Composition and hyper-focal distance

bri wig

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Hi,help required please, picture the scene, a beautiful landscape , you've got the image in mind that you want,the hyper-focal distance for the focal length ( and foreground interest) is five feet, but your focus point will not cover the the five foot point.you cannot depress the shutter button half way and recompose ,because your using N.D filters, if you alter the focal length your composition will alter.Try as I might , I cannot get my head around this, can someone explain.
Thanks. :thinking::thinking:
 
Sorry pressed the wrong key, if you take your metre reading then switch to manual for aperture, shutter and focus.
 
So it's that simple John,if I get the five foot mark in focus then I,ve cracked it ,bloody hell ,I've been tearing my hair out thinking there's some magic formula.Thanks.
 
Wasn't entirely sure whether it would give you what you want Brian, so posed it as a question in case you hadn't considered it already

Sorry for the confusion
 
Hyper-focasing is about using the Depth of focus range of the selected aperture to cover the area of interest in your composition, and focusing using focus scale, rather than by eye through the view finder. (or letting the AF system 'guess' what you want!)

For big-stoppa, ND filter shots, where you cant actually see bog all through the welding glass to focus by eye.... seems like a good trick to me.....

Rule of thumb is acceptable focus extends 1/3 infront & 2/3 behind point of focus, so lets say you have a child in a park; focus ON the child, and you get I don't know, a soccer ball in front of them out of focus, and hedge behind in clear focus.... but you want to concentrate viewers attension on the child and ball..... and selective focus on the kid would be good.

Now if you focus on the ball, instead of the child... you get the back-ground hedge out of focus.... BUT through the view-finder, child probably also looks fuzzy, because the aperture is probably not stopped down to show true DoF, but left 'wide' until moment of exposure to give brightest view-finder image.... so you may not be able to tell, if the child will be within the DoF until after you have taken picture.

Modern Digi-Cam... you press shutter and peek at screen, you may be able to tell.... though no-where near as good as on old manual focus cameras that had Depth-Of-Field preview to stop the lens aperture down so you could see through the view-finder.... or better still, Hyperfocus scale on the lens!

dsc_1830.jpg


Scale has marks either side of the focus index, for each apperture setting; that suggest the Depth of focus range on the focus distance scale.

So.. on that lens (a 58mm Helios 44 BTW), aparture is set to f4, focus at 4m, and DoF scale offers acceptable focus from aprox 3 1/4m to about 5 1/2m... 3/4m in front of point of focus, 1 1/2m behind, roughly the 1/3 to 2/3 proportion suggested.

Using same scale, and point of focus; if you set f16, you'd have DoF from just over 2m to just shy of infinity......

See how it works? Using a Hyperfocusing scale, you 'set' the focus range, you don't focus on a subject.

Your situation..... unable to actually see very much through heavy density ND filter.... PERFECT situation to use Hyperfocasing, set by scale, rather than looking through the lens and trying to focus on a subject point.....

Except, you dont have a Hyper-focus scale, I suspect.... and if you DID?

Well, Helios 44 runs out of f-stops higher than f16, but stopped down as far as that lens will go, and setting infinity focus mark just inside the f16 bracket on the far-side.... your near-focus point would be aprox 3 1/2 meters for your closest acceptable focus... which is unfortunately about 8ft, 3ft beyond your point of foreground interest.

Grabbing a Zeiss 50mm that does stop down to f22, slightly shorter lens, gives slightly deeper DoF, and f16 gives aprox 6ft to infinity; f22, JUST on your limits, about 4.5ft to infinity.

Grabbing a pentacon 29mm (yup... I have bag of M42 primes to hand!), f22 gives about 20" to infinity... going the other way, 135mm Hanimex, gives about 40ft to infinity at f22.

So, without a hyperfocus scale, it's a tad more awkward, but; wider the lens, and the tighter the aperture, bigger the DoF range.

