Come again?

[PMN]

It is hardly being forced on us though is it

Of course it is. If I can't buy bacon or booze in a shop in the UK because of a religious belief that isn't native to where I've grown up then it's being forced on me, or at the very least it's affecting how I can do things. That's wrong, plain and simple.

Have you travelled much, Matt? Have you found yourself in the middle of countries on the opposite side of the world with completely different beliefs and cultures to those you're used to?

As for the nuts on flights analogy, that's utterly ridiculous. The last place you want a medical emergency is 7 miles in the air 1000 miles away from land, how you can possibly compare them is completely beyond me.

 

[Pookeyhead]

It is hardly being forced on us though is it,

I don't recall being polled for my opinion before a major retailer decided it would be OK to inconvenience my busy working life through waiting while they swap cashiers.

 

[Martyn D]

Country is turning into a joke, she should be disciplined and if she pulls the 'I'm not allowed by my religious beliefs' card then the supervisor who put her on the till should be disciplined.... How about if a Christian refused to serve a gay man as it's against his/her beliefs!...a gay couple from our village were refused entry to a guesthouse as the owner said it was against their beliefs, what happened.... The guesthouse owner was fined...one rule for one....what a joke!

 

[Pookeyhead]

Country is turning into a joke, she should be disciplined and if she pulls the 'I'm not allowed by my religious beliefs' card then the supervisor who put her on the till should be disciplined.... How about if a Christian refused to serve a gay man as it's against his/her beliefs!...a gay couple from our village were refused entry to a guesthouse as the owner said it was against their beliefs, what happened.... The guesthouse owner was fined...one rule for one....what a joke!

Exactly. Hypocritical BS this.

 

[MWHCVT]

Of course it is. If I can't buy bacon or booze in a shop in the UK because of a religious belief that isn't native to where I've grown up then it's being forced on me, or at the very least it's affecting how I can do things. That's wrong, plain and simple.

Have you travelled much, Matt? have you found yourself in the middle of countries on the opposite side of the world with completely different beliefs and cultures to those you're used to?

As for the nuts on flights analogy, that's utterly ridiculous. The last place you want a medical emergency is 7 miles in the air 1000 miles away from land, how you can possibly compare them is completely beyond me.

I have travelled though not far an wide, I honestly find it hysterical that this is getting as much press as it is, honestly all that this is allowing is for people to not be placed in a situation where their religious beliefs are not compromised I personally do feel that is too much to ask, we all want the right to live our lives within the law...

I don't recall being polled for my opinion before a major retailer decided it would be OK to inconvenience my busy working life through waiting while they swap cashiers.

You know the answer David, buy shares in the company and then voice your concerns at the AGM the reality is however as I pointed out in my very first post that this policy would have come into existence to ensure that the company cannot face litigation for making someone handle products that are against there religion...I bet if we had access to the company handbook there would also be policy in there accounting for vegetarians and vegans not to have to handle products against there beliefs etc...

Ultimately for me it a case of live and let live within the law

 

[PMN]

all that this is allowing is for people to not be placed in a situation where their religious beliefs are not compromised

I'd never walk into a random restaurant in Dubai and demand to be served alcohol, you can drink in certain places like that but not everywhere so out of respect for their culture I'd go drink somewhere appropriate. Please explain to me why it's unreasonable for that to be reciprocated here.

Actually I'll answer that for you - it isn't unreasonable to expect that. I genuinely detest all this ultra-PC nonsense, it causes far more problems than it solves.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Ultimately for me it a case of live and let live within the law

You're naive Matthew.

No one's proposing that Muslims can't be Muslims.. least of all me. We're proposing that we, as non Muslims (and in my case... as utterly non-religious) shouldn't be made to be inconvenienced by someone else's religious beliefs. This is not a Muslim country, and quite frankly... nothing should get in between me, and beer I feel the same about Christianity too. If that gets in my way somehow, that can **** right off too! Keep your religions to yourselves. thanks.

Any theologians in here? Is there even anything in the Quran saying that someone can't swipe a bottle of Theakstons Old Peculiar in front of a barcode scanner? I bet there isn't.

Pathetic.

 

[Steve Smith]

I don't recall being polled for my opinion before a major retailer decided it would be OK to inconvenience my busy working life through waiting while they swap cashiers.

That's because you weren't.

The shop can do what they like. Equally, you can choose to shop there or somewhere else. If enough people choose to shop somewhere else, they will either change their policy or go out of business.


Steve.

 

[Cg_Girl]

I completely disagree. When I'm in Islamic countries (which I am occasionally) I respect their laws and cultures, I'd never dream of forcing my beliefs on them in their own land and I don't consider it unreasonable to expect visitors to the UK to reciprocate that respect.

This totally sums it up for me......... If any of us goes to another country i am pretty sure we all follow their cultures, it should be the same here but it's not.... It seems WE have to change everything for others and their cultures

 

[Pookeyhead]

That's because you weren't.

The shop can do what they like. Equally, you can choose to shop there or somewhere else. If enough people choose to shop somewhere else, they will either change their policy or go out of business.


Steve.

