Come again?

M&S are just making sure that they don't get themselves stuck in a situation where a member of staff sues for being forced to do something against their religious beliefs in the workplace, it sounds moronic...but the reality is with the laws available to people in this country it's quite conceivable that laws written to protect basic human rights could be used for fiscal gain by those of such inclination, until such time that defects within these laws that allow such situations to exist you will get policies of this type...

The reality is however I doubt many members of staff would make use of such a policy....
 
maybe certain supermarkets should come clean about how much of their meat is Halal...after all, shouldn't people have the choice on that front too? equality and choice is supposed to work both ways unless i'm mistaken?
 
Muslims are not the problem... In the same article TESCO say they wont employ people/muslims who wont serve the goods they sell (seems like common sense to me) ...So really the problem is not with muslims... The problem is M& S whimps..
 
In a sane world the Mail would only be used for lighting log fires. Unfortunately some people do read it first but they are best ignored.
 
If you go to sites like the Daily Mail then you are the problem.

Staggers me that otherwise sane/intelligent people read that garbage and get swept up in it's outrage inducing BS.
 
posiview said:
Tw
Two words....Daily Mail.

End of.
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ancient_mariner said:
That.
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zendog said:
In a sane world the Mail would only be used for lighting log fires. Unfortunately some people do read it first but they are best ignored.
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mid_gen said:
If you go to sites like the Daily Mail then you are the problem.

Staggers me that otherwise sane/intelligent people read that garbage and get swept up in it's outrage inducing BS.
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frank said:
One other word Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/10533728/MandS-faces-furious-backlash-from-customers-over-Muslim-policy.html
Does it really matter what paper it's in ?
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I don`t think it really does Frank, but then I never buy a paper anyhow. I just like the types of comments you recieve from people who claim they go nowhere near it,as above. Especially when you point out that it was in the Telegraph. Their arguements are typically non valid. Probably the same people that claim " I never voted for them " in a discussion on whichever goverment happens to be in power :D
 
bored/foolish/incompetent till worker decides they want to liven up their day and maybe get in the news. Customer complains, customer service manager s***s bricks knowing this is exactly the sort of thing that will end on on tabloid front pages, fluffs lines.

Cue widespread outrage.

Nothing to see here, move along.
 
The thing is, how many papers write true articles? How much of the media is deliberately controlled by moles who 'seed' information that will detrimental to the outcome of a person?

I just find the whole story a bit stupid, it's the same as when I was working with the government years ago, the new policy came in that we couldn't put up christmas decorations in our office as they may offend others. My main argument was that Christmas was not about a religion but was actually a commercial event, how many religions celebrate christmas even though it's against their beliefs? The trouble here is if people like M&S back down over such a stupid idea, then others will follow and unfortunately there will be far too many minorities of people not knowing what or where to go without the 'fear' of someone disagreeing with something.
 
The article I read said that M&S already had a policy of not placing staff where they may handle goods that are against any belief, they allow jews to avoid posts where they may handle pork for example. In this case they did not follow their existing guidelines - no back down, no real story. As for Tesco, it said that Tesco stated that it made no sense for staff who refuse to touch items for religious reasons to work on a till. So they do employ people who won't serve the goods they sell. No story there either.
Reminds me of Drop the Dead Donkey :)
 
Considering there are soo many people unemployed and that everyone is *lucky to have a job in the current economic climate* (Just saying :D )
 
If the staff cant serve customers then they should not be doing that job, find another roll of filling shelves etc.
You would not get this story in The Sport they only report on real matters of concern. :)
 
Surely this isn't legal.
 
Refusing to serve someone who wants to buy something completely legally. Is that in itself illegal?
 
Pookeyhead said:
Refusing to serve someone who wants to buy something completely legally. Is that in itself illegal?
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Oh course it is, just because you want to buy something it doesn't mean that the shop has to tell it even if you offer the full asking price or more even it would fall under tort law, something forsale in a shop is only an invitation to offer to buy, the shop doesn't have to accept that offer
 
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only laws being broken are commen sense ones ..
 
