Competitions ... Yes or no, why or why not?

Quicksnapper

Quicksnapper

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Been following the "Camera club" thread with interest as I'm in a club and on its committee. We're always keen to look at new ideas and modernise / improve what we do for our members.

But many of the folks who have posted on the thread have cited "too many competitions / being obsessed with competitions etc" as being a reason for not being in a club. So I just wondered why? Why not enter competitions? What is it about them that's so off putting / unacceptable / undesirable?

We have 12 per year, which is probably too many tbh. But ...

On the plus side, they encourage us to produce and show off our best work, promote the use of good pp skills, require precise presentation, encourage us to explore themes or techniques we may not have looked at before and generally try to get members to step a little outside their personal comfort zones and broaden their horizons.

On the minus side ... Some people aren't comfortable in a competitive setting, there's no tangible reward for going to the trouble of printing and mounting our best work to set against the cost, competition nights use up club time which might be more usefully used for other things such as tutorials etc and not everyone has faith in the views of judges.

But, overall, our competition nights are well attended and most people find them informative, useful and fun. Also, comps are run by charities, organisations, companies and sundry other entities, not just camera clubs. Do you enter those?

So ... Competitions ... Love them or hate them? Please give reasons .... Thank you for your views.
 
I think comps can be good. But some times the difficulty is in getting people to enter. If they see all the comps getting cleaned up by a few members it doesn't encourage them to enter. We have 7 that are judged by an external judge. We also have 4 which are judged by the members on the night.

Each of the 7 are split into a print and a projected image section so the cost of printing is not an issue. And there is a separate winner for each section on the night.

Out of a 27 week meeting season I don't think that 7 comps are too much. The rest of the meetings we have guest speakers or practical demos. I think its a fair balance.
 
There must be some element of personal traits here , but my viewpoint is simple. I view photography as art, and I don't go to an art gallery to rank painters and sculptors. Put another way, I don't see art as competitive or something that should be treated in that way.

There is a problem perhaps on whether you trust a judge, and perhaps experienced judges can see things far faster than I do; but it can take me 15 minutes of viewing to decide whether I think something is up to par (my par, not Martin's Parr :)) and I have a sneaking suspicion that a judge won't give that long to contemplatation, and may see only the obvious and miss the subtlties that really make a worthwhile image. I've also noticed that it is often the case that images that stand out and "grab" you don't hold up very well over a period of viewing against images that are more reflective in nature. So I mistrust the (assumed) judging methods.

The other big problem I see is that I was told on another forum by a very keen and experienced club photographer that there was a "house style" in the club circuit world, and images (if they are to do well) will more of less meet that style. I find this idea rather abhorrent as placing a straightjacket on creativity if you want to "get on" in competitions.

So, I hate them.
 
Quicksnapper said:
On the plus side, they encourage us to produce and show off our best work, promote the use of good pp skills, require precise presentation, encourage us to explore themes or techniques we may not have looked at before and generally try to get members to step a little outside their personal comfort zones and broaden their horizons.
Click to expand...

My experience is that they encourage people to create images to a formula which they know will please the judges.


Steve.
 
Actually, a bit of an aside as its not about competitions per se, but you do touch on it. For me, photography is a means of self expression, and my interest is firmly in the image and not the subject per se. Hence, I'm not happy about the whole idea of "stepping outside your comfort zone" because it smacks to me of changing the basic reason I use a camera, and effectively changing the nature of the hobby.

There are people who have argued that to really convey feeling/emotion in your images, you have to have some feeling for your subject. OK, actors can convey emotions that they do not feel, but I'd rather be truthful in my images to what I felt. So, I don't move unless and until something captures my attention, rather than being forced to photograph it.

I have found that my best images have come from my looking carefully, and I've always said that one of the great problems photographers face is that they see what they expect to see, not what is there. Hence, not only the telegraph poles growing out of heads (because they see the person, not the background) but the corollary of that - when they don't expect to see something worth photographing, they miss it. I therefore don't like the idea of going out looking for a particular subject because that's what a coming competition requires; it seems to me that it must act as a blinker. Others may have a more rounded vision, but it would be counter productive for me.
 
