Constant hostility - how to handle?

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lightsource

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Hi,

So I'm used to constantly being made to feel like a weirdo, an annoyance or a criminal, whenever I'm taking photos. And today was one of those occasions.

There's a large (~20), ever-shifting group of skateboarders doing their thing by the side of a busy public street in a VERY touristy area. Lots of people stopping by to take photos, including me.

Everything's fine until I get a teeny bit bolder. Having seen some other commuters etc walking right in amongst them, and reflecting on the fact that it's 100% a public space, I walk along the edge of a barrier to creep a little closer. I'm about 15 feet away with my Canon DSLR and 50mm lens, when one of them starts shouting at me: "Hey, WTF are you doing? Why are you taking my photo? I'm not even doing anything right now! You can't do that!". Another guy chips in: "You're so disrespectful!".

I wanted to explain what I was doing and hear their perspective, out of genuine interest, so I walk up and ask "Why is it disrespectful? Skateboarding is your sport, photography's mine - we're just doing our thing. There are so many of you I couldn't really ask for everyone's permission!"

But I couldn't reason with them one bit. They kept insisting that it was "disrespectful" to take photos "without even asking", and then turned nasty, shouting "P**** perv" repeatedly. They were all grown men, incidentally, as am I. After the "disrespectful" comment that seemed a tad ironic...

Perhaps some people would argue it's better to walk away and not stand your ground, but I am SO tired of being heckled, intimidated or talked down to (I do photography professionally a little bit), that I was not going to just sheepishly skulk away. My mistake was thinking that we could have an adult conversation about it.

Anyway the long and short is, I sometimes wonder if any other (legal) hobby causes quite so much hostility. The more people talk to me like a cross between a paedophile, a stalker and a gutter pap, the more I feel like rubbish - that kind of sick and guilty feeling inside, even though I've done absolutely nothing wrong. Sometimes it makes me want to give up completely!

How do other people deal with this? Am I being too thin skinned or is it a common feeling?
 
Must admit Ive never had a single comment when out photographing, its only when Im not do I get constant abuse. (I have long hair and a beard, I must either be a hippy or a lesbian apparently).

Its hard, and I dont like it one bit, but if you get in that situation, just walk away. they arent worth the hassle. Go and photograph someone who wants to be, or doesnt cause a scene.

Most of these skaters have the brains of 6 year olds seemingly from the ones Ive met and wouldnt know an adult conversion if it hit them round the head with the plank of wood they spend all day standing on. Just move on and find something else.
 
round my way they would be shouting far worse than that to be honest, they must have been ever so polite to be calling you 'disrespectful' lol.

with regards to the skateboarders-was there much of an age difference between you or them? i've photographed skaters in the city center before but i'm only a few years older than them so perhaps that might have been an issue? generation gap and all that jazz. i would try approaching them before shooting a frame and explaining that you find what they are doing interesting, ask if you can photograph them and explain that they can find the pics on your facebook page if you have one and they can tag themselves. you get pics that you want and they get pics that they didn't know they wanted.

i've been heckled before by kids whilst shooting, but i would say i'm fairly thick skinned so it's not much of an issue for me to be honest. i was called a 'P****' before, but i was shooting light trails and the kids were pretty wasted so i let that one slide lol.

tonight i was shooting my cousins daughters 1st birthday and there were other kids there obviously. even though i was family and good friends with my cousin and her partner i still got a few looks from the other parents when the dslr came out. it's just the society that we live in these days - the press has us all tarred with the same brush unfortunately.
 
TCR4x4 said:
Must admit Ive never had a single comment when out photographing, its only when Im not do I get constant abuse. (I have long hair and a beard, I must either be a hippy or a lesbian apparently).

Its hard, and I dont like it one bit, but if you get in that situation, just walk away. they arent worth the hassle. Go and photograph someone who wants to be, or doesnt cause a scene.

