Chroma - Lasercut Acrylic 4x5 Field Camera

ianp5a said:
I've suddenly gone off it. It sounds flammable.
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In what way? If ripstop nylon was added it would be the outer layer of the bellows. I've not looked into flammable properties of other bellows but I'd expect a wooden camera with leather bellows would be just as flammable?
 
stevelmx5 said:
Good question. The sample bellows I had made in China came with a fablon type clear plastic material stuck to the inner layer so created a lot of reflections/flare. Looking at this material, on the windowsill, it doesn't appear to reflect much light at all so I think it would be ideal.
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I think that until you build it and shoot some sheets you will not know for sure. Get a prototype completed and try it out in different situations, light etc just to prove the materials.
Also, I am informed by the CMS that we are to have one and it had better be one of the early numbered jobs. :D
 
Andysnap said:
I think that until you build it and shoot some sheets you will not know for sure. Get a prototype completed and try it out in different situations, light etc just to prove the materials.
Also, I am informed by the CMS that we are to have one and it had better be one of the early numbered jobs. :D
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I think you're right mate. On their own, the materials I'm looking at will perform the task they're supposed to. I just need to make sure they all go together :0)

As for a numbered Chroma, I've already seen Janet's reply but thanks for the vote of confidence regardless, it means a lot.
 
Just backing up a bit with another thought that popped into my mind. You tested the new material with an LED torch but visually. Any chance that the material is opaque to the visible spectrum but lets through UV that could fog film? I assume that an LED bulb isn't continuous spectrum, but it's probably overly cautious to go into that!
 
StephenM said:
Just backing up a bit with another thought that popped into my mind. You tested the new material with an LED torch but visually. Any chance that the material is opaque to the visible spectrum but lets through UV that could fog film? I assume that an LED bulb isn't continuous spectrum, but it's probably overly cautious to go into that!
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You're right in that an LED torch is on a different part of the spectrum but I also took the sample outside in the sun for a visual test and it (appears) to be just as effective. I won't know for definite until I build a set of bellows with it and actually try it though.
 
This is brilliant, progressed SO much since I've been away. Well done, Steve!

Reading through the last 3 pages quickly, my main question has been obliquely addressed I think, but have you seriously addressed the problem of success? It's one thing getting friend and family to build 60 (quite an ask even so), but what if you get the sort of success that Intrepid did and you need to build 400? Clearly you'll either have to emply people yourself or outsource the building; just need to be sure you've costed in all of that. You don't want a runaway success that means you have to sell your house... Mrs mx5 would not be pleased!
 
ChrisR said:
This is brilliant, progressed SO much since I've been away. Well done, Steve!

Reading through the last 3 pages quickly, my main question has been obliquely addressed I think, but have you seriously addressed the problem of success? It's one thing getting friend and family to build 60 (quite an ask even so), but what if you get the sort of success that Intrepid did and you need to build 400? Clearly you'll either have to emply people yourself or outsource the building; just need to be sure you've costed in all of that. You don't want a runaway success that means you have to sell your house... Mrs mx5 would not be pleased!
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Thanks Chris and yes, the possibility of a big seller has crossed my mind [emoji15]. I've been put onto a "Campaign Manager" by Chris Gampat so I've been asking him all sorts of questions about the best/right way to run rewards.

My initial thinking was a limited run on rewards entirely (10 numbered, 20 that are cheaper than release and 30 at full release price) which would mean I know that, even if it's a great success, I will have to build 60 cameras and then give myself time to see if it's something I want to develop from there. I've been getting interest in the camera from people all over the world via Instagram/Facebook which, whilst very nice, does make me realise that it's something that could take off and as a result impact my home and working life. My home life isn't exactly chilled out and full of free time, having two young kids and a nurse for a wife, so the idea of filling up the spare time I do have with buiding cameras is something that's already come up here!
 