I never take an image with a competition in mind. I take all of my stuff for myself and no one else with no thought to what i might do with it. I enter what I like not what I think a judge wants to see. If he/she likes it great, if not then I dont lose any sleep over it.

I don't have a house style, I have my style, like it loathe it I don't care.

I only enter the comps I'm interested in and so far have done quite well with my nonconformist view.
 
As a matter of interest, why? What do you get out of it, and what sort of competition appeals to you? I'm curious.
 
I'm trying to improve as a photographer. It's no use asking friends and family, they will just say "great pic".

This way at least I get an honest unbiased view. I accept that some judges have a preference for certain types of images but even if I knew what that was it wouldn't change my choice for that particular comp.

I enter the open comps, landscape, natural history and black and white. Creative, macro I don't bother with.

The club enters inter club and national comps. My pics are available for them to use if they so choose, which they have done, and again they have done reasonably well. But again that's not going to change my life is it just because some judge thinks its pretty decent.

I joined the club to meet like minded photographers with similar interests. I feel that as a result I have improved as a photographer, others may disagree. Again its my perception of my photography that matters.

Lastly I have made some new friends and hopefully helped others by passing on my limited experience where I can.
 
I think competitions are a good thing, and are often a good measure of whether you are improving or not as a photographer. Photographic Club competitions are great as they often provide feedback, or will at least provide it if asked. As long as you are not governed by the style in which you think the competition is after, and instead take the pictures you want to take, I think they can only be a good thing.
 
As one of those members who cited competition obsessed clubs, as being the primary reason that had put me off from joining a camera club, for many years, I'm happy to provide my reasoning.

Firstly, I have three long established clubs local to me. All three have web-sites, so it was easy to view their programme of activities. One was completely competition based, and stated that members were expected to enter the competitions, and submit their work to outside judges. No thank you.

The other two read competition, competition, competition, with the odd talk fitted in here and there. No thank you.

As you may recall from the other thread, last September I found a relatively new club (now in its third year), and joined this, because it had only two competitions throughout the club meeting season of September to May.

The rest of meetings being taken up with workshops, tutorials, talks, and finally a field trip. In fact more about amateur photography than competing with each other.

To be supportive as member, I entered the first competition (mono print), and surprisingly found myself in the top 7 of 44 entries. More importantly, I did learn from the judges comments. However, I get much more enjoyment out of the other non competition meetings, although I will support the second and last competition.

I would not object if they introduced a third competition, say midway through the meeting programme, because that would still leave competition evenings in the minority.

Any more than that, and I would leave, as I'm sure others would.

I see amateur photography as a hobby, not a competitive sport.

It can be even more rewarding to share the interest with like minded people, and I don't see the need to compete against them.

I spent several years racing sailing dinghies, a very competitive sport, which I thoroughly enjoyed. I don't see photography in the same way.

Sailing, like athletics, for example, have a defined win or lose criteria. The first one to cross the finishing line is the winner, there is no subjective element to it.

The judging of photographic images is very subjective, and I challenge anybody to argue the fact that a different judge on a different night, would likely mark the same image differently.

This makes the whole competition thing far too subjective.

Yes, I am aware that judges go on 'judges courses', and that there is a basic set of rules that they learn to apply, but at the end of the day, its is still their own subjective assessment that will decide.

Some people can look at a pile of old bicycle frames, and rusty buckets welded together to create some abstract design, and call it a work of art. Others, like me would call it a pile of junk.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and what is one man's artistic masterpiece, is another man's pile of junk.

Ok, the bicycles and rusty buckets is an extreme example, but the point I am making is that choosing a winner in a photography competition, is based purely upon a subjective assessment. There is no defined finishing line to be crossed.

Competitions do have their place in camera clubs, because there are people who enjoy them, but to me they can't be taken too seriously, because they are so subjective. Good fun, in moderation, but that's all.

Too many, and people like me, and many others who said as much in the other thread, would be put off from joining.

With your club (quicksnapper) and its 12 competitions, I wouldn't have given it a second glance.

However, that's just my personal opinion.

Dave
 
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StephenM said:
There must be some element of personal traits here , but my viewpoint is simple. I view photography as art, and I don't go to an art gallery to rank painters and sculptors. Put another way, I don't see art as competitive or something that should be treated in that way.

