Converting to B&W

[Elines]

I have received a lot of help from people on this site and am hoping that with this post I can repay some of it. If you already know the tweak below (which helps you to avoid clipping during processing) then apologies.

I was struggling with conversion of colour to B&W.

I researched methods of conversion on the internet (research which is still continuing) but the method I have settled on for the time being is the 'hue saturation' method at:

http://www.photoshopessentials.com/photo-editing/black-and-white/hue-saturation/


This was giving me some reasonable results but I recently discovered a tweak that I hadn't previously seen - and this is the bit that may be new to people. I should say that I am still working through the excellent Kelby/Kloskowski book on PSE 11 and so far as I know it isn't included in there. (If it is then - again - apologies.)

I had been trying to find a way of improving the colour image prior to conversion to B&W; and not getting very far.

Then I found out that in PSE 11 Adobe Camera Raw (and I believe its other re-incarnations Lightroom etc) if you hold down the 'alt' key when moving some of the sliders it gives you a clue as to where to position the slider.

The clue is that black bits or other colours start appearing in the 'image'. (Try it and you will see what I mean.)

This is referred to at:

http://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop-elements/using/adjusting-shadows-light.html

As a result of adding this tweak people have complimented me on my B&W conversion - which is a distinct improvement on the feedback I was getting a few weeks ago (and thanks to all for that feedback because it prompted me to improve my conversions.)

So if this helps only one person then.... job done

 

[dinorock]

already know these but have to agree your b+w convertions have come on leaps and bounds cheers mike

 

[Big Andy]

So if this helps only one person then.... job done
Job done thanks

 

[Eriktheviking]

This is a great tip Chris and its a good way of making adjustments especially conversions to B+W were its easy to clip tones. I do like the range of tones you have achieved in you album images many people don't appreciate that a conversion to B+W is more than just desaturating the shot.

 

[dinorock]

So if this helps only one person then.... job done
Job done thanks

glad it helped but you can thank the op for that

 

[Elines]

Yes - glad that at least one person has benefitted.

 

[Graeme Owens]

Ctrl Shift U on Photoshop CC removes the colour

 

[Ozei]

Then I found out that in PSE 11 Adobe Camera Raw (and I believe its other re-incarnations Lightroom etc) if you hold down the 'alt' key when moving some of the sliders it gives you a clue as to where to position the slider.

Does this work in Photoshop CS6? If I open a raw file and hold down the ALT key while moving a hue/saturation slider in ACR 8.3 it doesn't give any clues - the slider just slides.

 

[Elines]

Does this work in Photoshop CS6? If I open a raw file and hold down the ALT key while moving a hue/saturation slider in ACR 8.3 it doesn't give any clues - the slider just slides.

Sorry I can't help you there but hopefully someone else will be able to

 

[Ozei]

Sorry I can't help you there but hopefully someone else will be able to

Ok, thanks Chris.

I'd have thought Adobe Camera Raw would behave the same for both Photoshop Elements and Photoshop. When you say (for ACR in PSE 11): "if you hold down the 'alt' key when moving some of the sliders it gives you a clue as to where to position the slider" - what do you mean by 'a clue'?

 

[Eriktheviking]

Ctrl Shift U

This works in PS Elements so is likely to work in all PS products

 

[Elines]

Ok, thanks Chris.

I'd have thought Adobe Camera Raw would behave the same for both Photoshop Elements and Photoshop. When you say (for ACR in PSE 11): "if you hold down the 'alt' key when moving some of the sliders it gives you a clue as to where to position the slider" - what do you mean by 'a clue'?

Easier to see than explain but as I understand it what is happening is........

...... If you hold down the alt key and slide the slider to on extreme (can't remember if it's always the same end or not) the picture changes to almost a coloured negative, or goes completely blank. If you then slide the slider in the opposite direction individual pixels begin to appear/the last pixels disappear (depending which way you are going) . As I understand it that is the point at which the image is getting clipped ie losing pixels/information.

I also try keep an eye on the triangles at each end of the histogram - again as I understand it 'Black' is good ie no clipping, but you can't always achieve that (or at least I can't). I think that if the triangle is blue (say) then it means you are clipping blue pixels (eg).