Not sure I've ever seen a "limited edition" Kickstarter, but I suppose they could work. It would be nice if there was a "tempt me" option where people who missed out on edition 1 could bid for you to build them one later... once you know the production costs in volume you could set a cutoff and those bidding more get their camera. No, I'm getting over-complicated here...
 
I quite liked the idea of tying the branding in to the other work, and the Everyday Chroma has a swing to it. But I think the Everyday branding works against the camera, which is anything but everyday. Couldn't think pf a suitable catchy term for Special Day (even today!), or even outlandishly garishly exciting day!
 
ChrisR said:
Not sure I've ever seen a "limited edition" Kickstarter, but I suppose they could work. It would be nice if there was a "tempt me" option where people who missed out on edition 1 could bid for you to build them one later... once you know the production costs in volume you could set a cutoff and those bidding more get their camera. No, I'm getting over-complicated here...
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I've seen other "Kickstarter Edition" products that are branded accordingly. Potentially, I'll be engraving the first ten "one", "two" "three" etc but here's no reason I couldn't then engrave the next 20 "Kickstarter Edition". Then, as well as being cheaper than the release price, they're also unique.
 
In the scheme of things, the uptake of large format cameras is not huge even on a world wide basis. Yous will be a niche in an already small niche, so it will never be a massive undertaking.
Of recent times the market has been satisfied by the pool of excellent but redundant second hand cameras coming on to the market.

About the only exclusive selling point of yours, is the material it is made out of and the colour of the finished article. In terms of size weight and movements, it sits in the middle of what is on offer elsewhere.

To to be realistic, it probably has a fairly small exclusive market, that may well be served fairly quickly by a small rush of orders, followed by a very slow subsequent uptake.
If that is true, it would be a mistake to tool up to support a continuing surge, but plan for a low but steady rate of manufacture, even if that means an initial waiting list.

While there would be some advantage of scale, in producing batches or prepared parts. This is unlikely to be the case for the finished construction. and the larger the stock of parts or finished cameras the greater the capital that will be tied up, and the smaller the eventual margin..
The trick will be in sizing the batches correctly, especially in terms of outlay, but also to take account of the inevitable design change that will occur along the way.
Craft based manufacture, and Large format and bellows construction certainly fall into that bracket, do not scale up well, and the best outcome is always slow and steady.
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
In the scheme of things, the uptake of large format cameras is not huge even on a world wide basis. Yous will be a niche in an already small niche, so it will never be a massive undertaking.
Of recent times the market has been satisfied by the pool of excellent but redundant second hand cameras coming on to the market.

About the only exclusive selling point of yours, is the material it is made out of and the colour of the finished article. In terms of size weight and movements, it sits in the middle of what is on offer elsewhere.

To to be realistic, it probably has a fairly small exclusive market, that may well be served fairly quickly by a small rush of orders, followed by a very slow subsequent uptake.
If that is true, it would be a mistake to tool up to support a continuing surge, but plan for a low but steady rate of manufacture, even if that means an initial waiting list.

While there would be some advantage of scale, in producing batches or prepared parts. This is unlikely to be the case for the finished construction. and the larger the stock of parts or finished cameras the greater the capital that will be tied up, and the smaller the eventual margin..
The trick will be in sizing the batches correctly, especially in terms of outlay, but also to take account of the inevitable design change that will occur along the way.
Craft based manufacture, and Large format and bellows construction certainly fall into that bracket, do not scale up well, and the best outcome is always slow and steady.
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Thanks for your advice. I agree that LF is a niche area but the success of the recent Intrepid 8x10 campaign (fully funded in 26 minutes) shows that there is a growing demand for traditional photography. The bulk of photography blogs are reviewing/promoting analogue photography again which is in turn building a new area of young digital shooters that want to try something 'new'. The idea behind my camera is to tap into a younger market (potentially) that may not want to risk a second hand investment and also want something a little more personal than a traditional wood built camera.

