. You make the mistake of thinking that GREATNESS is something genetic... which it is... probably, however we're not discussing whether you can teach someone to be great... but merely creative. That doesn't creative is all or nothing - that you're either totally creative, or utterly devoid of creativity. You can be taught to be more creative than you currently are. The alternative is pretty unthinkable really. It suggests that from the moment you're born, you will NEVER be certain things. That's clearly [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER]: A few hundred years ago, Stephen Hawking would have been quietly taken into the woods and left for the wolves. I think some people in here are dangerously close to writing people off because they find something harder than someone else does. Bad attitude if you ask me.
 
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In many ways there's a great deal of truth in what you say, but you still can't eschew the rest of the photographic world in the pursuit of something "pure" because A) There's probably no such thing, and B)..and far more likely, you could very easily just end up producing stuff you think is pure and magical, only to realise it's actually not that original or relevant at all. You need a yardstick basically... otherwise your back in Plato's cave.

Absolutely. I said you have to place your work in its own cultural context, and that requires that you understand what that context is, which you cannot do without studying what has gone before you and what is happening today. Insisting that you must create 'ex nihilo' would be a fool's game.
 
Absolutely. I said you have to place your work in its own cultural context, and that requires that you understand what that context is, which you cannot do without studying what has gone before you and what is happening today. Insisting that you must create 'ex nihilo' would be a fool's game.

Glad we agree on that then. As it's often questioned why a degree course insists on research and looking at a wide range of work.
 
I think it can be either or a combination of both. Most probably the latter. Folk that are naturally creative probably have an advantage over most of us.

There are masses of books on it. Read plenty and some is bound to rub off.

I generally agree with this. I'm going to use another example here; it's a bit like football, you've got to have some natural ability to be good at it. In my case I am decent at football, I had to work fairly hard to get to the stage I was but I did have some natural ability. Some of my friends didn't and despite trying they were never as good as myself or others.

For me I don't think I am naturally creative. I just know how to take a decent photo based on composition and other techniques that I've learnt from books and the Internet.
 
Ever wondered why most actors can sing and dance when they need to? Just accidental? No... because most actors have also had voice lessons and singing lessons. Anyone can be taught to sing. To sing beautifully however, you need a beautiful voice, and that IS something natural and unlearned. There are natural limits we all have with certain attributes, but it's not all or nothing. You make the mistake of thinking that GREATNESS is something genetic... which it is... probably, however we're not discussing whether you can teach someone to be great... but merely creative. That doesn't creative is all or nothing - that you're either totally creative, or utterly devoid of creativity. You can be taught to be more creative than you currently are. The alternative is pretty unthinkable really. It suggests that from the moment you're born, you will NEVER be certain things. That's clearly [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER]: A few hundred years ago, Stephen Hawking would have been quietly taken into the woods and left for the wolves. I think some people in here are dangerously close to writing people off because they find something harder than someone else does. Bad attitude if you ask me.
The classic illustration of this genetic multifactoriality* for undergraduates is that of a plant or tree that is genetically predisposed to grow taller than another individual plant or tree of the same species given the same conditions. However, environment obviously plays a role, and it's easy to picture a scenario where the genetically "better" organism fails to thrive due to lack of nurture and the less fit individual can outgrow it.
All complex traits and most simple ones are products of genetics ( usually combinations of genes, not just "one gene" ) and environment. Genetics moved on from "nature vs nurture" decades ago, if, indeed, that was a dichotomy that was ever taken seriously in the first place. Nature AND nurture both need respect.

It may not be ridiculous to say a creative genotype exists (I don't know if it does, but the idea isn't implausible), but for that to translate into a creative phenotype would likely require a nurturing environment.

However, I don't think this argument is helpful:

"You can be taught to be more creative than you currently are. The alternative is pretty unthinkable really. It suggests that from the moment you're born, you will NEVER be certain things."