There is a problem perhaps on whether you trust a judge, and perhaps experienced judges can see things far faster than I do; but it can take me 15 minutes of viewing to decide whether I think something is up to par (my par, not Martin's Parr :)) and I have a sneaking suspicion that a judge won't give that long to contemplatation, and may see only the obvious and miss the subtlties that really make a worthwhile image. I've also noticed that it is often the case that images that stand out and "grab" you don't hold up very well over a period of viewing against images that are more reflective in nature. So I mistrust the (assumed) judging methods.

The other big problem I see is that I was told on another forum by a very keen and experienced club photographer that there was a "house style" in the club circuit world, and images (if they are to do well) will more of less meet that style. I find this idea rather abhorrent as placing a straightjacket on creativity if you want to "get on" in competitions.

So, I hate them.
Click to expand...

The temptation does seem to be to go one direction or the other, either pic out the most striking image(a lot of large scale competitions are very guilty of this for me) or stick to very rigid idea's of whats acceptable.

Personally I think a more interesting route for many camera clubs might be to run exhibitions or operate a stall at a market, people actually putting money down for a photograph are likely to pay a good deal of attention to it and bring a laymen's judgement into it.
 
Thank you all for your responses so far. They make very interesting reading and I may get my fellow committee members to have a look at them to see if our competition schedule needs to be reviewed. Dave, I look forward to your comments later but welcome more from anyone else. Thanks again. Hope to see you all again later.
 
A few thoughts then...

Background to my opinions...

I am HIGHLY competitive and in joining my first club all I wanted to do was WIN

It took a few months to figure out what the others like, how they marked, and to assess the other members as competition, then in my 2nd year I entered with a vengeance (10 comps). I actually found it quite obsessive in nature as I won the 1st comp and then set out to win every other one too!!! And I won 9, I was sooooo annoyed at the 10th :(

Not only did i win POTY but also B&W print of the year, Colour print of the year, Projected image of the year and something else which I cannot recall. The following year I was just too busy but felt I'd proven myself anyway, so I backed off a bit and only won a couple. I became a committee member as the Comp Sec.

The next year a very talented chap joined the club, we became pals and did lots of shoots together, he absorbed knowledge like a sponge from me but he was also great at PP (my weakest point). The 3rd year he too entered comps and starting winning. The 4th year we set out to beat each other and along the way everyone else, then the extreme nature of it became apparent when we both started traveling further and further to get winning shots; and he had more time/money to go farther

What really made me LOL was one comp about 'Water' - he traveled to Scotland for 4 days to shoot a lake for it whereas I was only planning on going as far as the Lake District for a day. At this point I thought 'Sod it' its getting silly. On the day of the comp however I decided to shoot a macro image of water pouring into a glass in my kitchen sink - and it won !!! He was pee'd off I just pee'd myself

I then looked at it from the other members' viewpoint and found this...

Pro comps:

  1. they give you an aim to shoot
  2. you sometimes have to shoot something you wouldn't normally bother with, so you may have to push yourself and learn something new
  3. if you are new you see some cracking images to inspire you on the comp night, and some older members work which is rubbish and that can add confidence
  4. winning is a good feeling, as is doing better than your mate or even yourself in previous comps

Cons:

  1. losing sucks
  2. always losing sucks most
  3. most often there is no time to crit images so you don't learn why you didn't win or how to improve your own shot
  4. most togs can't mark for tuppence, and give highest marks to 'pretty' shots or subjects they like & understand
  5. the formula of winning reduces the chances of creativity
  6. retired folk with money stand the best chance of being able to get a cracking shot, this penalises the workers and the very young who don't drive
  7. its expensive to enter comps yet you win nothing of monetary value
  8. on trips out as a club, some members shooting for a comp will hide what they are doing to avoid helping their competition - its divisive
  9. some people have a style to their photos which is easy to recognise, then their mates vote for them while the jealous ones or people they that don't like them vote against
  10. it takes FAR too much time in the club year that teaches/discusses NOTHING to do with photography
  11. it can be very annoying & time consuming for the Comp Sec to organise and with no thanks or appreciation
  12. people who don't like comps may avoid joining your club
  13. people who constantly do badly stop entering, may become disillusioned and stop coming to the club (I've known some completely give up photography as a result of getting depressed by losing all the time)