But I stand to be corrected by anyone who actually knows about this stuff.

 

[Ozei]

...... If you hold down the alt key and slide the slider to on extreme (can't remember if it's always the same end or not) the picture changes to almost a coloured negative, or goes completely blank. If you then slide the slider in the opposite direction individual pixels begin to appear/the last pixels disappear (depending which way you are going) ....

Hmmm. I just tried adjusting the HSL/Grayscale sliders in ACR 8.3 (for CS6) - and holding down the ALT key while moving a slider is no different to just moving the slider.

 

[Furtim]

It looks to work only on:

Exposure, Highlights, Shadows, Whites, Blacks

I'm not sure it's more helpful that just clicking on the 'clipping' triangles as you indicated, but it does something for sure!

 

[Elines]

Ozei - you have two more colours to play with than I do in PSE 11 = purples and oranges, so in principle you should be able to get a more flexible use of this method. (But I don't recognize the histogram/slider screen you are showing - I don't see it when using the method in PSE 11 that I am talking about)

In PSE 11 when using the hue-saturation method you add a new fill/adjustment layer and have the channel set to MASTER for the first action which = moving the saturation slider all the way to the left.

You then work your way through each of the colour channels (= 8 in your case?) to get the B&W image as you want

Furtim

It looks to work only on:

Exposure, Highlights, Shadows, Whites, Blacks

Agreed

I'm not sure it's more helpful that just clicking on the 'clipping' triangles as you indicated, but it does something for sure!

I find using the alt key method helpful when - for example - there is a specific part of the image that is - say - overblown and by using the alt key method I can see at what point the 'overblownnness' of that one part of the image is minimised

 

[Ozei]

Ozei - you have two more colours to play with than I do in PSE 11 = purples and oranges, so in principle you should be able to get a more flexible use of this method. (But I don't recognize the histogram/slider screen you are showing - I don't see it when using the method in PSE 11 that I am talking about)

In PSE 11 when using the hue-saturation method you add a new fill/adjustment layer and have the channel set to MASTER for the first action which = moving the saturation slider all the way to the left.

You then work your way through each of the colour channels (= 8 in your case?) to get the B&W image as you want

The histogram/slider screen I posted above is the ACR 8.3 interface that I get when opening a Nikon RAW file in Photoshop CS6. It pops up before the image opens properly in CS6. Once in CS6 I can't re-open the ACR interface - adding a hue/saturation adjustment layer in the CS6 interface gives this:

 

[Elines]

........................ Once in CS6 I can't re-open the ACR interface - adding a hue/saturation adjustment layer in the CS6 interface gives this:

I think this is what you want - the actual conversion I do is in PSE 11 photo editor - not in ACR (RAW)

SO .....

• - if you slide the saturation slider all the way to the left you will get a B&W image BUT then.....
• - you click on the little arrows at the end of the 'Master' you get a drop down menu of all of the colours, THEN .....
• - for each colour in turn you move (as you think best) the lightness slider

to give you what you think is the 'best' B&W image.

The stuff about the alt key and the triangles and the 'coloured negative' is only for the bit in ACR when you are getting the image ready for conversion to B&W, which is done in photo editor (in my case in PSE 11)

 

[Ozei]

• - if you slide the saturation slider all the way to the left you will get a B&W image BUT then.....
• - you click on the little arrows at the end of the 'Master' you get a drop down menu of all of the colours, THEN .....
• - for each colour in turn you move (as you think best) the lightness slider to give you what you think is the 'best' B&W image.)

Yes, I already knew about the individual sliders in the HSL layer dropdown.

The stuff about the alt key and the triangles and the 'coloured negative' is only for the bit in ACR when you are getting the image ready for conversion to B&W, which is done in photo editor (in my case in PSE 11)

This is what I've been trying to replicate in CS6's ACR. The ALT key has no effect on the HSL adjustment tab in ACR 8.3 but it does have an effect on some of the other adjustment tabs, e.g. the one they call 'Basic'.

Here's a screen grab of the Basic tab. Holding down ALT while moving any of the sliders highlighted yellow does have an effect - I'm not sure what purpose it serves though:

 

[Elines]

........Yes, I already knew about the individual sliders in the HSL layer dropdown..............