That there are unpleasant consequences to a hypothesis is entirely irrelevant to the question of whether the hypothesis is likely to be true. It could be true that your intellectual capabilities are overwhelmingly determined by genetics such as to make education more or less redundant for some (I don't think it's likely, but it's not absurd in principle) and the fact that this is unpleasant to consider doesn't matter.

*genetic jargon for the orchestra of genes and environment
 
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Really - why do so many course put the emphasis on imitation and analysing other works then ? , It often seems to me that much of education in the uk today is about teaching people to all be the same and to aspire to the mediocre - a bit like the 'school for animals' parable - too often people are marked down for truly being creative if they don't agree with the rather narrow definition of what is "right" according to the curriculum/mark scheme/ belief of their lecturer

I don't doubt you can improve some peoples skills in being creative, but they've got to want to learn, they've got to be able to have the ideas etc and that both requires a certain amount of intelligence and the ability to think for themselves instead of wanting to be spoonfed everything- and those comes from inside

I just want to leave this here.

It's a short interview by Chris Nolan who directed Batman - The Dark Knight about how he took inspiration from the works of Francis Bacon when deciding on the look of The Joker.

It shows how looking at other peoples work and then applying it to your own situations and concepts is a way to create something that is stylistically yours.

http://www.tate.org.uk/context-comment/video/film-meets-art-chris-nolan-inspired-francis-bacon
 
I do believe certain people are born with more creativity and talent than others. I'm 33 years old, I've been playing bass for 17 years and yet there are 14 year old kids out there who after 6 months of playing make me look like a total n00b, that's because they're naturally better at this stuff than I am. It's also why there are 14 year old kids taking more interesting and meaningful photos after a few months of shooting with an iPhone than I can with my 5D2 after 10 years of experience. The thing is I can learn from those people, they give me ideas of things to try, they broaden my creative mind - that's creativity being taught. Every idea you pick up from someone else's image that you then go out and try develop into your own images is creativity being taught. Teaching isn't exclusive to classrooms and lecture halls, it happens all around us all the time, we just have to be open to it to realise that.

@MWHCVT, you vehemently say creativity can't be taught and yet it's fair to say you consider wire wool spinning to be creative. I'm not going to get into personal opinions on whether it is or isn't creative; that isn't important here, but were you the first photographer on the planet to start burning wire wool and doing long exposures with it or did you get the idea from someone else and start incorporating it into your own work? Unless wire wool spinning was entirely your idea you may like to reconsider your stance on this as it seems the vast bulk of your work is a development of other people's ideas, therefore, to some degree, you've learned to be creative.
 
I do believe certain people are born with more creativity and talent than others. I'm 33 years old, I've been playing bass for 17 years and yet there are 14 year old kids out there who after 6 months of playing make me look like a total n00b, that's because they're naturally better at this stuff than I am. It's also why there are 14 year old kids taking more interesting and meaningful photos after a few months of shooting with an iPhone than I can with my 5D2 after 10 years of experience. The thing is I can learn from those people, they give me ideas of things to try, they broaden my creative mind - that's creativity being taught. Every idea you pick up from someone else's image that you then go out and try develop into your own images is creativity being taught. Teaching isn't exclusive to classrooms and lecture halls, it happens all around us all the time, we just have to be open to it to realise that.

@MWHCVT, you vehemently say creativity can't be taught and yet it's fair to say you consider wire wool spinning to be creative. I'm not going to get into personal opinions on whether it is or isn't creative; that isn't important here, but were you the first photographer on the planet to start burning wire wool and doing long exposures with it or did you get the idea from someone else and start incorporating it into your own work? Unless wire wool spinning was entirely your idea you may like to reconsider your stance on this as it seems the vast bulk of your work is a development of other people's ideas, therefore, to some degree, you've learned to be creative.

No wirewool burning was not my invention, I'd hardly say I have vehemently stated it cannot be taught all I've done is state my opinion the creativity cannot specifically be taught, teaching techniques, skills etc of course can be taught but this will not inherently make you creative you need IMO to take this knowledge and develop it in your own interpretation to become truly creative...
 
you need IMO to take this knowledge and develop it in your own interpretation to become truly creative...