There's probably a sign the size of a postage stamp saying something like "we reserve the right to decline serving customers blah blah blah"

If it were me and i'd already put half a trolley through and still half the belt full of my shopping and was declined being served a pack of bacon, I'd just walk off and go shopping elsewhere.
 
MWHCVT said:
Oh course it is, just because you want to buy something it doesn't mean that the shop has to tell it even if you offer the full asking price or more even it would fall under tort law, something forsale in a shop is only an invitation to offer to buy, the shop doesn't have to accept that offer
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LOL.. ok ... was only asking :) I'm a photographer, not a lawyer.

antihero said:
If it were me and i'd already put half a trolley through and still half the belt full of my shopping and was declined being served a pack of bacon, I'd just walk off and go shopping elsewhere.
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That's exactly what I would do.
 
Pookeyhead said:
LOL.. ok ... was only asking :) I'm a photographer, not a lawyer.
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I to am not a lawyer, but part of my business studies covered contract law to a certain level in particular stuff like this :)
 
Legal or not... it's utterly stupid. If it happened to me, I would simply leave the crap on the belt, and anything I'd packed in my own bags, I would empty out onto the bagging area, call the person an idiot in a very loud and clear voice, then walk out and let them tidy up the mess... then never go back. I bet there's not even anything in the Quaran preventing a Muslim from swiping a bottle of Pino Grigio or a packet of streaky in front of a scanner. It isn't like I'm asking them to eat or drink it!! Pathetic. M&S can go **** themselves.

I've got no patience with religion when it impacts upon my life. If people want to be religious, that's up to them, but the minute it interferes with me or my daily business, then God(s) (all of them) can just take a running jump.
 
This has nothing to do with invitation to treat or offer and acceptance. M & S have recognised, or agreed, that Muslim staff don't have to sell alcohol or pork if it conflicts with their faith. It's HR policy, and they're not denying anyone the opportunity to purchase these products.
 
MartynK said:
This has nothing to do with invitation to treat or offer and acceptance. M & S have recognised, or agreed, that Muslim staff don't have to sell alcohol or pork if it conflicts with their faith. It's HR policy, and they're not denying anyone the opportunity to purchase these products.
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So I have to stop and wait while they replace the cashier halfway through emptying my trolley? Sod that. They're not DENYING me the opportunity to buy them, no, but they're seriously inconveniencing me. They're idiots... pure and simple. This will hurt them financially.

This is not a Muslim country, and if a Muslim wants to work on a checkout, they have to accept that it's perfectly reasonable for non-muslims to buy alcohol and pork.... or not work there. Why should someone be inconvenienced by having to wait, or move all their crap to a different checkout?
 
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Vast numbers of foodstuffs contain alcohol or may be 'contaminated' by Tuh Evul Liquid :nailbiting: during manufacture. For instance, Mc Donalds list:

white wine vinegar in our sweet Chilli Sauce and Smokey BBQ Sauce; red wine vinegar in our BBQ Dip; and spirit vinegar in our Tomato Ketchup, Sweet Curry Dip and Sweet & Sour Dip.

Our Pancakes, Pancake Syrup, Blueberry Muffins, Toffee Sundaes, and the Cadbury Crunchie Pieces used in our McFlurry desserts contain flavourings that may have been extracted with alcohol or carried on an alcohol.

The Chocolate Sprinkles used in our cappuccino coffees contain flavouring that may be extracted with alcohol or carried on an alcohol, as may the syrups used to flavour our Milkshakes.

And anyway, humans synthesise alcohol spontaneously through a process called 'endogenous ethanol production'. This whole thing is stupid and will only stir problems, like those idiots who insist they be allowed to wear crosses or other silly badges in clean areas. It should be made clear at interview what is required, and if you don't like it, work somewhere else. Would a vegan apply for a job in an abattoir?
 
