Copyright question

Nitram

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Martin
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Here's one for the copyright experts, which I think I already know the answer to but would really like some confirmation.
We shoot MTB races and sell the photos on a 3rd party website.
We have recently shot a race on Forestry Commission land and the organizers have asked us not to sell our pics directly to the competitors as they had an official photographer there, which I have no problem with. However they then got heavy handed and stated that they have copyright of the event and have ordered us not to put any of our pics on social media.
Your thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks
 
You cannot have copyright of an event like that, only of an artistic work.

You own the copyright of the photographs you took.

The Forestry Commission have the right to restrict photography on the land but it's a bit late for that as they have already been taken.

I assume the Forestry Commission is not the organiser.

I would post them - and probably sell them if anyone wanted to buy.


Steve.
 
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As above, you hold the copyright.

However, copyright is irrelevant. The organisers are entitled to make your entry and photography pursuant to their conditions. However these conditions need to be notified clearly before the event and it's unusual for them to stretch to disallowing use on social media.

It sounds like the official photographer is getting a bit twitchy and the organisers have gone off half cocked to me.
 
Thanks Phil, but can the organisers make their own conditions on FC land (MTB trail center) ?
 
Thanks Phil, but can the organisers make their own conditions on FC land (MTB trail center) ?

IIRC FC land is technically private property. If it is private property, then yes they can make their own conditions.
 
IIRC FC land is technically private property. If it is private property, then yes they can make their own conditions.

If they were also the organisers they can. If the public has access i.e via footpaths and there was no admission charge, they cannot.


Steve.
 
No charge to get in, and free public access.
 
If they were also the organisers they can. If the public has access i.e via footpaths and there was no admission charge, they cannot.

Steve.

Yes they can... There is free access to the South Bank yet it is private property and the owners have T&C for photography...
 
I would say that in answer to the OP's question, unless they were informed before the event, they cannot introduce after the fact terms and conditions like this. Go ahead and do what you like.


Steve.
 
Thanks Phil, but can the organisers make their own conditions on FC land (MTB trail center) ?
Their event - their rules. The landowner is irrelevant.
 
However, it would be unreasonable for an event organiser to insist that no pictures are placed on social media sites. And insisting on it at the end of the event is no good. All terms and conditions need to be known on entry.

Also, terms and conditions are not law, they are just what the organisers would like you to do.


Steve.
 
Two choices really:

1) Do what you like, possibly face protracted legal battle, definitely face being barred from future events regardless of the outcome.

2) Do what they have asked you to do.
 
Two choices really:

1) Do what you like, possibly face protracted legal battle, definitely face being barred from future events regardless of the outcome.

2) Do what they have asked you to do.

Sounds to me like giving in to bullying, no?
 
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When you are a guest at someone else's party, you either play by their rules or go home and not get invited back.

Its a private function, you have no right to be there and if you cross them, they will just ban you.

Don't feel unique, it happens at all sorts of sporting events all the time.
 
The mountain biking world is pretty small. I'd be wary of whom I annoyed if I wanted to continue to be successful in it.
 
Here's one for the copyright experts, which I think I already know the answer to but would really like some confirmation.
We shoot MTB races and sell the photos on a 3rd party website.
We have recently shot a race on Forestry Commission land and the organizers have asked us not to sell our pics directly to the competitors as they had an official photographer there, which I have no problem with. However they then got heavy handed and stated that they have copyright of the event and have ordered us not to put any of our pics on social media.
Your thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks


As far as I am aware Forest Enterprise is a privatised land and "woodland" owner and the Forestry Commission is still a Quango charged with managing woodland in Britain generally. So it might be worthwhile checking the details of who actually owned the land.

The organisers of the event cannot possibly have copyright on your photo's but they may have specified in advance under what conditions any photography may be done. (eg no commercial use) But if they didn't state that in advance I don't see how they can now suddenly impose those conditions.
 
Its a private function, you have no right to be there

It appears to be on land which has free public access.

Also (I could be wrong here) the "don't post on social media sites" order was given at the end of the event. I suspect that many other spectators would have taken pictures and posted them on various pages without any official order not to.


Steve.
 
From the Forestrt Commissions website:

Access for All
The public forest estate is the most extensive resource for outdoor recreation and healthy exercise in the country with an estimated 40 million visits a year.
  • We have a long history of welcoming public access.
  • We have dedicated in perpetuity the right of access on foot to 90% of the freehold area under the Countryside and Rights of Way Act (CROW).
  • We allow free access on horseback or by bicycle to the majority of the estate. Around 10 million visits a year are made by mountain bikers.
  • There is a wide range of activities and facilities for all interests and abilities.

Red herring or not, the organisers cannot impose new terms and conditions of entry after an event has ocurred.


Steve.
 
Red herring or not, the organisers cannot impose new terms and conditions of entry after an event has ocurred.

Sure they can.

Whether and how they can enforce those t&cs is an entirely different matter.

Even if you were breaking an actual criminal law in selling the pictures (and of course you're not) in the real world, it's remarkably unlikely anything would happen to you.

But upset people that host events and see how happy they are to see you next time.
 
From the Forestrt Commissions website:



Red herring or not, the organisers cannot impose new terms and conditions of entry after an event has ocurred.


Steve.