They are the most obvious observations of mine from being a committee member (inc. Comp Sec.) for a number of years and largely why I eventually stopped entering, resigned from the committee and left the club

For my new club (which i was asked to help steer) I made it clear we should NOT be having competitions, at least initially, but that if in time people wanted them we'd obviously look at how best to introduce them. A recent poll we did had 19 to 2 AGAINST competitions. ALL of those extra nights are now taken up by discussing, teaching & sharing photography; and that I feel is why we're grown so fast and sucked many members from the older clubs around us

Last week we had an article published in the local rag about us gaining our 50th member within 10 months of starting the club, I am aware of another 5-6 asking about joining since last week !!! :)

Dave
 
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The club I attend has 5 competitions a year, which is enough for me. Actually, I've not entered for a while as I simply aren't producing enough these days.

In terms of content, then i guess that yes there is very much a certain aesthetic, but that's unsurprising given the demographic / age of membership. You're not going to get much cutting edge fine art from working/middle class amateur photographers in their 60's. It's more likely to be chocolate box landscapes, portraits, still life, church interiors, some wildlife, normally executed to a very good standard.

That said, as someone of a different age group (30's), my own work of urbex and grotty industrial and urban landscapes has done very well in competitions. And a 16 year old girl who was a member for a few years produced some fabulous composites and creative portraits of hereself and her firends that were getting first and second places regularly. (She's now studying for a photography degree at Blackpool College). Most judges are competent enough to know a good image when they see it!
 
DG Phototraining said:
I am HIGHLY competitive and in joining my first club all I wanted to do was WIN
Click to expand...

"I am so not competitive. In fact, I am the least competitive. So I win." - Peter Griffin.

I mentioned earlier that the best part of the last club I joined was the critique sessions where anyone could say what they thought about your pictures and you could explain things and answer questions. I found the multiple opinions of the club members much more valuable than the single opinion of a judge.

The problem with judges is that it is merely opinion and a superb image of a subject they don't care for or a technique they don't like doesn't stand as much chance as an inferior image of something they like.

Also, most judges I have come across seem to think they have to find a fault or a way to improve everything presented to them.

I did see one judge a few years ago who I thought was very good. He made a point about pointing out something good about everyone's pictures.

I have been a member of two clubs over the last ten years, one of which was started by may father thirty years ago. As a film user, I am obviously in the minority and these clubs have too much computer chatter for me. That and the obsession with competitions led me to realise that I was primarily going for the cup of tea and a biscuit at half time! I haven't been to a club for about three years now.


Steve.
 
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wow.... approach them as fun and they area great... (that doesnt mean dont take serious or dont make a proper effort)

approach them like this thread does and they are far too much trouble..

sorry to be simplistic..but ?
 
From my several years' experience they don't though Kip - many take them very seriously indeed, and you have to be a strange creature to think its 'fun' to come last all the time :D

An individual judge MUST find good before anything they comment on that is poor, I totally agree with that Steve, while a group judging (even with no knowledge of how to judge) does usually gives the best image the winning marks - so that's good

On our comp nights there was rarely enough time to comment on images when marked by the members themselves - which is bad; and some of the external judges were frankly shocking (we even reported a couple back to the YPU for being so bad)

Whether fun or not its a surprising amount of work for the Comp Sec to organise it all - which is why we had a large number of different Comp Secs as most resigned after one year :D

Dave
 
Hope you don't mind that I've added my response into your post Dave. Cuts down on the typing. :)

DG Phototraining said:
A few thoughts then...

Background to my opinions...

I am HIGHLY competitive and in joining my first club all I wanted to do was WIN

It took a few months to figure out what the others like, how they marked, and to assess the other members as competition, then in my 2nd year I entered with a vengeance (10 comps). I actually found it quite obsessive in nature as I won the 1st comp and then set out to win every other one too!!! And I won 9, I was sooooo annoyed at the 10th :(

Not only did i win POTY but also B&W print of the year, Colour print of the year, Projected image of the year and something else which I cannot recall. The following year I was just too busy but felt I'd proven myself anyway, so I backed off a bit and only won a couple. I became a committee member as the Comp Sec.

