Copyright? Should I say no?

B

BrokenLogic

Suspended / Banned
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Edit My Images
No
About 4 months ago a good friend told me one of her friends was getting married, once here and then also in Europe with her other family too, so she wanted a wedding photographer for the registry office here. My friend was the first choice, although due to lack of confidence in herself and other personal reasons said no and suggested me instead. Then her friend decided that she just wanted guests to take pictures and would have a proper photographer at her other wedding so didn't need me.

Then two weeks before the wedding my good friend rung me up when she was at the airport to go on holiday and said her friend had just called her and said she'd changed her mind and wanted a photographer to take some pictures now and if she could get my details to sort something out.

I got a phone call from the bride to be and we arranged a price (far too low to be honest but never mind). We were supposed to meet up the week before the wedding but I couldn't make it due to two shoots I already had booked so we were going to meet up the day before the wedding so we knew what each other looked like and we could discuss things and I had made a little form/invoice for them to sign. In the end they couldn't make it so I had to walk into the wedding blind as to what they wanted.

Anyway, the day of the wedding came and I arrived at the registry office on time and eventually met with the bride and groom. They hadn't made it clear what I should shoot so I just used it as a practise session. By the end of the wedding I had quite a few photos and was looking forward to editing them (as far as I was aware they just wanted a cd of pictures). Then when it came to paying me I got my money and asked if they were definately sure they didn't want me to make them an album. The reply I got was that my close friend would be editing them and making an album for them so I just needed to give a cd to her too. I'm sorry, what? Someone else is editing my pictures? Well I was a bit taken aback for several reasons. I explained that part of my "package" was to do editing and album but they stood firm that she was going to edit them (she created an album for a mutual friend before which the bride had seen and wanted one too).

Well I walked away very disheartened and annoyed. One, why had my friend agreed to do this when she knew they were my photos? She understands copyright. Two, was she getting paid for it? (yes, she is. She is now making money off of my photos), Three, should i say no? What would happen if I did say no? CAN i say no? My father picked me up from the wedding and through a long talk suggested this time i just give over the photos and be done with it. As long as they make no reference to me anywhere in the album to influence my reputation by the edits. This time I had to learn from it, but I feel very protective over my photos. They aren't brilliant but they are mine and i don't want someone critically scanning through them deciding on their worth to her even though she is my friend. I just really don't know what to do. I've spoken to my close friends boyfriend who is my work collegue and said how much I didn't like the idea and his response was only that the editing had been arranged from before i was asked to take pictures and originally my close friend was going to make an album out of the guests pictures. That makes it okay does it?

What can I do? If I edit them they won't be half as good as my friends and I wouldn't be paid for it, I know that. But at the same time i don't want her making money out of my pictures and editing all the work that I did.

:(
 
as your friends with the person who wants to edit them cant you go through them together and work from there, maybe a compromise to kept everybody happy and you still get paid:)
 
i would say no. your photos are your photos, or make some demands, such as you edit with your friend, but they dont get a copy of the cd, something like that..
 
Having someone else edit your photos is common in wedding and commercial photography. I'm sure Duncan (weddinghack) has stated he farms out the processing work, forgive me if I'm mistaken Duncan.

Did you have a contract that stated usage rights for the photos?
If yes, does it allow them to be edited?
If not, I'd walk away and learn a hard lesson.

If I read it right, your say your friend would do a better job editing them you - don't you think that for the b&g that's the best outcome?
 
Tbh, if you were ok with giving a cd of your pics away, you've pretty much agreed with them doing what they want with the images anyway. Once they have the digital file, they could crop, clone and adjust to their hearts content, its just you now know they will be editting and printing them and putting them in an album (or at least your friend is). If you don't want anyone to mess with your pics, you sell them as prints only
 
Sadly BrokenLogic it sounds like a hrd lesson learned. You really should have produced a tight agreement specifying copyright and restrictions on printing and/or editing as part of your pre-wedding day document.
Maybe you could wor kwith your friend who will be editing them and get some for your portfolio - you did say her editing would be better than yours and it would seem lots of others (including some Pro's) farm out the PP. Hope it all turns out well and no tears!
 
well yes they could have done that, but they were going to be reduced in quality and size so they could not have been printed out quite so easily.