I'm not intending to make a living out of the Chroma but the challenge of designing, building and selling my own camera is something important to me. Also, due to the custom options, I'm not going to be building any cameras for stock so everything will be built on demand. Whilst this will add a few weeks to the delivery times, I think someone buying a LF camera will accept that.
 
If the camera is one you want, then a delay should be acceptable. I ordered my Walker Titan SF in late December, and received it the following June. In terms of sales figures, there's a review of the Titan dated 1996 which suggests it appeared around that time. I bought one of the last 10 to be made, with a serial number of 995, which suggests the total volume was 1,000.

(Edit to add: a total volume of 1000 is meaningless without giving the time scale. The last camera was made at the end of 2015, so let's say 1000 over 20 years or about 1 per week).

(And I still think it was worth the wait :)).

I must admit to being tempted as I have wood, metal and ABS 5x4's but no acrylic one...
 
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Two more things... need to watch your liability, might need to set up a company, with attendant (lowish) costs. Also, need to factor in warranty issues. Bound to be some occasions where tolerances are out, materials split, or folk just drop them and blame you!
 
StephenM said:
If the camera is one you want, then a delay should be acceptable. I ordered my Walker Titan SF in late December, and received it the following June. In terms of sales figures, there's a review of the Titan dated 1996 which suggests it appeared around that time. I bought one of the last 10 to be made, with a serial number of 995, which suggests the total volume was 1,000.

(Edit to add: a total volume of 1000 is meaningless without giving the time scale. The last camera was made at the end of 2015, so let's say 1000 over 20 years or about 1 per week).

(And I still think it was worth the wait :)).

I must admit to being tempted as I have wood, metal and ABS 5x4's but no acrylic one...
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If I get orders for 1000 I'll be changing career!

Seriously, if I can get backing for 60 cameras that will make it worthwhile and be a realistic number to build in my spare time.

However, I agree that you clearly need an acrylic camera in your collection ;0)
 
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When I ran a business making custom clothing, I did individual custom orders as well as bulk pre-orders for Christmas. People are happy to wait for something if they want it - especially on Kickstarter, where it's expected that you may have to wait at least weeks, probably months for their reward. I think people will wait - especially at the price point you are setting for your Chroma, it's very competitively-priced.

Further to what @ChrisR says about liability - I worked through a Limited company, but the costs of that (accountants, mostly) can mount up very quickly. If it picks up, it might be worth thinking about - for the Kickstarter, possibly not? Maybe a question for your Campaign Manager?
 
Thanks for the advice Charlotte. I'll check with the guy I've been put on to.

I was watching a video review of the updated Intrepid 4x5 by Ben Horn earlier and he flagged a few areas where he could see improvements. The ones I was most interested in were;

1) A proper ground glass protection sheet - The Intrepid comes with an offcut of ply which can strapped across the GG using the elastic but it's not exactly a custom fit.

I've already got a pre-cut cover plate for the ground glass with finger grips for removing it but I was relying on friction to hold it in place. Whilst this works, I'm a little concerned that the cover could come out unintentionally so I've drawn in 5mm cube corner magnets to snap it into place.

Chroma-Rear Cover.jpg

2) A proper clip to hold the camera together when folded down - The Intrepid doesn't have any kind of clip or fastener to hold it together so there's a risk of it opening in the bag and the bellows getting damaged.

I've drawn up a very simple clip that will hold the rear standard in the closed position by latching around the base of the front standard. This can be kept in the bag then and clipped on when the camera is folded down.

Chroma-Folded.jpg

3) A more secure focus lock - My Chroma system uses a base mounted focusing knob like a Polaroid 110 rather than the more traditional knobs on each side of the bed. Whilst everything will be a snug fit, I was concerned that if the camera was pointing downwards with a heavier lens there could be some focus creep so I've added an integrated locking bolt that can be turned to lock the focussing at whatever point it it set to. The main large scalloped dial is turned to focus then the smaller integrated scalloped dial can be turned a very small amount to increase the friction and keep the focusing bed in position.