Here's a screen grab of the Basic tab. Holding down ALT while moving any of the sliders highlighted yellow does have an effect - I'm not sure what purpose it serves though:

I thought it was worth setting out the points about the colour sliders (even if you did already know about them and I wasn't sure anyway) so that other readers (who may not know) could follow what I was saying in case they found it helpful.

For me, as mentioned above ..... I find using the alt key method helpful when - for example - there is a specific part of the image that is - say - overblown and by using the alt key method I can see at what point the 'overblownnness' of that one part of the image is minimised.

Thus - again for me - it supports the more general info you get from the histogram triangles about clipping of parts of the range of highlights/blacks etc (or whatever else it is showing) for the image as a whole.

Having said that if it doesn't help you then so be it - all I can say is that since I have been converting from colour to B&W using this method I have received favourable comments whereas before I started doing them this way I received nealry100% unfavourable ones. (Mind you, that's not to say that I will always do good conversions)

 

[Ozei]

I'll have to read up on what's being indicated when I hold down the ALT key in CS6's ACR (Adobe have obviously added the feature for a good reason but I don't understand it properly) - I suspect the indicators you get with the ALT key in PSE 11 are different to the ones I get in CS6. I haven't got PSE so I can't compare it side-by-side with CS6 using the same RAW file.

The answer is bound to be somewhere in Martin Evening's excellent book 'Adobe Photoshop for Photographers' - it's just a case of finding it amongst the 800 pages! http://www.amazon.co.uk/Adobe-Photoshop-CS6-Photographers-professional/dp/024052604X

 

[Elines]

OK - thanks - will be interesting to see what the 'official' reason/use is.

 

[Buck]

Here's a snippet from the "The Missing Manual" which might explain the ALT key usage - it's also used in this way in LR so is an Adobe tool across many of their software suites

If you hold down the Option key(Alt on a PC)as you drag the shadows or highlights sliders,you can see which parts of your image you’re forcing to pure black or white. For example, Option-drag (Alt-drag) the shadows slider to the right, and the image turns completely white. The darkest parts of the image begin to reappear as you drag, first in black and then in other colors. Option-drag (Alt-drag) the highlights slider to the left, and the opposite happens: The image turns completely black, and the lightest parts are the first ones to reappear, first in white and then in color. Option-dragging (Alt-dragging) is a great way to tell whether you’re dragging the sliders too far because whatever areas are visible while you drag are the ones that will be pure black or pure white. It’s also a great trick for finding the image’s lightest highlights and darkest shadows.

 

[Elines]

Here's a snippet from the "The Missing Manual" which might explain the ALT key usage - it's also used in this way in LR so is an Adobe tool across many of their software suites

If you hold down the Option key(Alt on a PC)as you drag the shadows or highlights sliders,you can see which parts of your image you’re forcing to pure black or white. For example, Option-drag (Alt-drag) the shadows slider to the right, and the image turns completely white. The darkest parts of the image begin to reappear as you drag, first in black and then in other colors. Option-drag (Alt-drag) the highlights slider to the left, and the opposite happens: The image turns completely black, and the lightest parts are the first ones to reappear, first in white and then in color. Option-dragging (Alt-dragging) is a great way to tell whether you’re dragging the sliders too far because whatever areas are visible while you drag are the ones that will be pure black or pure white. It’s also a great trick for finding the image’s lightest highlights and darkest shadows.

Thanks for that - it confirms what I was saying about how I used it - must be a first for me!!

 

[Ozei]

OK - thanks - will be interesting to see what the 'official' reason/use is.

Chris: I've searched the whole of the 125-page chapter called 'Camera Raw Processing' and Martin Evening (the author) doesn't mention the ALT key at all - which is strange because the book is very, very comprehensive.

Here's a snippet from the "The Missing Manual" which might explain the ALT key usage - it's also used in this way in LR so is an Adobe tool across many of their software suites

If you hold down the Option key(Alt on a PC)as you drag the shadows or highlights sliders,you can see which parts of your image you’re forcing to pure black or white. For example, Option-drag (Alt-drag) the shadows slider to the right, and the image turns completely white. The darkest parts of the image begin to reappear as you drag, first in black and then in other colors. Option-drag (Alt-drag) the highlights slider to the left, and the opposite happens: The image turns completely black, and the lightest parts are the first ones to reappear, first in white and then in color. Option-dragging (Alt-dragging) is a great way to tell whether you’re dragging the sliders too far because whatever areas are visible while you drag are the ones that will be pure black or pure white. It’s also a great trick for finding the image’s lightest highlights and darkest shadows.