Most of these skaters have the brains of 6 year olds seemingly from the ones Ive met and wouldnt know an adult conversion if it hit them round the head with the plank of wood they spend all day standing on. Just move on and find something else.
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you poor man :lol:
 
Ohh dear :/ Poor you! Some people just dont really understand and turn it into something its not! I was photographing my dogs in the fields the other day, and some woman with her child was giving me the dirtiest look ever, though my lens were not facing her at all. I just tend to ask people now If there is a situation I want to do my photography. Though sometimes I don't :P.

Issy
 
I've not been accosted whilst taking photos - had a few weird looks but no confrontations :)

One of my other hobbies, however, is green lane driving - all perfectly legal and above board - but it's pretty unusual to go out for a days drive and not have a run-in with some ramblers or a farmer or local busybody. It's a contentious hobby but currently still legal so I will continue to do it.
 
lexie said:
with regards to the skateboarders-was there much of an age difference between you or them?
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This is the thing - I thought they'd be cool with it in particular as there was very little age difference. They were mostly in their 20s, I'm early 30s but regularly mistaken for mid-20s. However, I'm a tad geeky looking and speccy - this never helps, in my experience. I'd be surprised if a girl or a tough looking fella would get the same treatment, but c'est la vie!

lexie said:
i would try approaching them before shooting a frame and explaining that you find what they are doing interesting, ask if you can photograph them and explain that they can find the pics on your facebook page if you have one and they can tag themselves.
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Nice in theory for sure, but there was so much zooming back and forth of skateboards that it would have been like crossing a motorway to ask a single driver if I could take photos of all the cars! I was also imagining that they'd find that MORE intrusive than just hanging back and taking photos - a non-skateboarder directly invading their space and trying to strike up a conversation. But you're right, as a rule this is probably the safest and most courteous approach, if you can pull it off.

lexie said:
tonight i was shooting my cousins daughters 1st birthday and there were other kids there obviously. even though i was family and good friends with my cousin and her partner i still got a few looks from the other parents when the dslr came out. it's just the society that we live in these days - the press has us all tarred with the same brush unfortunately.
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I HATE feeling people looking at me wondering if I'm a pervert/paedophile! I find that so deeply uncomfortable that it puts me off the whole thing altogether. I think again it probably comes down to being a slightly geeky looking guy, already feeling like people make those kind of judgements about me! Insecurity, I guess.
 
TCR4x4 said:
Most of these skaters have the brains of 6 year olds seemingly from the ones Ive met and wouldnt know an adult conversion if it hit them round the head with the plank of wood they spend all day standing on. Just move on and find something else.
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Do you understand the word irony?

To the OP

I skate, have done for years and am now in mid 30's. Most skaters are cool but walking up and snapping away will not really do you any favours in a lot of situations, not only skaters.

The skaters are there to skate, not to do anything else, they are not street entertainers, although in places such as Southbank a lot of people do stop and watch, it does not mean they are there to perform for you.

What would happen if you walk up to a group of people playing football in the park and start snapping them, do you not think their reaction would be the same? There is no law against photographs in public places, but you should not be naive and think that you will not sometimes get a reaction you do not like.
 
Bristolian said:
I've not been accosted whilst taking photos - had a few weird looks but no confrontations :)

One of my other hobbies, however, is green lane driving - all perfectly legal and above board - but it's pretty unusual to go out for a days drive and not have a run-in with some ramblers or a farmer or local busybody. It's a contentious hobby but currently still legal so I will continue to do it.
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Ah yes, ramblers... I too green lane, and have to put up with accusations of ruining the countryside.

ding76uk said:
Do you understand the word irony?
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Yes? Whats that got to do with anything. I said the ones I've met, which is true, And Ive met a lot. In fact at one point everyone I knew was a skater when I was at school.
 
I'm a long-haired metal guitarist who also has an absolute obsession with bird photography so i feel your pain with being treated like a freak, because i actually am really :lol:
However i would respect people if they asked not to have photos taken. In fact i'd ask if it was ok first because i know i'd not like it if people did it to me.

There are a lot of people out there who you'd make feel really ill with anxiety almost forcing yourself on them like that and spoil their day out too (it would with me :$)

lightsource said:
Hi,

So I'm used to constantly being made to feel like a weirdo, an annoyance or a criminal, whenever I'm taking photos. And today was one of those occasions.