px18 yes there was a contract and due to my own stupidity i had to email it over to them to send back after the wedding. yes, maybe my friend can do a better job but in the first place i was only told they wanted "a few nice pictures of the registry office" and i know she is making more money off of the pictures than i did. i just think that in the first place should there not have been a joint understanding and agreement on what would be done with the photos by all three of us? should they not have told me in the first place? seeing as my friend knows i want to make photography my business is it too much to expect that she might realise i wouldnt be happy?

i dont know a majoy amount about copyright but surely even if there is no contract, and technically i didn't even say yes to it yet, i still have the right to say no?
 
haggis said:
Sadly BrokenLogic it sounds like a hrd lesson learned. You really should have produced a tight agreement specifying copyright and restrictions on printing and/or editing as part of your pre-wedding day document.
Maybe you could wor kwith your friend who will be editing them and get some for your portfolio - you did say her editing would be better than yours and it would seem lots of others (including some Pro's) farm out the PP. Hope it all turns out well and no tears!
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her editing style is lots of brushes and photoshop manipulation, collages and borders. my agreement says no editing etc etc and i am still yet to recieve it back from them, if they had made the meeting the day before the wedding then i'd have had it signed in front of me now.

i would work with my friend but i think it might cause more problems. i wouldnt be able to work during the week with her because i would be working opposite shifts most of the time to her and she doesnt allow herself to do any type of work on a saturday including editing which only leaves sunday, a day i usually work, if i don't work it then it means having to come over every sunday till it is done and i'm sure she'd find that intrusive.
 
Sounds like the level of editing your friend might do would be a bit excessive for most wedding photos.
I still think you should try to come to some agreement with your friend as to the extent of edit she does so it doesn't detract from the look and feel you aimed for in the first place.
You do always have the right to say "NO" as the copyright clearly lies with you
 
Yeah, I just think out of everything I'm mainly just so disappointed, we all here take pictures because we love cameras and photographs but the fact is she said no to taking the photographs yet she still gets paid to do half of my job just seems not right to me, the whole process is a passion and giving someone else half of it just feels wrong to me. Especially when the editing would not be something that represents my work.
 
You have a choice to make.

Let the editing to go ahead and ask that your name is not associated with it (if you're not happy with the results). It's a lesson for the future, if the contract isn't signed don't do the job.

or

Refuse to hand over the images and return the money.

Whichever you choose try exit as smoothly as you can because the outcome will have an effect on your reputation in the future. If you refuse to supply the images you won't be there to tell your side of things when the couple are telling people what a nightmare the photographer was.

Harsh as it may be, the bottom line is you made a mistake and now you have to deal with the fall out but you'll live to fight another day :thumbs:
 
You own the copyright - no question about this. They failed to turn up at the meeting the day before. Failings in the making of the contract is theirs (but is a lesson for all).

I know what I'd do. Dump a chunky copyright notice across the centre of each image on the CD - and hand them your price list for prints.
 
2blue4u said:
I know what I'd do. Dump a chunky copyright notice across the centre of each image on the CD - and hand them your price list for prints.
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I had that thought too:lol: but the read only suggestion sounds better, im not as deep into photography as alot of the peeps on here but i wouldnt be happy with someone else editing my pics, i n a way they wouldnt be yours.
 
pxl8 said:
Having someone else edit your photos is common in wedding and commercial photography. I'm sure Duncan (weddinghack) has stated he farms out the processing work, forgive me if I'm mistaken Duncan.
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Yes, your mistaken, and forgiven ! I do all the processing myself
 
1. You say no, refuse the images and refund - You get negative feedback from the clients, your reputation is lowered. You get to keep your images, un-edited, and no one is allowed to profit from your hard work.

2. You say yes, supply the images and take the money (asking that your name be mentioned as, eg. "Photos by Broken Logic, Editing by Broken Logic's friend") - your friend profits from your photos, walk away feeling disheartened, you live to fight another day, and you get good feedback from the clients and a reputation boost.
 
let them have the shots, let your mate produce the foul sounding album that they want, take your money and move onto the next day a little wiser AND a little richer.

Wiser and richer really isn't such a bad way to be coming out of making a mistake, is it??? ;)

This is pretty unusual in the wedding/portrait world but more than common place in commercial photography. I have to hand over RAW files all the time and most of the processing work that happens after that, I hate. It still jars against my nature to work this way but it's this way, or no way in many cases and I've found that artistic integrity holds no sway with the mortgage company. :lol:
 
Personally, it wouldn't bother me a jot. If you've been paid to take the photos thats what you've done.