Chroma-Focus Lock.jpg

Another negative that Ben Horn mentioned is something I've already mitigated with the rubber coating on the focus bed. He found that even when the swing/shift knob is tightened as far as he was happy with there is still the potential for movement due to the front standard and bed both being varnished ply. The Chroma has a thin 1mm rubber layer on the mating surface underneath the standard so that once it's locked in place it's not going anywhere. I've also integrated the same thin rubber surface to the rise/fall and tilt axes to ensure that the movements lock in exactly where you want them :0)
 
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Oh, I've also agreed a bulk rate for the pinhole plates from the same guy that's going to supply the ground glass so that's another item ticked off the list :0)
 
My black inner liner material has just arrived as well so now I just need an A1 sized piece of black card and I can cut them all out [emoji4]
 
Having just looked more closely at the Intrepid bellows on their Instagram page, I've realised that they do exactly the same as I'm looking at and have an external layer of ripstop nylon to give the colour. I guess if it works for them and the 800-odd 4x5's they've delivered since they started it can't be a bad solution :0)
 
What a glorious shade of orange. It'll definitely stand out from all the walnut-and-black LF cameras!

Edit: AND you can be protected from hunters in the woods, too.
 
stevelmx5 said:
I've just bought an Angulon 90/6.8. The shutter will need a CLA because it's slow but for the price I got it (£40) I reckon it's worth it for some wide angle action :0)
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Excellent. I have the 65mm SA on my 6x12 camera. I think that if I used it on 5x4 I could stand behind the camera and get both shoulders in the frame!


Steve.
 
I'm quite comforted by the fact you got a lens for £40 - I've been idly looking at the prices of 4x5 lenses on eBay and getting a bit disheartened!
 
If you can find a Symmar 150mm (not Symmar S or Apo-Symmar etc; the plain Symmar is the older version) it converts to about double the focal length by unscrewing part. In general the Symmars (not Symmar S etc. etc.) do this. So I have a 150mm and a 265mm in one lens. They can be quite cheap.

Do bear in mind that with 5x4 you have minimal enlargement to do to get a print. If a plastic meniscus lens is OK to give a 6"x4" from 35mm then the same will give a 20"x16" print from 5x4. I admit I'm overstating in that I don't know of a 35mm camera with a plastic meniscus lens; but I'm pretty sure that my Brownie Flash 20 6x6 has one, and it can give an excellent half plate (say 5"x7" in modern money). That still comes out at 10x8 or so from 5x4.

Edit to add:
A cheat I've never tried - a close up lens works by giving a shorter combined focal length for the camera lens/close up lens combination. That means that the two together have an extension greater than the focal length, and hence focus closer. Not the usual way of looking at how they work, but hey ho... Hence in theory, using a close up lens would work as a wide angle converter if you could get the lens closer to the film plane. Not possible with 35mm etc., but simple with a view camera. I can see problems, but if needs must it might be worth trying.
 
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mothdust said:
I'm quite comforted by the fact you got a lens for £40 - I've been idly looking at the prices of 4x5 lenses on eBay and getting a bit disheartened!
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Average price for the Angulon 90's tends to be £99-150 from traders with warranty. The one I've bought is from a private seller and the shutter needs work but I'm hoping I've got a bargain.

The price of the Angulon's went up when the Travelwide was released because it was built as a point and shoot LF camera with the 90mm lens.
 
I've been thinking about adding a logo to the camera, along with the name, and have been focusing on a representation of a colour wheel like the "Chroma" name refers to. The ground glass cover plate is a perfect spot for a logo because it's visible whether the camera is folded or open and can also be removed so the logo doesn't always take centre stage.

Chroma-Logo by Steve Lloyd, on Flickr

What are your honest thoughts on this? I've looked at this colour wheel graphic before for use on the website and think it works when simplified too. The circles will be engraved by the laser.
 
Just looking at the text and the colour wheel graphic... would it work if cut to the same shape as the O in CHROMA, visually linking the two? Might not feel like a colour wheel, but...:(
 
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