The next year a very talented chap joined the club, we became pals and did lots of shoots together, he absorbed knowledge like a sponge from me but he was also great at PP (my weakest point). The 3rd year he too entered comps and starting winning. The 4th year we set out to beat each other and along the way everyone else, then the extreme nature of it became apparent when we both started traveling further and further to get winning shots; and he had more time/money to go farther

What really made me LOL was one comp about 'Water' - he traveled to Scotland for 4 days to shoot a lake for it whereas I was only planning on going as far as the Lake District for a day. At this point I thought 'Sod it' its getting silly. On the day of the comp however I decided to shoot a macro image of water pouring into a glass in my kitchen sink - and it won !!! He was pee'd off I just pee'd myself

I then looked at it from the other members' viewpoint and found this...

Pro comps:

  1. they give you an aim to shoot
  2. you sometimes have to shoot something you wouldn't normally bother with, so you may have to push yourself and learn something new
  3. if you are new you see some cracking images to inspire you on the comp night, and some older members work which is rubbish and that can add confidence
  4. winning is a good feeling, as is doing better than your mate or even yourself in previous comps
1. I agree but I never shoot specifically for a comp.
2. I don't enter the comps that I have no interest in. That's not to say I won't
try something new at some point.
3. I agree. Its nice to see other photographers ideas.
4. I don't worry about whether I win or not. I'm more interested in the judges
comments so that I can get better.
Cons:

  1. losing sucks
  2. always losing sucks most
  3. most often there is no time to crit images so you don't learn why you didn't win or how to improve your own shot
  4. most togs can't mark for tuppence, and give highest marks to 'pretty' shots or subjects they like & understand
  5. the formula of winning reduces the chances of creativity
  6. retired folk with money stand the best chance of being able to get a cracking shot, this penalises the workers and the very young who don't drive
  7. its expensive to enter comps yet you win nothing of monetary value
  8. on trips out as a club, some members shooting for a comp will hide what they are doing to avoid helping their competition - its divisive
  9. some people have a style to their photos which is easy to recognise, then their mates vote for them while the jealous ones or people they that don't like them vote against
  10. it takes FAR too much time in the club year that teaches/discusses NOTHING to do with photography
  11. it can be very annoying & time consuming for the Comp Sec to organise and with no thanks or appreciation
  12. people who don't like comps may avoid joining your club
  13. people who constantly do badly stop entering, may become disillusioned and stop coming to the club (I've known some completely give up photography as a result of getting depressed by losing all the time)
1. Doesn't bother me.
2. Ditto above.
3. Not in my experience with the judges we have had. I should add here that the prints and files that will be projected are sent the the judge several weeks before the judging night so they have the opportunity to compile any comments about them.
4. Don't agree with that. In the mini comps that get marked by the members I would wager that out of the top 4 images 75% would have been in that position if marked externally.
5. Yes if you get hung up on just taking specifically for comps. I take for myself
only, never with the idea "this will make a good comp entry".
6. A good image is a good image irrespective of where its taken. We have those who spend a lot of money going to places. Majority of top three places are taken in the UK.
7. Each comp is split into print and projected image to recognise that some cannot afford to produce lots of prints. Projected is free.
8. Can't comment because I've never been. Probably correct given human nature.
9. That's true but our comps are judged by a judge from another area and they won't see enough of the photographers work to recognise it.
10. I dont think that 7 weeks out of a 27 week season isn excessive and leaves plenty of time for other subjects, whatever they are.
11. Very true and one of the biggest issues in our club is that we struggle for committee members because the majority want to sit on their asses.
12. Fair point. But all the clubs within 60 miles have a very similar format to ours.
13. This has come up in discussion several times and it is difficult to know how to resolve it. We have managed to increase out comp entry in the last three years so something must be going ok.

They are the most obvious observations of mine from being a committee member (inc. Comp Sec.) for a number of years and largely why I eventually stopped entering, resigned from the committee and left the club

For my new club (which i was asked to help steer) I made it clear we should NOT be having competitions, at least initially, but that if in time people wanted them we'd obviously look at how best to introduce them. A recent poll we did had 19 to 2 AGAINST competitions. ALL of those extra nights are now taken up by discussing, teaching & sharing photography; and that I feel is why we're grown so fast and sucked many members from the older clubs around us

Last week we had an article published in the local rag about us gaining our 50th member within 10 months of starting the club, I am aware of another 5-6 asking about joining since last week !!! :)

Dave
Click to expand...