Adrian: I just found that passage on the interweb (link) and it's referring to a levels adjustment layer in the main Photoshop interface. I'm trying to find an explanation of how to use the ALT key option in the Camera Raw 8.3 interface, which is much more complicated because there are eight different adjustment tabs (instead of a single adjustment layer) and a total of 72 sliders (the ALT key works on some but not others).

PS. The book looks pretty useful - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Photoshop-CS6-Missing-Manual-Manuals/dp/1449316158

 

[Anthony.Ralph]

[..]

I'm trying to find an explanation of how to use the ALT key option in the Camera Raw 8.3 interface,
[..]

In the basic panel, holding down the ALT key whilst using those sliders which relate to clipping ie. Exposure, Highlights, Shadows, etc. invokes either a black or white overlay on the image. Moving the relevant slider left and right starts to show areas of maximum brightness (or maximum darkness) this allows the user to adjust the slider to obtain the point of clipping, which is when there is just the first appearance of black (or white) on the blank overlay. This has been an ACR/Lightroom feature since the earliest versions.

Anthony.

 

[Buck]

Chris: I've searched the whole of the 125-page chapter called 'Camera Raw Processing' and Martin Evening (the author) doesn't mention the ALT key at all - which is strange because the book is very, very comprehensive.



Adrian: I just found that passage on the interweb (link) and it's referring to a levels adjustment layer in the main Photoshop interface. I'm trying to find an explanation of how to use the ALT key option in the Camera Raw 8.3 interface, which is much more complicated because there are eight different adjustment tabs (instead of a single adjustment layer) and a total of 72 sliders (the ALT key works on some but not others).

PS. The book looks pretty useful - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Photoshop-CS6-Missing-Manual-Manuals/dp/1449316158

Hi, I took that excerpt from the ACR chapter so i think it is a functionality that applies to sliders in general that intiate clipping of shadows or highlights to pur black or white respectively.

In the basic panel, holding down the ALT key whilst using those sliders which relate to clipping ie. Exposure, Highlights, Shadows, etc. invokes either a black or white overlay on the image. Moving the relevant slider left and right starts to show areas of maximum brightness (or maximum darkness) this allows the user to adjust the slider to obtain the point of clipping, which is when there is just the first appearance of black (or white) on the blank overlay. This has been an ACR/Lightroom feature since the earliest versions.

Anthony.

^Anthony explains it more eloquently than I can!

 

[Elines]

Anyway ..... my point is that to prepare an image for conversion to B&W, I use the alt key in PSE11, ACR to help make sure that - in conjunction with the triangles on the end of the histogram - I get the 'best' image in terms of information eg retain/produce detail in shadows and avoid total loss of detail in white areas.

In principle the same could apply to production of a colour image, depending on what effect you are looking for.

As regards the actual conversion to B&W I then use the hue/saturation adjustment layer part, as explained above

 

[Ozei]

In the basic panel, holding down the ALT key whilst using those sliders which relate to clipping ie. Exposure, Highlights, Shadows, etc. invokes either a black or white overlay on the image. Moving the relevant slider left and right starts to show areas of maximum brightness (or maximum darkness) this allows the user to adjust the slider to obtain the point of clipping, which is when there is just the first appearance of black (or white) on the blank overlay. This has been an ACR/Lightroom feature since the earliest versions.

Anthony.

Ah, thanks Anthony - that's the explanation I was looking for. I've used both CS5 and CS6 and I never even realised the ALT key feature was there! I'm surprised there's no mention of it in Martin Evening's book (which is what I refer to if I ever get stuck). Perhaps I should get the book Adrian mentions as well - although both together would total nearly 1700 pages.