There's a large (~20), ever-shifting group of skateboarders doing their thing by the side of a busy public street in a VERY touristy area. Lots of people stopping by to take photos, including me.

Everything's fine until I get a teeny bit bolder. Having seen some other commuters etc walking right in amongst them, and reflecting on the fact that it's 100% a public space, I walk along the edge of a barrier to creep a little closer. I'm about 15 feet away with my Canon DSLR and 50mm lens, when one of them starts shouting at me: "Hey, WTF are you doing? Why are you taking my photo? I'm not even doing anything right now! You can't do that!". Another guy chips in: "You're so disrespectful!".

I wanted to explain what I was doing and hear their perspective, out of genuine interest, so I walk up and ask "Why is it disrespectful? Skateboarding is your sport, photography's mine - we're just doing our thing. There are so many of you I couldn't really ask for everyone's permission!"

But I couldn't reason with them one bit. They kept insisting that it was "disrespectful" to take photos "without even asking", and then turned nasty, shouting "P**** perv" repeatedly. They were all grown men, incidentally, as am I. After the "disrespectful" comment that seemed a tad ironic...

Perhaps some people would argue it's better to walk away and not stand your ground, but I am SO tired of being heckled, intimidated or talked down to (I do photography professionally a little bit), that I was not going to just sheepishly skulk away. My mistake was thinking that we could have an adult conversation about it.

Anyway the long and short is, I sometimes wonder if any other (legal) hobby causes quite so much hostility. The more people talk to me like a cross between a paedophile, a stalker and a gutter pap, the more I feel like rubbish - that kind of sick and guilty feeling inside, even though I've done absolutely nothing wrong. Sometimes it makes me want to give up completely!

How do other people deal with this? Am I being too thin skinned or is it a common feeling?
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Thanks ding76uk - I didn't come here just to vent, I really wanted to hear perspectives from all different sides.

Even though the skaters who spoke to me today were unnecessarily rude, I appreciate that they may have felt uncomfortable with someone getting a little closer than the average tourist. I suppose they're used to tourist snapshots, but anything expressing more serious intent feels like crossing the line.

From my perspective, it didn't feel disrespectful at all - I was viewing skating as an artform, paying tribute to it by trying to make it look as good as possible. I suppose they meant disrespectful for not personally asking each of them in advance, but clearly that's not always practical.

For me, I guess my mistakes were a) knowing that you need to be bold and adventurous to get the best shots, and just going for it instead of walking away, and b) thinking that it was such an open public space that nobody would have serious objections.

ding76uk said:
What would happen if you walk up to a group of people playing football in the park and start snapping them, do you not think their reaction would be the same? There is no law against photographs in public places, but you should not be naive and think that you will not sometimes get a reaction you do not like.
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The football analogy is fair enough, but if that football game was happening in the middle of Trafalgar Square, it would be a very different scenario, surely?
 
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TCR4x4 said:
Ah yes, ramblers... I too green lane, and have to put up with accusations of ruining the countryside.



Yes? Whats that got to do with anything. I said the ones I've met, which is true, And Ive met a lot. In fact at one point everyone I knew was a skater when I was at school.
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Because you say you get constant abuse because of your look, then completely generalise another group with your followup. You do the same thing you bemoan others for doing.

I know lots of skaters throughout the country and very very few are as you describe, I have also met very few long haired bearded lesbians. But that is always the problem when people make sweeping generalisations.
 
Werecow said:
There are a lot of people out there who you'd make feel really ill with anxiety almost forcing yourself on them like that and spoil their day out too (it would with me :$)
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Fair point, hadn't thought of it quite like that. My assumption was that anybody skating in public, which entails falling on your arse regularly in front of endless passing tourists, wouldn't be so sensitive. It wasn't like I was taking photos of people dining al fresco, or something!

But yes, next time I'll consider other people potentially being seriously camera-shy, and their anxiety being expressed as anger (as it happens, the guys complaining were clearly not the best skaters there, and probably felt self-conscious).
 