Yes, but learning a new technique naturally leads to you being more creative. You probably wouldn't have done wire wool spinning had you not seen someone else do it, now you do it in your own way. Separating teaching a technique from teaching creativity doesn't make any sense because in essence they're really the same thing, or at least the outcome is the same.
 
It's a short interview by Chris Nolan who directed Batman - The Dark Knight about how he took inspiration from the works of Francis Bacon when deciding on the look of The Joker.

Bacon used photographs extensively as 'inspiration'.:)
 
To extend the thoughts...
What is the difference between originality and creativity.
 
I, however, am like Lowry....all matchstick cats and dogs, but lots more talentless in that field as far as drawing and painting are concerned....I.e, crap.

Lowry was also a very accomplished academic artist. The style he used to present his ideas was his own considered choice. It was not forced on him by lack of skill, talent or technique.
 
Yes, but learning a new technique naturally leads to you being more creative. You probably wouldn't have done wire wool spinning had you not seen someone else do it, now you do it in your own way. Separating teaching a technique from teaching creativity doesn't make any sense because in essence they're really the same thing, or at least the outcome is the same.

Technique is a tool of creativity... it is never the instigator.
techniques and skills are chosen, after the idea is spawned, to help bring it to fruition.
Often new techniques are invented because none of the existing ones fit the concept.

However I rarely find that any creative work is satisfactory with out the ability to use the necessary skills to to accomplish it.
 
To extend that even further, who cares as long as whatever you're doing feels right and natural to you?

"A who cares answer" is rarely conducive to anything constructive.
 
"A who cares answer" is rarely conducive to anything constructive.

Rather than dismiss it, answer it. We all know there's hardly anything truly original around these days, most things are a combination of various influences from various different places and people so why does it matter? If you create something that feels right to you and says what you want it to say I don't see why this whole argument about 'originality' is important.

A songwriter writes a song, it has the same chords and perhaps even the same chord progressions as many thousands of other songs but he's used them in a way that's personal to him and the song expresses what he wants to say. Is he wrong? Is his work less valuable for using the same chords as other songs?
 
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Technique is a tool of creativity... it is never the instigator.
techniques and skills are chosen, after the idea is spawned, to help bring it to fruition.

If you think in a way where you know in advance what you want the outcome to be that is the case. Alternatively you can start with a technique and see where it leads without having a set goal. Mastery of craft and technique can be stifling to idea generation because you think you know the limitations of the methods. Someone who doesn't understand the accepted ways to use a technique might find new ways to apply it.
 
Technique is a tool of creativity... it is never the instigator.

I completely 100% disagree. There have been various techniques I've heard about which I've then gone out and experimented with, who says a technique can't inspire you to experiment and then you learn from those experiments? Why do things always have to happen in a predetermined way? That way of thinking is limiting your creativity, not expanding it.
 
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I completely 100% disagree. There have been various techniques I've heard about which I've then gone out and experimented with, who says a technique can't inspire you to experiment and then you learn from those experiments? Why do things always have to happen in a predetermined way? That way of thinking is limiting your creativity, not expanding it.

I can see that you disagree.
Experimentation with techniques is not creativity.
However it may result in a happy happenchance, and may even result in something never done before.
and of course you can learn from experimentation with technique.

However Creativity is always a thought process.
It is not chance or accident.
It is not synonymous with making or crafting.

If you recognise a beautiful scene and photograph it... is that being creative or copying.
It might be worthwhile and of value but it is not a creative act.
You have only made permanent some aspects of what already existed.
 
However Creativity is always a thought process.
It is not chance or accident.

Using chance can be a deliberately chosen strategy in idea generation. It has a long established place in the arts. To dismiss it as accident is to misunderstand what chance is in this context.
 