It is obvious from all the posts on the topic of camera clubs and competitions that there is no "one size fits all" camera club. We have had critique nights at ours when members bring prints and the judges that we have in the club comment on them. I don't find it constructive at all. In my experience they say something like "nice pic, I'd give that 17 but if you did this in Photoshop I'd give it 19". As soon as I hear the word Photoshop I switch off. I am very much of the get it right in the camera school and try and do the absolute minimum in PP. To be honest I'd rather rub my ass with a rough brick than spend hours doing PP.

Two camera clubs have gone by the wayside over the past 20 years. I used to be a member of both of them years ago but they had no structure and just gradually dissolved.

That you have started a club which like minded individuals can join is great. Ultimately we are all after the same thing. To enjoy our photography in whatever style we so choose. Having that choice is great and you should fee round that your efforts have been so successful.

Gaz
 
Why not, competition is healthy. Just keep things in context, keep it fun and don't get too serious. Quite like the idea myself.
 
It is very difficult, if not impossible, for any club, whatever its purpose, to please all of the people all the time, and the best they can hope for is to please most of the people most of the time.

However, from what I have seen of clubs local to me, they have programmes designed only to appeal to competition minded amateur photographers, offering very little else that encompasses what amateur photography has to offer. For this reason, and this reason alone, I did not, and would not join them.

Purely out of interest, I looked at the web-sites of quite a few camera clubs, around the country, and the overriding theme was one of competitions, so not something limited to the clubs in my local area.

I was very fortunate to find another club, albeit not strictly local, where the programme was more about amateur photography, and much less about competitions. I joined and am thoroughly enjoying the experience.

A couple of weeks ago, a lady photographer joined us, who had been along to one of my local clubs, but left. Her reason for leaving, too many competitions and little else.

So, if you live in the South Suffolk area, and see competition photography as the 'be all, and end all' of amateur photography, then you are well catered for, as all three local clubs offer this to the extreme.

If you are like me, and take a much broader view of amateur photography, and how a club should cater for this in their programme, then like me, you will have to search long and hard to find a club with that approach.

It does seem to be a characteristic of long established camera clubs, that they are all very heavily competition based, whereas the 'new boys on the block', like Dave's club, and the one that I found, have broken out of the time warp, and are attracting new members at a good rate. Is there a moral to this story?, I'm convinced there is.

BTW, this is not some young photographer talking, but a 71 year old photography enthusiast, who thinks much younger than his years portray.

Dave
 
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As someone who is both a camera club judge and club member, I have to agree with some of the above points. Competitions are OK if it is just a fun event. Sadly many people seem to think that if they do well in competitions, they must be a 'good' photographer. As I see it, there is a general formula, or list of things to avoid if you want to win a competition. Judging is subjective, so you cannot guarantee success but you can hone your entry to give it a good chance. If winning is the reason you take photographs, that's fine. Sadly many clubs fail to offer the chance for the photographer to present their work,talk about it and then get a discussion going about it with other members. My wife and I often produce images which we describe as 'not for competition' but which we like and would like to share. In my opinion competitions stifle creativity, put people off of showing their work or even joining a club. So I personally would like to see just one or two a year and use the other evenings more productively.
Cuffy
 
Cuffy, your comments are like a breath of fresh air. :)

Coming from a camera club judge they give hope of a change in attitudes among committee members.

A lot amateur photographers enjoy the competition, and in fairness, should be catered for. Conversely a lot of amateurs are not competition minded, and these too should be catered for.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of clubs major on competitions, which clearly costs them in terms of potential members. Perhaps more especially young members and novice members, who want to learn how to use their camera, to understand its complexities, to learn about lighting, how to capture a good picture, how to use post capture processing, etc.

If they join a club, unless its like Dave' or my club, most of what they see is a endless round of competitions.

So, I would say to the old 'die hard' committee members, have your competitions if you must, but do so in moderation, offer a more diverse programme of activity, and attract a more diverse membership. That way, you will have left the 'time warp' and embraced 21st century amateur photography.

It will probably fall upon 'deaf ears', and the historic "we have always done it this way, and will continue to do so" attitude will prevail, but we can at least hope that change might come one day.