I have never had an issue with trouble when taking photo's, I get lots of abuse over other things, from my other hobbies fishing and green laneing as above, but the main area of abuse is over my weight which has caused a number of fights by friends taking issue with these morons :)

Matt
MWHCVT
 
ding76uk said:
Because you say you get constant abuse because of your look, then completely generalise another group with your followup. You do the same thing you bemoan others for doing.

I know lots of skaters throughout the country and very very few are as you describe, I have also met very few long haired bearded lesbians. But that is always the problem when people make sweeping generalisations.
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I'm only generalising the ones I have met, who have all been less than fortunate in the brain department. I'm sure there are many well spoken highly educated skaters around, I've just never met one, same as I've never met a bearded lesbian... Oh wait, I did actually in that strange pub in Cheltenham.
 
TCR4x4 said:
I'm only generalising the ones I have met, who have all been less than fortunate in the brain department. I'm sure there are many well spoken highly educated skaters around, I've just never met one, same as I've never met a bearded lesbian... Oh wait, I did actually in that strange pub in Cheltenham.
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:lol:
 
Hey if you want to read about an over reaction, read my post about the run in I had with security and the police the other day LOL. There wasn't even anyone around.

But seriously, most of the time it's not such an issue, I've done quite a bit of urban type street photography and I think a lot of it has to do with how you behave around certain types of people. For instance with the skaters, if you snapped a few shots and moved on quickly it may not have been a problem. But it sounds like you kept slowly moving closer, and I really think that's where the problem started. If you just keep shooting for a long time in someones direction it's not really polite if they are not there to entertain an audience.

If on the other hand you walked straight up to them without taking any shots and just said hey, and watched them without taking any pics for a couple of minutes, it gives the impression that you are interested in what they are doing and not just them as a photographic subject. Then IF they didn't seem to mind you taking an interest in what they were doing just say to one of them, hey can I get a few shots? They might have actually let you go nuts and put on a bit of a show for you especially if they thought you might give them a few of the shots.

It's something you would have to make a judgement about by being there, if they seem too unfriendly just move on. I have done this type of thing on lots of occasions with guys jumping off a jetty into the water, bmx riders, bike couriers, even workmen on the street. Some people will give you their email address so you can send them a couple of images which I do as a thank you if they like. You will of course get people that say no thanks, I just smile and say no problem and leave. I know not everyone finds it easy to be outgoing and friendly with people on the street, but if you interested in that type of photography you will find it much easier if you can work on that.
 
lensflair, thank you very much - you're totally right, your suggested approach sounds SO much better than mine was. Very helpful indeed.

Yes, I was really intensely focused on taking photographs and not spending a huge amount of time just watching with the camera packed (as I didn't want to miss any golden moments). Plus I lingered around for a long time and I slowly crept closer as I felt a bit bolder.

In retrospect, I can totally see why that was offputting and creepy-looking. In my professional life I'm constantly asking permission to take photos, but somehow once I'm out of the comfort zone of having my work pass and some higher authority to back me, I get shy and lose the people skills as I focus on the technical stuff instead.

I'll definitely learn from the experience and everyone's advice.
 
lightsource, another thing you could do is offer to email them some photos in exchange for letting you take photos. I've actually been asked by surfers if i'm going to take photos of them and if so could they have some. Unfortunately for them i was taking photos of wildlife, but it's a good tactic to open up opportunities.
 
TCR4x4 said:
Ah yes, ramblers... I too green lane, and have to put up with accusations of ruining the countryside.
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That is because you do.....................:exit:
 
I've only once been seriously challenged as described and again thought I could talk rationally about it, but this woman kept ranting, calling me a pervert and saying she was calling the police. In the end I said I was calling the police about her threatening behaviour as it was her breaking the law.
 
Werecow said:
lightsource, another thing you could do is offer to email them some photos in exchange for letting you take photos.
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I've done this before - most people if you explain that you are shooting for a hobby and they won't find themselves advertising something are really reasonable. Most aren't that bothered about actually receiving the picture and don't give the email address in the end, but they like that you offered.