Principle remains, you set focus by scale, not by eye.... so into manual mode...

Worth noting that the 1/3 to 2/3 guide is only a guide; the ratio increases favouring the behind focus depth, the closer you approach infinity focus distance. In macro-photography, the DoF can be almost 50/50 front to rear, but on most cameras, at closest focus distance its usually close enough to 33/77 and increasing behind. And 5ft is reletively close focus for most lenses.

So to get your 5ft for-ground interest acceptably sharp, you are likely to need to draw back and focus quite a long way short, maybe less than ten feet, to be sure to get the near interest sharp, and still shop down f22 or tighter to make sure you get far distance infinity within the bracket.

And may be a case of taking a few test shots without the filter to get your best focus range by a bit of guestimation, focusing between near subject and infinity stop...

May be possible to lay a tape measure and pegs down a lawn, and take some test shots at different appatures and focas distances, and use that to create and calibrate a 'paper' hyperfocal scale to sticky-tape to the focus ring.

Its one feature of digital, I really do miss, TBH, and the big LCD display at the back seems to tell me loads and loads of really irrelevent infor, but nothing so remotely useful as the focus distance, let alone DoF around it! (Nikon take Note! This would be good!)

Alternativeley; adaptor mount and old manual focus primes with scale! (except that on a Nikon... you either get a mount that acts like an extension tube and wont allow infinity focus, or one that has a correction lens to allow infinity focus, but screws the focus scale calibration!)
 
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Thanks for the info Mike,my heads a shed now,lol.I 've got an app on the phone that when you put the f. and focal length in it tells you the focus distance, it's called "DOF Master " , that's what I've been using. When you put the info in its gives focus distance, near and far limit.
 
Thanks for the info Mike,my heads a shed now,lol.I 've got an app on the phone that when you put the f. and focal length in it tells you the focus distance, it's called "DOF Master " , that's what I've been using. When you put the info in its gives focus distance, near and far limit.

Thats it.

Work out the nearest thing you want in focus, double the distance. You then want an aperture for your lens that gives you that hyperfocal distance.(for landscapes usually anyway)
If using a tripod; focus at the hyperfocal distance, switch lens to manual(or use back button focussing), recompose image, re insert ND filter being careful not to knock camera or touch focus ring. Press shutter.

Think something like that should work.

As the focal length of your lens becomes longer you'll see the aperture needed will become smaller and smaller to the point where you can't get the range you may want. But as most landscapes are suited to wide angle lenses, usually not so much a problem.

Say you're focussing at 2m/6' (to get something 3' away in focus) on a 1.6 crop camera(Most canon DSLR's), with 18mm focal length you can use f8. (try it on your dofmaster app)

At 30mm you'd need f22 or smaller, much above 30mm and it becomes impossibly small apertures.

Not sure if that helps or not.
 
As the focal length of your lens becomes longer you'll see the aperture needed will become smaller and smaller to the point where you can't get the range you may want. But as most landscapes are suited to wide angle lenses, usually not so much a problem.Say you're focussing at 2m/6' (to get something 3' away in focus) on a 1.6 crop camera(Most canon DSLR's), with 18mm focal length you can use f8. (try it on your dofmaster app)

At 30mm you'd need f22 or smaller, much above 30mm and it becomes impossibly small apertures.

Not sure if that helps or not.

I do wish people could think beyond this... "I'm taking a landscape shot so I'll need an ultrawide and front to back DoF." Urgh.

If you simply must go for deep DoF there's an alternative to hyperfocal...

http://www.trenholm.org/hmmerk/DOFR.html
 
I do wish people could think beyond this... "I'm taking a landscape shot so I'll need an ultrawide and front to back DoF." Urgh.
That's not what i said though is it. Bad day at the office?

If you simply must go for deep DoF there's an alternative to hyperfocal...

http://www.trenholm.org/hmmerk/DOFR.html

Hands up all you landscape photographers who never use wide angle lenses and dont want the maximum DoF you can get for a given lens/aperture.