Using chance can be a deliberately chosen strategy in idea generation. It has a long established place in the arts. To dismiss it as accident is to misunderstand what chance is in this context.

Chance is not creativity, though it can be a tool.
 
Creativity is a very loaded word (why I prefer to avoid using it if I can) - I think that differing interpretations of it are what causes some of the friction in this thread.

Wise words. Interpretations are fine; we all have interpretations of things but I get a bit irked when people sit on forums dictating what is and isn't creative like it's some kind of unequivocal rule. It isn't!
 
It may not be ridiculous to say a creative genotype exists (I don't know if it does, but the idea isn't implausible), but for that to translate into a creative phenotype would likely require a nurturing environment.

I'm sure it does... but I don't think it will as cut and dried as having the gene equals creative, vs, not having it means you're absolutely not. I can't imagine that ever happening. Too many other things rely on creative thinking. Creativity isn't something only artists need. Assuming there is no other diagnosed mental impairment, I can't imagine why a normal, intelligent person should be incapable of creative thoughts. I've yet to meet anyone utterly incapable of creative thought, not have I met anyone who could not be nurtured to be more creative than they already are. I'm sure in my line of work I would have come across such a person by now... unless they are just very rare.

However, I don't think this argument is helpful:

"You can be taught to be more creative than you currently are. The alternative is pretty unthinkable really. It suggests that from the moment you're born, you will NEVER be certain things."

That there are unpleasant consequences to a hypothesis is entirely irrelevant to the question of whether the hypothesis is likely to be true. It could be true that your intellectual capabilities are overwhelmingly determined by genetics such as to make education more or less redundant for some (I don't think it's likely, but it's not absurd in principle) and the fact that this is unpleasant to consider doesn't matter.

"Unthinkable" wasn't through abhorrence or any moral objection.. I meant it's just unthinkable meaning implausible. I know some peopel are born unable to wailk for example, but this whole thread is predicated on the assumption that there is no diagnosed impairment that would ordinarily impede cognitive processes... a "normal" person for want of a better way of putting it. If that is the case, I can't imagine why someone would be utterly unable to have creative thoughts. Creative thoughts are just complex thoughts, and even people who claim to be non-creative are capable of very high order processes. While I accept that there will be differences in ability, to be utterly devoid of ANY ability to think creatively would actually be crippling. From creative financing, to creative ways to repair a bicycle with only a screwdriver and some sticky tape.... many people who claim to be non-creative are very adept at such things: Finding creative solutions to problems. The same person may have no "artistic" (I hate that word) ability whatsoever though. Are we not in danger of thinking that creativity only pertains to the arts?

My assertion is that surely... by now... I'd have encountered these utterly un-creative people. So far I haven't. As I said earlier... if they exist, they're clearly very rare. If that is the case... then I don't think such people should be used as any benchmark to draw meaningful conclusion from in this debate.
 
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So this thread has taught me the answer depends on the definition of creativity.
At first I was definite : Creativity cannot be taught : each individual has a certain level of creativity and produces art at around that level of creativity. They may learn and use new techniques which others may term creative or not, but their own inspirational originalsim (my creativity) will not vary except through time and their own untaught internal development.
Now I've read a lot more different interpretations of creativity ... the answer is as clear as mud : as clear as the definitions, as clear as the original question.
 
What I've learned from this thread is mostly that people cannot be shaken from their current belief system.

Even down to twisting the meaning of 'creativity' to suit their own agenda.

I came in thinking it was obvious, some people are born more talented than others, but creativity is like anything else in life, we can maximise our potential by exercising it.
 
I came in thinking it was obvious, some people are born more talented than others, but creativity is like anything else in life, we can maximise our potential by exercising it.