(Note: I'm a 5ft tall woman, so perhaps I'm treated differently than a bloke would be)
 
TCR4x4 said:
Ah yes, ramblers... I too green lane, and have to put up with accusations of ruining the countryside.
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Me too, Ive had plenty of problems off ramblers, usually walking really slow infront of my 4x4, and to anyone who complains about us ruining the countryside, stop walking on our roads:lol:
 
Without wanting to sound like a pain - let's not get into a green lane discussion.

Personally I've not had any verbal run ins with anyone, a few odd looks but nothing worth worring about. This is quite interesting though as I'd love to pop down to the skate park to get some action shots, been about 16 years since I was there myself but as I sign of how things have changed in that time we never had anyone try and take pictures of us. Maybe we weren't any good!?!

Anyway I'd say that socially no-one has a problem with a cameraphone, hell you can take a picture without anyone knowing now. People seem to link a professional camera to the papparazzi, terrorists and peadophiles and as such they are worried that bad things will happen to them if you take their picture.

But then, you are taking their picture and it would be courteous to ask if it was ok, I wouldn't say it was essential as that may not be practical but to open a dialogue with the subject may help things along. Get some cards printed with a few details on so they can contact you to see the pictures, very few people say no to some good quality free pics of themselves doing something cool.

I do live in the hope that as DSLR's become more prolific then peoples perception will change and they will realise that crimes are not the cameras fault.
 
Just pull your gun out and shoot them for disrespecting your disrespect for them. They would understand that :)

You cant reason with an idiot

Tom
 
I've had a few odd looks when using my DSLR in a playground taking shots of my 19 month old daughter, but I took the time to ask the parents of any kids on the equipment she was using, and they've been fine. I don't think they'd have been so happy if I had just snapped away, but a little chat places them in control and so they don't percieve your actions as threatening.
 
As am ex-user of many skateparks (BMX not skate), and being at a reasonable level (well, is used to be!) I can understand if they were not keen on the camera. Somethimes if you're trying something new (particularly if its a risky move) you really have to focus and distractions can be frustrating. At times I've had people approach to take shots, and if they started a dialogue then it's better for both. If someone said they wanted photos then usually me and my friends would have done things we knew we could pull off, kinda showing off, which results in better pics for the 'tog, and a happier rider/skater. Then after a while if the guy wasn't too 'in our faces' then we would go back to trying something new.

In a situation like that, a bit of opening dialogue won't spoil the pics (like some candid stuff), but if anything, allow you to get better pics.
 
Werecow said:
lightsource, another thing you could do is offer to email them some photos in exchange for letting you take photos. I've actually been asked by surfers if i'm going to take photos of them and if so could they have some. Unfortunately for them i was taking photos of wildlife, but it's a good tactic to open up opportunities.
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I have some business cards printed up for my website. Always handy
 
I often pick my 11 year little girl up from school and we walk the short distance home past a lake, she likes to feed the ducks, swans and geese, also she likes dad to photograph the ducks, swans and geese.
Often I am at the school with a prosumer camera and the biggest lens I have over my shoulder, first few times some mums gave me a funny look so I gave them my card and told them how my little girl like dad taking photos of the wild fowl on the lake.
Now no one takes notice of what I photograph and some of the yummy mummies have modelled for me in my little studio.
The point being as a stranger pushing a camera up someone nose you P them off, as someone they have meet and got to know you are just part of the seen.
 
There is a problem here .... and an old one. What right have they (public) to tell you anything about what your doing? They are in a public place as are you.

When you turn up with a banjo i will give you a funny look. When you start playing it .... that is disrespectful to me because i dont like what your making me hear.

The public has no right to tell you what you should be doing as long as its within the law.

You have no right to tell them what to do either.

When you and they are in public .... just get on with your lives and let live.

CCTV, Cash Points, shops, mobile phones, busses, trains, taxis etc all have cameras, why dont they get this?

Togs have become soft targets because we take it, try and reason and by doing so are seen as on the back foot .... ergo .... doing wrong.

No, I want to take a photo, leave me alone to do it.