Nobody?
 
I've got an app on the phone that when you put the f. and focal length in it tells you the focus distance, it's called "DOF Master " , that's what I've been using. When you put the info in its gives focus distance, near and far limit.

That's very similar to the DoF scale Mike was talking about.

So, from the app you know the near and far limits for your lens at your f stop. If those cover the range you want to be acceptably sharp, great, if not, choose a smaller f number.

Once you have an f stop that gives you the range (the DoF) you want, just set the focus ring to the focus distance the app gives you, using the distance scale. No need to look through the viewfinder at all as long as you have your composition already.

Alternatively, if you have an item you want to focus on, which you know is at your hyper focal distance, can you not use focus zooming in live view? zoom in to that item in live view, and then manually focus on it. I'm not absolutely sure why you'd ever want to do this because if you know the item is at your hyper focal distance, you must know what that distance is, so can just set it on the focus dial as above, but it does work.

Modern Digi-Cam... you press shutter and peek at screen, you may be able to tell.... though no-where near as good as on old manual focus cameras that had Depth-Of-Field preview to stop the lens aperture down so you could see through the view-finder.... or better still, Hyperfocus scale on the lens!

Well, may I make a plea for not excluding slightly less mainstream "modern digicams"? I know this isn't relevant to the OP, but it might make sure someone else isn't misled into thinking DoF preview is a complete thing of the past :)

My Sony does have a DoF preview button, which does exactly what the old camera's did.

The difference is two-fold though;

1) Because the EVF (and live view) shows the image that will result from your exposure settings, pressing the preview button to see the DoF with your actual aperture setting does NOT make the viewfinder go dim. So you can see the image exactly as it will be; both as far as exposure AND DoF are concerned.

2) Instead of the DoF scale, you can get a visual indication of the DoF through a Sony viewfinder, much better than just a DoF preview where you have to try and see what is and isn't sharp unaided. Focus peaking puts a coloured line along every edge that's in focus. With the aperture wide open, that might be quite a narrow band, but as soon as you press the preview button, you can see exactly what is and isn't in focus. It's not far short of miraculous; you can actually turn the focus ring, and watch the DoF "sweep" across your image, getting closer or further away from you. See below; this shows it in live view, but it's exactly the same through the viewfinder :)

[YOUTUBE]sRquH3RpnHc[/YOUTUBE]

The real beauty of focus peaking combined with DoF preview is that you don't need to know any distances. You don't need to know the hyper focal distance, or the distance to the nearest and farthest things you want sharp - it's 100% visual. All you have to do is press the DoF preview button, then turn the focus ring until there's a red (or white, or yellow), line around both the nearest and furthest things. If you can't get red lines around both (i.e. your DoF is too narrow), you just set a smaller aperture and take a look at that instead. Simples!!
 
That's very similar to the DoF scale Mike was talking about.

So, from the app you know the near and far limits for your lens at your f stop. If those cover the range you want to be acceptably sharp, great, if not, choose a smaller f number.

Once you have an f stop that gives you the range (the DoF) you want, just set the focus ring to the focus distance the app gives you, using the distance scale. No need to look through the viewfinder at all as long as you have your composition already.

Alternatively, if you have an item you want to focus on, which you know is at your hyper focal distance, can you not use focus zooming in live view? zoom in to that item in live view, and then manually focus on it. I'm not absolutely sure why you'd ever want to do this because if you know the item is at your hyper focal distance, you must know what that distance is, so can just set it on the focus dial as above, but it does work.

Well, may I make a plea for not excluding slightly less mainstream "modern digicams"? I know this isn't relevant to the OP, but it might make sure someone else isn't misled into thinking DoF preview is a complete thing of the past :)

My Sony does have a DoF preview button, which does exactly what the old camera's did.