Dave
 
DaveS2 said:
Cuffy, your comments are like a breath of fresh air. :)

Coming from a camera club judge they give hope of a change in attitudes among committee members.

A lot amateur photographers enjoy the competition, and in fairness, should be catered for. Conversely a lot of amateurs are not competition minded, and these too should be catered for.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of clubs major on competitions, which clearly costs them in terms of potential members. Perhaps more especially young members and novice members, who want to learn how to use their camera, to understand its complexities, to learn about lighting, how to capture a good picture, how to use post capture processing, etc.

If they join a club, unless its like Dave' or my club, most of what they see is a endless round of competitions.

So, I would say to the old 'die hard' committee members, have your competitions if you must, but do so in moderation, offer a more diverse programme of activity, and attract a more diverse membership. That way, you will have left the 'time warp' and embraced 21st century amateur photography.

It will probably fall upon 'deaf ears', and the historic "we have always done it this way, and will continue to do so" attitude will prevail, but we can at least hope that change might come one day.

Dave
Click to expand...

Well if it's so bad, surely a group of like minded individuals can create a new club under the positive ways that you would like? :D Would that not be an easy way to make the change?
 
kev2010 said:
Well if it's so bad, surely a group of like minded individuals can create a new club under the positive ways that you would like? :D Would that not be an easy way to make the change?
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Good point. If you don't like it, join or create a club that suits you, as Dave has done. If some clubs want to take competition work seriously then that's fine and to me if a judge thinks its just a bit of fun then perhaps he should point out to any club he judges at that he won't be taking their efforts too seriously.

As I've said before, no club is a catch all for everyone but clubs can be changed with sensible suggestions and reasoning but I would hate to see ours change to a no comp group.
 
kev2010 said:
Well if it's so bad, surely a group of like minded individuals can create a new club under the positive ways that you would like? :D Would that not be an easy way to make the change?
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Dave (DG) has already done just that Kev, and has already attracted more members than a lot other clubs can claim to have.

I don't need to do it, as I was able to find a club that wasn't obsessed with competitions, at the expense of so much more that amateur photography has to offer.

Just a pity that it wasn't one of the three in my local area, but the drive is very worth while.

The issue for me, and others, is not the competition element within a club, its just the excessive amount of them.

Dave
 
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Daryl said:
out of interest are all clubs held in Village halls and such like? Any held in a Event room above a pub? A beer during the break time is much nicer the tea and short breads
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Ours are held in an event room at a social club, the bar takings from the 50 odd members of the club who turn up must probably account for a good percentage of the weekly total!

(Not that they drink huge amounts, its just that there's normally only 2 other people in......)
 
DaveS2 said:
Dave (DG) has already done just that Kev, and has already attracted more members than a lot other clubs can claim to have.

I don't need to do it, as I was able to find a club that wasn't obsessed with competitions, at the expense of so much more that amateur photography has to offer.

Just a pity that it wasn't one of the three in my local area, but the drive is very worth while.

The issue for me, and others, is not the competition element within a club, its just the excessive amount of them.

Dave
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I was not being critical. Just an observation.
 
Our club is held in a St Johns Ambulance hall, which is a very comfortable venue, but as such it has to be tea & biscuits.

That said, although I enjoy a pint of bitter (don't do yuppy lager ;)), and a glass of Malt, I and many of our members, have to drive to the club.

I'm not one of those people who will say I'll just have a pint, or maybe two, and then drive. If I drive, I don't drink, and if I drink, I don't drive, but then that's me.

Then again, if the meetings were held in a pub, I would still go, but leave the alcohol to those that are prepared to drink and drive, or those that can walk there.

Dave
 
Thanks again for your continued inputs to this thread. I think I'm going to send the link to my fellow committee members of my club and see what they think. Love 'em or hate 'em, I think some form of competition encourages our members to push their personal boundaries a bit and I'm all in favour of that, because it's really only by trying new things that we grow and develop our skills. I fully accept that, for many, photography is a personal thing not a competitive thing and that's absolutely fair enough. But there's nothing wrong with getting some constructive feedback on our efforts. Maybe 12 comps per year are a few too many, though!