Tom
 
As already mentioned telling them they can get the shots on Facebook or similar might work. Another possibility would be to carry a small portfolio with you of similar shots you intend to take, if you are good at what you do then that might just impress them enough :shrug:
 
Tokkelossi said:
What right have they (public) to tell you anything about what your doing? They are in a public place as are you.
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Part of me feels the same. I mean, it's not like these skaters asked everyone on the street if it was cool for them to take over a huge area to skate in. I don't expect them to grovel for permission - neither should I have to. It feels a little bit like "What you lookin' at?" mentality to get angry with a hobby photographer.

But it's just an evolutionary defense mechanism, I think - you feel insecure and vulnerable when you can sense yourself being watched, as if you're prey, with someone pointing a lens at you like a gun. Add to this peoples' natural self-consciousness about appearance, the desire to retain control over your public image, resentment about excessive surveillance, fear of new technologies breaking down the barriers between private/public etc...

So I don't blame people for that reaction, and I appreciate there's a need to take a certain tactful, communicative approach in order to move past those instincts and get better shots and happier subjects, and maybe meet some interesting people along the way.

But it still bugs me, being talked to like scum. It's an artistic, quiet hobby, not aggressive busking or something.
 
TCR4x4 said:
I'm only generalising the ones I have met, who have all been less than fortunate in the brain department. I'm sure there are many well spoken highly educated skaters around, I've just never met one, same as I've never met a bearded lesbian... Oh wait, I did actually in that strange pub in Cheltenham.
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Isn't that the same for the general public who are used to seeing photographers being brandished as paedophiles and terrorists on the front page of the daily mail?

Again it is still generalising.
 
I know it seem to be getting toughter,out their theses days,i think we have become a soft target,for everyone to have a go at :(
 
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Ramblers? They're prtty much hated round here!
 
I'm in my 30s now and have skated for over 20 years. I have to say, I disagree with a lot of the comments here...and surprisingly, I think Lensflair is spot on.

Imagine if you were sat on a park bench eating your lunch, and someone walked along, stood 5 feet in front, directly facing you, and just stared...

Maybe staring's their thing....their hobby..? You'd find it pretty rude, no? The camera's no different. You've got to take in some common sense on this one.

If someone's to walk past and give you a quick glance, maybe even 3 or four...it wouldn't really bother you. Taking a couple of snaps as your about is fine. Gradually closing in on someone's personal space is a different thing altogether.

Say even if you focused on a random individual in the street. And followed them. Taking pictures from every angle. They'd get a bit annoyed after ten minutes of that.

Yeah, skaters get used to the fact that some people like to stop and watch, and most of the time wouldn't mind pictures being taken. But if you're going to get in that close, not say a word and make them feel quite uncomfortable, then you may as well walk into peoples gardens and take pictures of them sunbathing.

They tend to be a diverse bunch, and while a lot are a bit rough around the edges spending a lot of time around the streets, you'd be surprised how many are well educated, polite, and generally very pleasant people to deal with. 9 times out of 10, if you go up and ask first, there won't be a problem. You'll probably even find that at least one of them are into photography themselves!
 
20 year olds calling you a P**** for taking photographs of them need to learn the definition of the term.....or are they children. They probably don't understand the term irony either.

Unfortunately this is a sign of the times we live in - the younger generation in particular are aggressive and often disrespectful even when you don't have a camera.

I would have probably asked if it was ok to photograph with a general shouted question - never had a problem when I have:thumbs:

I respect the kids as well - they have a right to privacy
 
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I've taken a few sets of photos at skateparks, and always start by watching for a bit, kit in bag, then go up to one of the lads (or ladies!) and ask if it's cool to take a few pictures. Each time so far it's led to a conversation about what I do with the pics, and quite often they've later had a nose on facebook and they've got a new profile pic with my web address watermarked in the corner. Sorted!

I suppose it helps that I'm near enough the same age as most of them
 
Canon Bob said:
Do the other skaters accuse him of being a "P**** perv" too ?
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If I walked around where I live, and started taking photos of people, getting in their faces...

I'd get stabbed.

By no means do two wrongs make a right, but a little common sense and courtesy will work wonders, t'is all I'm saying.
 
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