The difference is two-fold though;

1) Because the EVF (and live view) shows the image that will result from your exposure settings, pressing the preview button to see the DoF with your actual aperture setting does NOT make the viewfinder go dim. So you can see the image exactly as it will be; both as far as exposure AND DoF are concerned.

2) Instead of the DoF scale, you can get a visual indication of the DoF through a Sony viewfinder, much better than just a DoF preview where you have to try and see what is and isn't sharp unaided. Focus peaking puts a coloured line along every edge that's in focus. With the aperture wide open, that might be quite a narrow band, but as soon as you press the preview button, you can see exactly what is and isn't in focus. It's not far short of miraculous; you can actually turn the focus ring, and watch the DoF "sweep" across your image, getting closer or further away from you. See below; this shows it in live view, but it's exactly the same through the viewfinder :)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRquH3RpnHc">YouTube Link</a>

The real beauty of focus peaking combined with DoF preview is that you don't need to know any distances. You don't need to know the hyper focal distance, or the distance to the nearest and farthest things you want sharp - it's 100% visual. All you have to do is press the DoF preview button, then turn the focus ring until there's a red (or white, or yellow), line around both the nearest and furthest things. If you can't get red lines around both (i.e. your DoF is too narrow), you just set a smaller aperture and take a look at that instead. Simples!!

Cheers, Mark, I've always struggled with DOF, even though I was convinced it was easier that I made it. I have DOF Master but didn't realised you set the lens and f stop it displayed where you focused!! I'd like to spend some time on this if you have a moment over the weekend? I'm also looking at Dave's landscape blending technique, that I've been aware of for a while but never tried.

Sad as it seems this thread has made my day!

Cheers.
 
Yes no problem Andy! The beauty of my camera is that it shows you what's happening graphically, making it easier to understand. Obviously it doesn't actually behave any different to any other camera, but the fact you can see it happening makes it quite a good learning tool :)

My fees will be at "mates rates", so it won't even cost you as much as a full night of drinks!
 
Hyperfocal distance focusing is really easy. The key to it is the fact that the HFD is always exactly double the distance of the nearest subject you want sharp.

All you need is a few HFD numbers, eg from DoFmaster.com, at the focal lengths and apertures you're likely to use, and bearing in mind HFD focusing is impractical with anything except wide-angles, that's not many. I have them on a sticker inside the lens cap of my 17-40 lens, for 17mm, 24mm and 35mm, at f/5.6, f/11 and f/22. You can guess in-between settings accurately enough.

So, decide what the nearest subject is you want sharp, then double that distance visually and focus on something at that distance, eg with centre-point AF. Lock it.

Now estimate the distance focused on. There is no way of avoiding the need to estimate distance, but it will be quite close so not hard. You could read that distance off the focusing scale, though you might still be better off estimating it visually even assuming the scale is accurate (they're often not).

Look up that distance on your HFD table and set the appropriate aperture. Done.
 
That's not what i said though is it. Bad day at the office?



Hands up all you landscape photographers who never use wide angle lenses and dont want the maximum DoF you can get for a given lens/aperture.

Nobody?

My Hand's Up. :wave:
 
The much-maligned "Live View" is great for this...setup your camera on the tripod, compose the scene, use the method Hoppy suggests to determine the focus distance and then use "selective focus point" in Live view to focus on an object at the desired distance, once done switch to manual focus and all's set, no need to mess around with trying to recompose your shot:thumbs:

If the foreground is sooo close that you're still worried it will be OOF then just pick up your tripod and move it back a couple of feet but compose the same previous scene...you can then crop a little in processing for a tack sharp foreground

Simon
 
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Yes no problem Andy! The beauty of my camera is that it shows you what's happening graphically, making it easier to understand. Obviously it doesn't actually behave any different to any other camera, but the fact you can see it happening makes it quite a good learning tool :)

My fees will be at "mates rates", so it won't even cost you as much as a full night of drinks!

I'll stretch to half a shandy :)
 
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