You're so missing the point. In fact... you're not even close... in fact, you're flying away from the point so far, and so fast it's now red shifted, and no longer even looks like the point. I'm running out of analogies to suggest how far from the point you really are.

 

[Steve Smith]

And your point is?...


Steve.

 

[MWHCVT]

Last time I looked however bacon butties were not integral to our cultural beliefs...although I do love them like they were I really don't want to live in a country that cannot tolerate and accommodate other religions and cultures so long as they remain within the laws of the country

I've been unfortunate enough in life to deal with some of the morons of the likes of EDL et al the kind of morons that will go out and beat the hell out of a old Indian man at lunch time and then on the way home stop at the local curry house for dinner

I suspect however that this is a thread that is destined to polarise opinion

 

[PMN]

I really don't want to live in a country that cannot tolerate and accommodate other religions and cultures

It isn't very often I openly say this to anyone but you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and your ignorance astounds me. There are so many countries that are almost entirely intolerant of other cultures and religions, to say you don't want to live in a country that can't tolerate or accommodate others as a UK resident is so naive it's untrue.

Go travel, Matt. You need educating.

 

[MWHCVT]

It isn't very often I openly say this to anyone but you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and your ignorance astounds me. There are so many countries that are almost entirely intolerant of other cultures and religions, to say you don't want to live in a country that can't tolerate or accommodate others as a UK resident is so naive it's untrue.

Go travel, Matt. You need educating.

Paul why on earth would I travel to countries that cannot tolerate other religions, there are many places that I'd like to visit in my life some of those are Muslim counties and in those I would of course respect the beliefs and laws of those countries...this country however is more open/tolerant and that can only be a good thing...just because a country is intolerant does that mean we should mirror that country in our own actions...

 

[PMN]

Paul why on earth would I travel to countries that cannot tolerate other religions

Because it opens your mind and makes you less naive to how the world beyond your own works. It would make you understand just how ridiculous you as a UK resident saying we can't tolerate other religions and cultures is.

 

[MWHCVT]

Because it opens your mind and makes you less naive to how the world beyond your own works. It would make you understand just how ridiculous you as a UK resident saying we can't tolerate other religions and cultures is.

If I said this country cannot tolerate other religions and cultures then I assure you that was a rather unfortunate typographical error on my part...but as it is I've become tired of this thread now...so I shall leave it for a little while now....especially since it has as is only to be expected become more about the religion in question than the policy of M&S and as such is probably now in breach of the forum rules which is something I have no interest in contravening

 

[PMN]

especially since it has as is only to be expected become more about the religion in question than the policy of M&S and as such is probably now in breach of the forum rules which is something I have no interest in contravening

You're wrong, it hasn't become more about the religion in any way, shape or form. I said when I visit Islamic countries I respect their laws and traditions, that says nothing about that specific religion, it only says I respect the laws and cultures of wherever I am. My next point was regarding the fact there are many countries around the world (which I didn't name) that were almost entirely intolerant of other religions - again that in no way refers to a specific religion.

Come on, Matt, if you're going to engage in discussions like this at least follow them properly.

 

[skysh4rk]

I don't consider it unreasonable to expect visitors to the UK to reciprocate that respect.

I've just gone back through the article and I can't find anywhere where it states that the worker was a visitor to the UK—can you not be British AND Muslim or do you have to be white?

Are we not expected to tolerate (not necessarily like) the beliefs of ALL UK residents, no matter their colour or religion or do beliefs count for less if they do not align with those of white Christian Britons?

I am a staunch atheist and I do not like any religion, but I tolerate Christianity. I don't see why it is unreasonable to also tolerate Islamic beliefs.

Because it opens your mind and makes you less naive to how the world beyond your own works. It would make you understand just how ridiculous you as a UK resident saying we can't tolerate other religions and cultures is.

It would also be naive to suggest that Britain were free from intolerance or somehow above reproach, just because the UK is less intolerant than elsewhere. There is still GREAT room for improvement.

By the way, just what tradition was this worker disrespecting?

 

[applemint]

Of course it is. If I can't buy bacon or booze in a shop in the UK because of a religious belief that isn't native to where I've grown up then it's being forced on me, or at the very least it's affecting how I can do things. That's wrong, plain and simple.

Well it would be if that were the case - but clearly it's not. Nothing is being 'forced on you'. This was one incident involving one till worker at one branch of one supermarket - clearly all the headlines it's getting show that it's so unusual as to be newsworthy. In any case he/she a) would not have normally been working on the tills anyway (M&S said "Where we have an employee whose religious beliefs restrict food or drink they can handle, we work closely with our member of staff to place them in suitable role, such as in our clothing department or bakery in foods. b) It also seems to be more a case of him/her being ott in refusing to serve a customer buying alcohol, as several Muslims have pointed out - eg: "Khola Hasan, an Islamic law consultant, told Radio 4's Today programme she thought the M&S employee's refusal to serve the customer was "ridiculous". http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25488259 The actions of one person do not represent anything but the actions of that one person.