All the best to you all .... Enjoy your hobby in your own ways .... I know I do!

Sara x
 
KIPAX said:
wow.... approach them as fun and they area great... (that doesnt mean dont take serious or dont make a proper effort)

approach them like this thread does and they are far too much trouble..

sorry to be simplistic..but ?
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Exactly.

I enter club competitions. Sometimes I win, sometimes I don't. I never, ever feel like leaving the club or not taking anymore photographs because of what someone else thinks of my work though because it's just an opinion and a bit of fun.
 
As I said:

"The issue for me, and others, is not the competition element within a club, its just the excessive amount of them."

I joined my club, because unlike those in my local area, it had just two competition evenings.

To support the club as a member should do, I entered the first competition (the first ever for me). It was interesting both from listening to what the judge said about each of the 44 entries, and looking at others work

The external judge, a lady, highlighted the positives in every image, as well as the negatives. She made a constructive comment on my image, regarding a particular area of highlight that would benefit from a bit of light treatment with the 'Burn' tool. She was absolutely right, and I proved this when I got home.

The image she chose as the winner, I thought was the right choice, but not the second and third placed images. Here's that subjective thing again.

Had it been a different judge, I'm sure the markings would have been different. Not because he or she was better or less qualified, but because it is influenced but the subjective nature of the process.

So, as far as I'm concerned the competition thing should be treated as a bit fun, hopefully accompanied by some constructive feedback. I'm not saying you shouldn't approach it with the intention of getting some positive feedback, but win or lose, don't take it too seriously, just enjoy it.

That said, you can have too much of a good thing, and too much is the reason I avoided my local clubs.

I will enter the second of the two competitions, if only to be supportive of the club, and having only two competition evenings, puts this club in a different league to my three local clubs, in terms my enjoyment as a member.

Dave
 
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I'm not sure this the right thread for this but I'll put my two p'ennorth in anyway and I refer specifically to this forum and 52 challenge which I and I'm sure some of you are doing.

It regards critism of pictures submitted. I am in week four and am coming to terms with the fact that with so many people there an awful ot of opinions and I would think that photo competitions are a bit of a change in that there are only a few judges and those judges are more likely to pass comment of what is good about your photographs compared with the other entries. I would presume they would be unlikely to intimate on what they would have liked to have seen but only judge on what they thought was the best picture. Having said the above, I have no problem with the comments on the Challenge 52 and I have already learned a lot and for my own part I only comment on others pictures if I have something relevant to say.

I have never been in a photographic club and probably never will (there aren't any here that I know of), I would be mortified to be asked to be a judge in a club comp. I look at pictures in, say, Wildlife Photographer of the Year and wonder how the judges pick a winner from all the fantastic entries. With no technical differences to help since all the photographers need no help with technicalities, the judging must come down to personal, subjective, opinion. In other words appears it is a question of "do you feel lucky, well, do you?"
 
Daryl said:
out of interest are all clubs held in Village halls and such like? Any held in a Event room above a pub? A beer during the break time is much nicer the tea and short breads
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Come on Daryl - get real - of COURSE we meet in a pub

Each night is a 5-pinter at least - you should attend matey, you'd love it :)

And no, I don't drive there lol

Dave
 
It'll always be a case of different strokes for different folks - some people enjoy the competitive element and some don't.

Personally I gave up on the local club because of the high proportion of competitive events - both within the club and external battles (their word) with other local clubs - just doesn't suit me (but completely understand that others enjoy this).

I can understand the use of competitions as a means of improving photography - but does this always need a competitive basis - surely well thought out constructive critique is more valuable for this purpose when it's applied to an image looked at in isolation rather than as a basis of deciding whether image A is "better" than image B.
 
F
Krisstiffer said:
It'll always be a case of different strokes for different folks - some people enjoy the competitive element and some don't.

Personally I gave up on the local club because of the high proportion of competitive events - both within the club and external battles (their word) with other local clubs - just doesn't suit me (but completely understand that others enjoy this).

I can understand the use of competitions as a means of improving photography - but does this always need a competitive basis - surely well thought out constructive critique is more valuable for this purpose when it's applied to an image looked at in isolation rather than as a basis of deciding whether image A is "better" than image B.
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Fair point Chris but where do you get constructive critique from?
 
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