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Pookeyhead said:
So I have to stop and wait while they replace the cashier halfway through emptying my trolley? Sod that. They're not DENYING me the opportunity to buy them, no, but they're seriously inconveniencing me. They're idiots... pure and simple. This will hurt them financially.

This is not a Muslim country, and if a Muslim wants to work on a checkout, they have to accept that it's perfectly reasonable for non-muslims to buy alcohol and pork.... or not work there. Why should someone be inconvenienced by having to wait, or move all their crap to a different checkout?
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Totally agree, and I tell you now as a retailing businessman, if a member of my staff acted that way they would be sacked for being unable to fulfil their role. Absolutely (censored) pathetic!
 
Re: arguments suggesting that we don't get excited, as it's only the Daily Mail... well.. I'm not a fan of the Daily Mail by any means, but I'm pretty sure that if this wasn't true M&S would have refuted this by know.. quite strongly. The Daily Mail may well be pandering to the lowest common denominator as usual, but even they wouldn't run a story like this unless it was based on a fact, otherwise they'd be taken to the cleaners.


I really hope that is the case actually. A world where religion becomes a primary factor in making decisions is a frightening prospect... a bit like turning the clock back half a millennium or so. Look what's happening in Russia right now.... and look what band wagon they're driving in on to do that ****!

What next, placing scientists under house arrest for making discoveries? We've had our fill of that as a species haven't we? If it wasn't for the religious middle ages, we'd be exploring the galaxy by now.

Sod that.... give me my beer and bacon!... and hurry up with inventing that wormhole!
 
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u8myufo said:
I don`t think it really does Frank, but then I never buy a paper anyhow. I just like the types of comments you recieve from people who claim they go nowhere near it,as above. Especially when you point out that it was in the Telegraph. Their arguements are typically non valid. Probably the same people that claim " I never voted for them " in a discussion on whichever goverment happens to be in power :D
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Saying something was also in the Telegraph kinda adds weight to the argument that it should be ignored.
 
Pookeyhead said:
Re: arguments suggesting that we don't get excited, as it's only the Daily Mail... well.. I'm not a fan of the Daily Mail by any means, but I'm pretty sure that if this wasn't true M&S would have refuted this by know.. quite strongly. The Daily Mail may well be pandering to the lowest common denominator as usual, but even they wouldn't run a story like this unless it was based on a fact, otherwise they'd be taken to the cleaners.


I really hope that is the case actually. A world where religion becomes a primary factor in making decisions is a frightening prospect... a bit like turning the clock back half a millennium or so. Look what's happening in Russia right now.... and look what band wagon they're driving in on to do that ****!

What next, placing scientists under house arrest for making discoveries? We've had our fill of that as a species haven't we? If it wasn't for the religious middle ages, we'd be exploring the galaxy by now.

Sod that.... give me my beer and bacon!... and hurry up with inventing that wormhole!
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Good god almighty David, I thought we had also learnt tolerance of religions also as a species on the whole after some serious dark hours of human history in the last century...I don't think it is a lot to ask that if a religion has certain beliefs that if someone is devout in their beliefs that we can tolerate them...
 
Pookeyhead said:
The Daily Mail may well be pandering to the lowest common denominator as usual, but even they wouldn't run a story like this unless it was based on a fact, otherwise they'd be taken to the cleaners.
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I have no idea of all the factual details regarding this story (which was also on the Guardian and BBC websites), but the Daily Mail, Sun, Express and others have all published stories which have been shown to be not based on fact - there are even several blogs (tabloid watch, but I read it in the papers etc) whose sole purpose is to debunk 'news' tabloid stories.
 
MWHCVT said:
Good god almighty David, I thought we had also learnt tolerance of religions also as a species on the whole after some serious dark hours of human history in the last century...I don't think it is a lot to ask that if a religion has certain beliefs that if someone is devout in their beliefs that we can tolerate them...
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I completely disagree. When I'm in Islamic countries (which I am occasionally) I respect their laws and cultures, I'd never dream of forcing my beliefs on them in their own land and I don't consider it unreasonable to expect visitors to the UK to reciprocate that respect.
 