As an aside, staff in M&S have twice refused to sell me alcohol because they said I looked under-age and had no id (I am 43!) and on other occasions have asked me to wait while they change cashiers (as one was finishing their shift or going for a break). Minor inconvenience, hardly the end of the world - as is being asked (politely and apologetically) to use another till. Most of the intolerance I have seen over this incident is coming from some of the racist and islamaphobic comments posted underneath this story on various newspaper websites - compared to that I really find it difficult to get offended over what is one till worker at one branch of one supermarket refusing to serve someone buying alcohol.

 

[PMN]

I've just gone back through the article and I can't find anywhere where it states that the worker was a visitor to the UK

Where was it suggested they were? We're talking about religion, it has nothing whatsoever to do with where you're born.

Are we not expected to tolerate (not necessarily like) the beliefs of ALL UK residents, no matter their colour or religion or do beliefs count for less if they do not align with those of white Christian Britons?

Do not imply I'm a Christian. Ever. Thank you.

It would also be naive to suggest that Britain were free from intolerance or somehow above reproach

Where did I even vaguely imply the UK was free of intolerance? Stop bringing lines into the conversation that weren't actually said.

 

[PMN]

As an aside, staff in M&S have refused to serve me alcohol because I looked under-age and had no id (I am 43!) and have asked me to wait while they change cashiers (as one was finishing their shift or going for a break). Minor inconvenience, hardly the end of the world - as is being asked (politely and apologetically) to use another till.

No it isn't, it's a fundamentally different principle, one based in the legality of UK licensing laws and the other based in the laws of religion. I'm really not seeing how they can possibly be compared.

 

[kendo1]

How strange.
The head of the Muslim Council of Great Britain stated that it is not against Islam to serve alcohol, pork or shellfish.
Consuming them is another matter, and best left to the individual and their views.

I wonder how the employee feels about being employed by a Jewish company?

 

[applemint]

No it isn't, it's a fundamentally different principle, one based in the legality of UK licensing laws and the other based in the laws of religion. I'm really not seeing how they can possibly be compared.

Yes I realise that - I am not comparing the reasons - just saying the end result (minor inconvenience) would be the same and (for me) no big deal.

 

[PMN]

Yes I realise that - I am not comparing the reasons - just saying the end result (minor inconvenience) would be the same and (for me) no big deal.

The end result of losing something and something being stolen is the same, it doesn't make the scenarios the same. They're entirely different situations and the cause is the significant thing, not the effect.

 

[Ricardodaforce]

This totally sums it up for me......... If any of us goes to another country i am pretty sure we all follow their cultures, it should be the same here but it's not.... It seems WE have to change everything for others and their cultures

You've never been to Benidorm then? I have had the great misfortune to meet Britains living in Spain that can't speak Spanish, who live in British communities and have no desire to integrate.

 

[PMN]

You've never been to Benidorm then? I have had the great misfortune to meet Britains living in Spain that can't speak Spanish, who live in British communities and have no desire to integrate.

Absolutely, there are times I see Brits abroad and I'm utterly embarrassed to be from the same country as them. As much as we're a very tolerant country by comparison to some others I think we often make very poor travellers ourselves.

 

[Steve Smith]

You've never been to Benidorm then? I have had the great misfortune to meet Britains living in Spain that can't speak Spanish, who live in British communities and have no desire to integrate.

I have a friend who did exactly that. They just want Britain with nice weather and have no intention of integrating with the Spanish.

There was a TV programme about this a few years ago where a Brit who moved to Spain was asked why he moved. "Because Britain's full of foreigners" was his reply!

Also, the BBC has a 'Have Your Say' section on their website which seems to attract comments from Daily Mail reading racist bigots. On a subject which someone had turned into an immigration debate (as they invariably do) someone had posted "I was fed up with immigration in Britain so I moved to Canada". Apparently with no hint of irony!


Steve.

 

[PMN]

They just want Britain with nice weather and have no intention of integrating with the Spanish.

Exactly. There are plenty of holidaymakers like that as well, they'll go to the Costa Del Sol, sit in the Red Lion pub all day drinking Carling and have egg and chips twice a day because they 'don't want any of that foreign muck'. That mentality makes me cringe.

 

[Steve Smith]

have egg and chips twice a day because they 'don't want any of that foreign muck'. That mentality makes me cringe.

I heard someone at work use that phrase. Something like "I only eat good old British food, none of that foreign muck". It makes me wonder if some people ever go more than 100 yards outside their houses.


Steve.

 

[PMN]

I wonder exactly the same, Steve. Exactly the same!

 

[digitalfailure]

In the most basic terms they aren't actually handling pork or alcohol, they are handling plastic or glass packaging. I'm a busy person who respects equality and freedom of expression, but if i'm held up in a shop while they find someone else to serve me mid way through the transaction they'll find themselves voiding the entire sale and losing my custom. Its just a matter of customer satisfaction, pee your customers off with delays and messing about and expect to lose the custom.

 

[viv1969]

Totally agree, and I tell you now as a retailing businessman, if a member of my staff acted that way they would be sacked for being unable to fulfil their role. Absolutely (censored) pathetic!

And unless you had it specifically written into your employees contract of employment that they MUST sell items, regardless of how it may affect their religious beliefs, then you would find yourself in front of an employment tribunal, where you would, in all likelihood, loose.