Nothing you quoted there mentions allowing commercial gain from photography on their land.
 
Sure they can.

Whether and how they can enforce those t&cs is an entirely different matter.

No. All terms and conditions must be known before entering into a contract or agreement. You cannot impose after the fact conditions.

This is one of the basic points of contract law, although there isn't actually a contract in place here, the principle is the same.


Steve.
 
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The OP isn't talking about commercial gain, just posting images on social media.


Steve.

If he is in business, then that would drum up business for him I guess. Complex subject, not easily solved on a forum.
 
If he is in business, then that would drum up business for him I guess. Complex subject, not easily solved on a forum.


Good point. So many people with differing opinions here. Best thing to do is contact specialists.

Try this

www.own-it.org

You need to register but it is free to make a query .
 
Wow, I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest. Firstly its not my intention to upset anyone, and I am acutely aware just how small the MTB world is. What I don't understand about this organiser ( and it's the first one ever that has said no social media) is that how else are they going to gain free publicity for their events.
 
Wow, I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest. Firstly its not my intention to upset anyone, and I am acutely aware just how small the MTB world is. What I don't understand about this organiser ( and it's the first one ever that has said no social media) is that how else are they going to gain free publicity for their events.

Maybe they feel like they don't need it, it's really up to them.
 
IMO, you're mixing things up a bit.
Copyright belongs to the original creator (except in a few instances). As long as the photograph is not of a copyrighted piece you own the copyright.

The second question becomes about "restrictions to copyright." What you can do with the picture you own copyright to. Part of this question is was the image obtained "legally." Having obtained an image illegally does not transfer the copyright to someone else, it just means you have no rights to use it in any way (you could be forced to destroy the image to ensure no usage as it was obtained illegally).

"Legally" obtaining an image generally means you obtained it in accordance with any restrictions placed on taking the picture in the first place; via an individual's or organization's privacy rights. (Civil law is still law).

If it is a "private function," paid or not, then the private entity putting on that function has the right to restrict photography as they see fit.
If it is on private property, entry controlled or not, then the private owner has the right to restrict photography as they see fit (in most situations/countries, but not all).
And if it's on public (government) property there may be restrictions to photography... usually to "professional/commercial" photography and due to "safety" (i.e. setting up a bunch of lighting equipment). But it may be due to other reasons. All land is under someone's control/authority...(in these cases a violation could be "criminal" instead of "civil")

In many cases these restriction do not have to be "known" by the photographer, they just have to exist. If you enter onto private property because you did not know whether it was private or public; then you are trespassing and subject to the landowners restrictions (in most cases/countries. I *believe* this applies to the U.K. in general). Ignorance is not a defense. But they do have to exist prior. For example you enter onto private property with permission and without restriction, and start taking pictures. Then the property owner says "don't take pictures of my family." From the time of notice you have to comply.

So the next question is did TOU's exist, not did you know of them. Were they on the organizer's/property owner's website? Any paperwork that may have been distributed at the event? When you are going to do something it is your job to ensure it's "legal;" it is not their job to ensure you know.

Assuming the photograph is not a derivative work of some other copyrighted material then you own the copyright. And assuming there were no restrictions in existence at the time the pictures were taken, then they were taken "legally" and can be used as you see fit. This excludes the use of the photograph of a rider for "commercial use" (advertising) as that may violate the privacy rights of the individual (unless otherwise waived).

But what you "have the right to do" and what "you should do" may be two different things. For example, you take a families portraits and they signed a waiver. After the fact they ask you not to put their pictures on the web. You have the right to ignore their request, but doing so would probably be a very bad business decision....that's for you to decide.

So, how much is a facebook post worth to you, and what's it likely to cost you?



***there may be minor technical variances to what I've stated in various countries/states/situations.
 
The OP isn't talking about commercial gain, just posting images on social media.

Yes he is:

Nitram said:
We shoot MTB races and sell the photos on a 3rd party website.

As for getting wound up, knowing your rights is one thing, how that actually plays out in real life is a totally different thing and standing there stamping your foot won't help.

I guess that's half the problem these days, everyone "knows their rights" but it doesn't seem to make any visible improvements on civil society.
 
No charge to get in, and free public access.

You would find it that there is no ground denying editorial use for shots that are taken legally (free public access is exactly that).

Advertising use may be more tricky due to potential need of some releases.

If you feel like biting them back, get in touch with a lawyer, asses your options and maybe threaten to sue them for harassment. You would of course not have any business from them afterwards.
 
If you feel like biting them back, get in touch with a lawyer, asses your options and maybe threaten to sue them for harassment. You would of course not have any business from them afterwards.

Also, here in the real world, my lawyer charges me £220 an hour.

I'd have to really want to stick something on FB to have a chat with him about it.
 

The OP isn't talking about commercial gain, just posting images on social media.
Click to expand...
Yes he is:


you conveniently left out the bit from the op that said


" the organizers have asked us not to sell our pics directly to the competitors as they had an official photographer there, which I have no problem with." so wheres the commercial gain ?
 
There are two issues here.

1. What can the organisers do legally to stop you putting images on social media?

The answer to this is practically nothing at all.

2. What should the OP do?

That depends on what relationship he wants with the organiser of the event. Either do as asked in the hope of working with them in the future or ignore the request and hope there are no repercussions.


Steve.
 
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