I know that sounded harsh Matt, I didn't mean it to but as someone who's travelled extensively I do have very strong feelings about respecting the traditions of whatever country you're in. I don't see why that should be a one-way thing.
 
MWHCVT said:
Good god almighty David,
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Oh I agree. I firmly believe that everyone has a right to believe what they want. That includes me too I would hope. I'll fight to defend that freedom too if I'm called upon to do so. If only certain organised religions would allow people to live their lives how they wanted however. Only in the past 48 hours we've seen one of the most brilliant minds of the 20th century, a man who's brilliance saved up from tyranny... PARDONED... for nothing more than loving someone else. What do you think the basis of THAT ugly little law was, huh?

I am tolerant of religion... so long as it stays a religion, stops being politics, and doesn't impinge upon me in any way shape or form as a free human being living in a democracy. The minute it forces itself upon those who chose NOT to believe in fairy tales, then it becomes something else entirely. While there are people who are NOT free to choose the way they live in this world because of organised religion, then I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong tree by lecturing me on comparative moralities. Religion as an individual thing is fair enough... just someone's belief... innocuous.. harmless... but when it's an organisation, with power, money and politics behind it... Oh dear... then it's something else. Yes... dark periods in history you say.... Hmmm.... let's talk about religion's role in the vast majority of those shall we?

Perhaps not... not in here anyway. PM me if you want a theological discussion. I feel I'm sailing close to the wind here with regards to being moderated :) Moderated... I like that... almost like a euphemism... "You shall be assimilate..... errr.... I mean, moderated" :)


Don't lecture me on tolerance BTW. I've paid my dues in that dept., and quite honestly don't need to justify myself to anyone in here... there... or anywhere. I'm a Guardian reading uni lecturer FFS... you think I fit some kind of neo-nazi profile? LOL. I spent my formative teenage years working in a gay club (and guess what!.. Newsflash... it didn't make me gay!!), my wife is Chinese, and I have a mixed race child, and if she grows up to be religious.... including Muslim (which is possible.. she spends enough time in Malaysia), or gay, or transgendered, or even a bloody scientologist... then she will get my blessing if it makes her happy. Stop judging me. The minute she tries to impose her will on other, unwilling people however.... then we will have words. When Christians and Muslims play by these rules of tolerance you propose Mathew, then we'll talk again. When I can go shopping in downtown Riyadh, or Baghdad, and complain because I can't be served alcohol... and their businesses and governments stand up for my rights as a minority... then we'll talk Mathew. Tolerance is something that should be RECIPROCATED... not a unilateral decision by the weak, chattering classes to make themselves feel morally superior.



applemint said:
I have no idea of all the factual details regarding this story (which was also on the Guardian and BBC websites), but the Daily Mail, Sun, Express and others have all published stories which have been shown to be not based on fact - there are even several blogs (tabloid watch, but I read it in the papers etc) whose sole purpose is to debunk 'news' tabloid stories.
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I find it odd however, M&S haven't said anything to the contrary.


Anyway....

Merry Retailmass... oh sorry... Christmas :)
 
PMN said:
I completely disagree. When I'm in Islamic countries (which I am occasionally) I respect their laws and cultures, I'd never dream of forcing my beliefs on them in their own land and I don't consider it unreasonable to expect visitors to the UK to reciprocate that respect.
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It is hardly being forced on us though is it, we are not being told we will not sell XYZ what we are saying is if someone because of religious beliefs wishes not to be in contact with XYZ they will not be forced into that position, I see this as no different than say nuts being banned from an aircraft because someone no said aircraft has an allergy...personally I follow no religion if all religions were to not exist it would have no effect on my life, however I respect that there are those of all denominations that do have faith and I believe that in this country that faith should be respected...

Following the laws of a country doesn't come into it, this is not a legal issue at all...respecting the laws on the country your in is only right...
 
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