Anyway ..... my point is that to prepare an image for conversion to B&W, I use the alt key in PSE11, ACR to help make sure that - in conjunction with the triangles on the end of the histogram - I get the 'best' image in terms of information eg retain/produce detail in shadows and avoid total loss of detail in white areas. ............ As regards the actual conversion to B&W I then use the hue/saturation adjustment layer part, as explained above

Yes, I realised what you were using it for and why - I just couldn't work out how to use it myself (i.e. the CS6 version).

 

[Ozei]

Hi, I took that excerpt from the ACR chapter so i think it is a functionality that applies to sliders in general that intiate clipping of shadows or highlights to pur black or white respectively.

^Anthony explains it more eloquently than I can!

Thanks Adrian - I've got it now thanks to Anthony's explanation.

I notice they do a Kindle version of your book - link - I wonder if there's a pdf version as well (I find it difficult to read printed reference books during an edit - and I don't have a Kindle).

 

[Buck]

Thanks Adrian - I've got it now thanks to Anthony's explanation.

I notice they do a Kindle version of your book - link - I wonder if there's a pdf version as well (I find it difficult to read printed reference books during an edit - and I don't have a Kindle).

I've sent you a PM re PDFs

 

[swanseamale47]

The Alt/opt key also works on the sharpening palette in ACR, (it's really usefull on the masking slider)

 

[Ozei]

I've sent you a PM re PDFs

I've just seen it - many thanks.

 

[Ozei]

The Alt/opt key also works on the sharpening palette in ACR, (it's really usefull on the masking slider)

Yes, I've spotted that Wayne. I'll have to have a play with it and see how it compares to Photoshop's unsharp mask & smart sharpen, etc.

 

[Elines]

The Alt/opt key also works on the sharpening palette in ACR, (it's really usefull on the masking slider)

I tend to forget all about sharpening as I can't judge when it is 'right' so will have a go at this to se if it helps me get my head round it - thanks

 

[Elines]

The Alt/opt key also works on the sharpening palette in ACR, (it's really usefull on the masking slider)

Well I just had a quick play and I can't work out what is happening/in which order to use the sliders to get the 'best' effect (whatever that is)

And that is part of my problem with sharpening - I am not clear what it is that I am trying to do - especially as there is an automatic 25% already added when you open PSE 11 ACR

Can you provide any links/guidance please?

 

[swanseamale47]

The amount is the strength of the sharpening, radius is how many pixles on either side of an edge (rough guide, images with lots of fine detail require a lower radius, while mages with less detail can have a higher radius) masking reduces the sharpening in non edge areas such as skin etc (where you don't want to sharpen)
As a starting point try for faces amount 35, radius 1.4 and detail 15, and for landscapes amount 40 radius 0.8 and masking 0 (settings suggested by Jeff Schewe who helped make photoshops sharpening)

 

[Elines]

The amount is the strength of the sharpening, radius is how many pixles on either side of an edge (rough guide, images with lots of fine detail require a lower radius, while mages with less detail can have a higher radius) masking reduces the sharpening in non edge areas such as skin etc (where you don't want to sharpen)
As a starting point try for faces amount 35, radius 1.4 and detail 15, and for landscapes amount 40 radius 0.8 and masking 0 (settings suggested by Jeff Schewe who helped make photoshops sharpening)

That is really helpful - thanks very much - you have given me a starting point and basic understanding that I can work with

 

[droj]

I don't sharpen images from scanner or camera that I'm merely archiving - I only think about sharpening after re-sizing an image for a particular output requirement. I leave the archived original as it is to supply different future purposes. Re-size first, and only then sharpen if necessary, zooming to 100% to gauge the effect properly - over-sharpening is an often-seen and ugly effect.

 

[Elines]

I don't sharpen images from scanner or camera that I'm merely archiving - I only think about sharpening after re-sizing an image for a particular output requirement. I leave the archived original as it is to supply different future purposes. Re-size first, and only then sharpen if necessary, zooming to 100% to gauge the effect properly - over-sharpening is an often-seen and ugly effect.

Thanks - I think that I always forget about sharpening because when I have tried it I have not seen any significant improvement whenever - but with swanseamale47 starting point I will be in a apposition to take a more informed view - which may be not to bother too much unless it is a special image for some reason or other.

 

[droj]

Horses for courses.