If someone else wants to ruin the shots, or more likely improve them beyond your own talents then why not - surely you'd like the B&G to be really happy with the final outcome? I don't think copyright comes into it much here really - if you were going to hand the couple a CD anyway I don't see what the problem is.

Refusing to hand over the images now seems, to me, like being a little childish - personally I think you need to respect the wishes of the client.
 
I've already given you my advice, so all I shall say here is 'unleash the hoard of soapy weasels!'.
 
apkent said:
Personally, it wouldn't bother me a jot. If you've been paid to take the photos thats what you've done.

If someone else wants to ruin the shots, or more likely improve them beyond your own talents then why not - surely you'd like the B&G to be really happy with the final outcome? I don't think copyright comes into it much here really - if you were going to hand the couple a CD anyway I don't see what the problem is.

Refusing to hand over the images now seems, to me, like being a little childish - personally I think you need to respect the wishes of the client.
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:agree:

I don't think there is anything really to gain here from refusing. Take the money and move on with your reputation intact and a lesson learned.
 
was there any discussion on image size on the cd? perhaps supply in low enough quality so that they cant be printed very big with a copyright symbol at the bottom, and a note saying your company name has to stay on the images. either that or just supply your friend with the raws and do no processing at all.

i would probably speak to your friend directly and see what comes of it, but as has been said, prob best to hand over and walkaway with the chance of recomendations rather than a bad mark.
 
How much do you value the friendship?

You yourself have said she will make a better job than you can, let her do it. It is done anyway, someone else handles the editing, so it's not a ground breaking situation.

Swallow your pride, save yourself a lot of hassle, and quietly let her do it.

Check the results and learn from her technique.

If your that concerned, in the future make your agreements a lot clearer.
 
I agree with what everyone else is saying about letting them have the photos and learning from the experience/moving on. However, it does seem that your friend and the client have set you up for a fall IMO. Only you can tell if that is the case as we only know what you have said but I would be wary in the future if it was me.
 
I see it like this.

You were hired to photograph. You photographed. Give them the pictures. Get paid.

That's it.

What they do with their pictures is their business so long as it's not for commercial benefit. Only then do I see a problem because there was no agreement to use them for such purposes.

The only reason you're so frustrated now is that you know they want something more done to their pictures and they're hiring another person to do it. Would you have been so hyped up about giving them their photos had you not known? What if they wanted to crop or edit the pictures themselves? Makes a difference?

Don't be an arse, give them their pictures in good quality on a DVD so they can actually use them.

The only thing that's kinda wrong here is your friend could be breaking a 'tog's code' of sorts. Your friend should have spoken with you before agreeing on editing your pictures and that's the only lesson and you should make it clear to her that's not very cool.
 
I guess in reality it will be your friend who breaches the copyright by unauthorised editing of the images!
You really need to decide how much the friendship is worth, then decide if you want to take it any further.
 
i'd take the money, give them the dvd, and put it down to experience. i'd also be having some words with the friend about what is and what is not on........
 
I think in this case I would be tempted to say that your/their friend can edit the images but you have final say in any photos used for the album, and the photos can only be used for the album and nothing else any reprints come through you.

That way your photos are used, your friend gets to edit them, you get overall vito on any crap / over the top images, the clients get their album.

credit in album goes something like

Photographs by *you*, additional editing by *friend*, copyright *you*.

I wouldnt be happy but its a good compromise on this occasion.
 
Take it as a lesson learned and remember in future, no signed contract, no photos.

Educate your friend on the meaning of thieving, lying and manipulating. Dump your friend - because she has proved she is not a friend but a user.

However - you might just want to consider how important the B&G are in your life and whether or not they have a large sphere of influence over your prospective customers before handing over full res unedited pics.
 
I would personally consider this a lesson learned. Give them the pictures and let your 'friend' edit them. Rushed situations are generally not the best situations. The way these people sound I doubt they'd even offer feedback on you to anyone but why risk the damage to your reputation if they did? Also, the fact that your friend is making more then you on this situation isn't entirely her doing. The price always starts in your court, you just have experience for next time.
 