That sounds fair, Phil
 
Hi
I put it in the same mould as a footballer. i.e. you can be born with a natural talent or you can have average skills but have to practise, practise, practise to get to a similar level.
Looking at other peoples' work can help tremendously and be very inspiring, imitation (to a level) is the best form of flattery.
JohnyT
 
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I do believe certain people are born with more creativity and talent than others. I'm 33 years old, I've been playing bass for 17 years and yet there are 14 year old kids out there who after 6 months of playing make me look like a total n00b, that's because they're naturally better at this stuff than I am.

True. But you can still play bass. :) I can't play a note. I bet I could learn though. I'd probably be worse than you... but I can learn. We'd all achieve a level set by our abilities... but we could all learn to play bass if we were determined enough. Creativity is the same, surely. Some people are just naturally adept, and seem to need no direction, or nurturing... some have to work very, very hard, and only make small incremental gains... but they are still learning and developing nonetheless. Saying you can't develop someone's creativity is like saying you can't teach someone to play bass. You can though. They may be crap, but they'll be better than when they started.


To extend the thoughts...
What is the difference between originality and creativity.


Awkward to define... that's what :)

Usually, being original is very close to being creative, as you're doing something no one has done before. However, it depends what your intentions are. I could sit here and think of something to do that was original. It wouldn't necessarily follow that it was creative.. all I was wanted to achieve was something original.. the end result may still be derivative. I could decide to paint landscapes using only a palette derived from my own faeces, blood and semen... unless someone knows any better, I'm not aware of that being done before. Even if it has... let's imagine it hasn't been. The actual work, and the reasons for doing it aren't necessarily creative. All I wanted to achieve was originality, but only the ACT was original. The resulting landscape may well still be a pile of uncreative....well.... sh1t :) So yes, you can be original in many respects... and the inventiveness in how you do it could be creative, but the artwork that results may not be.

Take wire wook spinning. Whoever first thought of trying to that was creative and original, but if they didn't know what to do with it, the resulting image may not be. If all they did was just stand there spinning around their heads in an otherwise boring image, then the only creative and original aspect was the technique. So.. the two are closely entwined, but one doesn't necessarily lead the other. I'd suggest those who can be original usually are more creative though, as true originality requires imagination, and that is one ingredient you'll often find in any creative recipe.



Chance is not creativity, though it can be a tool.

No.. but using it can be. It can be a creative tool, yes. It can facilitate creativity. Not many people will just trust the random hand of fate to direct them.. and then commit fully to whatever happens next. Most want to stay nestled in their comfort zones and narrow idea spaces.

Wise words. Interpretations are fine; we all have interpretations of things but I get a bit irked when people sit on forums dictating what is and isn't creative like it's some kind of unequivocal rule. It isn't!

But the same can be said about those that think they're interpreting something... but are actually just copying it. Any word, phrase, term... can be misunderstood or abused. In fairness, I think most people in here have been very careful and mindful to not denigrate any particular kind of work where possible. That cuts both ways too. Certain types of work that are heavily technique oriented have been talked about, but I think they've been used in context and in ways that are valid.
 
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...accidental double post....

Move along... mind the gap
 
True. But you can still play bass. :) I can't play a note. I bet I could learn though. I'd probably be worse than you... but I can learn. We'd all achieve a level set by our abilities... but we could all learn to play bass if we were determined enough. Creativity is the same, surely. Some people are just naturally adept, and seem to need no direction, or nurturing... some have to work very, very hard, and only make small incremental gains... but they are still learning and developing nonetheless. Saying you can't develop someone's creativity is like saying you can't teach someone to play bass. You can though. They may be crap, but they'll be better than when they started.

Maybe we're doing that thing of saying the same thing in different ways but that's exactly my point. :) I used the example of some seriously talented 14 year old kid as being the one more naturally adept than me and me being the one learning at a slower pace but nonetheless still learning. I think I have a decent amount of ability to understand certain things naturally in music but I'm very clear in knowing there are people out there infinitely more gifted than me. I can learn what they learn, not as naturally or as easily but I can learn it. I see photography as being exactly the same, some people are more natural photographers than others but with time and effort an incredible amount can be learned.
 
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