It is the whole picture, pardon the pun, that you have to look at. That one finished album could be seen by a potential 20 new clients, if B&G have had a sour experience with you that will filter down as they show the album around. And from that the damage is done and will take some doing to rectify for you to regain lost business and a slur on your name.
If it were me I would just bite the bullet, hand over the images without a fuss and move on.
Also don't forget that it is only one album of images that will get dragged out every now and then, it's not a huge billboard advert in Times Square with your name falsely represented on it.
As for the close friend, well they would have known long before the day that they were doing the album, so they have been underhand too and obviously not that a close friend otherwise they would have told you.
I do place some of the blame for the lack of information about the big the day on yourself, leaving it till the week before the wedding to discuss the day is very late as things can and often go wrong and other jobs crop up as you well know, had you sent out a paper form when you took the initial booking requesting as much info as possible and then set the meeting a month before the day maybe none of this would have happened.
I am currently sat here looking at two confirmed bookings for May 2009 where I have all the info regarding the day already. Both events have meetings booked in for late Feb and April. All that I am waiting for now is the deposit cheques to clear.

Use the experience as a learning curve, learn from the mistakes and move on.
 
cableliquid said:
what i'd do is burn a cd thats read only so they cant edit the photos or anything that way anything they want doing has to be done through you. stand your ground!!!
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Whats to stop them copying the files to their hard drive where they can edit them easily?
 
Grockle said:
Take it as a lesson learned and remember in future, no signed contract, no photos.

Educate your friend on the meaning of thieving, lying and manipulating. Dump your friend - because she has proved she is not a friend but a user.

However - you might just want to consider how important the B&G are in your life and whether or not they have a large sphere of influence over your prospective customers before handing over full res unedited pics.
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:clap:
Never do a paid job without a contract.
 
I would say hand over the photos, take the cash, and call it a learning experience.

I would speak to this "friend" though - as others have said they seem to have broken an uspoken togs code and this should really be bought to their attention. I think you would do far more damage to your reputation by with-holding the images and really, do you want to be a photographer who doesn't allow his clients to enjoy the photos you have taken for them?
 
Oh, BL what a horrible mess you appear to have been dumped into!
Never mind, sort it out and move on somewhat wiser.

Weddings are fraught times for everyone.

Seems to me your friend was asked to shoot and edit but due to commitments suggested you as a sort of locum. You shoot, your friend edits - both get paid and B&G get what they want. Problem being nobody made this clear to you.

Would you have agreed to this if it had been made clear? What is the problem with this? Are you worried your friend will think you're a rubbish tog? Presumably not or you wouldn't/shouldn't have agreed to do the shoot.

You are annoyed your friend is going to make more money than you? Can you do the edits the B&G want? If so, you do it. If not, let your friend.

You didn't get the full picture before doing the job and you didn't get the neccessary agreements in writing - that was your mistake but should you hold this against the B&G who want a specific product?

What concerns me more is the expectation of the couple - they want some arty edits by your friend and they want your images on cd so they can print multiple copies without reference or further payment to you. Basically they've got a really cheap deal!
With more and more advanced amateurs (for want of a better phrase) doing jobs like this for pin money clients are expecting to pay very little - you say you provided your services cheaply and you won't get any more cash for prints. But you didn't specify all this beforehand, so...

Markk said:
I see it like this.

You were hired to photograph. You photographed. Give them the pictures. Get paid.

That's it.

What they do with their pictures is their business so long as it's not for commercial benefit. Only then do I see a problem because there was no agreement to use them for such purposes.

The only reason you're so frustrated now is that you know they want something more done to their pictures and they're hiring another person to do it. Would you have been so hyped up about giving them their photos had you not known? What if they wanted to crop or edit the pictures themselves? Makes a difference?

Don't be an arse, give them their pictures in good quality on a DVD so they can actually use them.

The only thing that's kinda wrong here is your friend could be breaking a 'tog's code' of sorts. Your friend should have spoken with you before agreeing on editing your pictures and that's the only lesson and you should make it clear to her that's not very cool.
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What you can do now is specify that copyright remains with you and they can't use the images for other than personal albums.

Talk to your friend and agree what he/she is going to do. If your friend is going to reserve the right to charge for additional prints ask for a consideration (x%). You can't insist but a true friend should be amenable.

Learn and walk away. Next time get everything agreed beforehand and charge appropriately.
 
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