Christmas Drink Drive Campaign

Yv said:
I just did, can find stats for Scotland and Wales, but not England, its a very frustrating website....however, THIS report is from last years stats gathered in 2009. 380 killed in accidents where alcohol was involved [bear in mind that might well include drunken pedestrians staggering out in front of cars, it doesn't specify] and 2222 killed in total. My brain isn't enough in gear to try and extrapolate injury comparisions too, and again, there are no specifics as to the type of accident. I am only saying this because the Welsh report on the ONS site mentions that the figure involving alcohol is a 'significant' minority of overall figures and that includes incidents involving pedestrians - so I guess either way is meant, DD'ers hitting them and them wandering out infront of moving traffic. :shrug:


Anyway, a few stats for Tom, he can find the rest himself, I need to go but dog food before the russells start eating me :D
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See above...lol

Isn't a 'significant minority' an oxymoron?
 
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tiler65 said:
Brake lights not working are not necessarily a bulb problem.

Matt it has nothing to do with the licensed trade, it is to do with your morality on phoning the police. How can you tell who is over the DD limit?
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I don't really get this whole morality question, if I suspect that a person is drink driving I'm going to call the police, I've done it, I'm not going to fell bad about it either and I will do it again in the future if I need too.

I cannot tell if someone is over the limit it's about suspicion and if I have a suspicion I'm going to call the police and they can then check with the correctly calibrated equipment.

Matt
 
I am not saying you shouldn't call the police, I am asking where do you draw the line on calling the police - there are hundreds of scenarios of offences where this could be done but we choose not to call the police.

As a side note to your previous employ, did you stop your customers drinking too much? All dilemmas we have to deal with I suppose.
 
There are some more stats on the DFT site - I don't know if they'll be more use to you.

The ONS isn't the easiest site to wade through </understatement> ;)
 
tiler65 said:
1 pint, 1/2 a pint.... a shandy bass, a box of liqueur chocolates or 4 brandy filled mince pies - at what extent do you stop your friend from driving?
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Half a bottle of vodka in that case.

There is the law and if a friend has had over the limit or appears drunk.
 
tiler65 said:
I am not saying you shouldn't call the police, I am asking where do you draw the line on calling the police - there are hundreds of scenarios of offences where this could be done but we choose not to call the police.

As a side note to your previous employ, did you stop your customers drinking too much? All dilemmas we have to deal with I suppose.
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I did, if someone was drunk to the point that I felt it was unwise to serve them further drink then I would not serve them more alcohol, in case you are not aware it is actually illegal to serve someone that is already drunk :shrug:

Matt
 
Islander said:
There are some more stats on the DFT site - I don't know if they'll be more use to you.

The ONS isn't the easiest site to wade through </understatement> ;)
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Yeah I read that one while searching from the ONS as that is the one it is linked too but it does not give a proportional stat and also it is an estimate so not sure how good or bad these things are.
 
MWHCVT said:
I did, if someone was drunk to the point that I felt it was unwise to serve them further drink then I would not serve them more alcohol, in case you are not aware it is actually illegal to serve someone that is already drunk :shrug:

Matt
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but what is drunk?
 
Flash In The Pan said:
Makes no difference, the limit should be zero, then there's no room for dubiety.
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I don't disagree but I think if we had a zero tolerance it would be another nail in the coffin for pubs.......but then again I might buy myself some black cab plates.
 
No problem with being tested. I won't be over the limit, I like my driving licence too much to risk it. No more than one if I'm driving home and if not driving I won't drink more than two or three in the evening before a work day, simply so I know I'm not going to be over when driving to work the following morning. I am quite well aware of how impared my perception and reactions are when I've had enough to put me at around the legal limit and wouldn't want to drive a car in that condition. That said, I'm not a smoker but one Camel or Gauloise has a similarly dizzying effect on me and there's no law against that.

After the office Christmas party I always take the bus in the following morning.


Yv said:
popped the bonnet and removed the rotor arm from under the distributor cap
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If it was today, with the quality of rotor arms nowadays it would probably have failed before he got it off the driveway anyhow. Think they are all made in a factory in China by people that don't know what "insulation" is.

Not that this is of any relevance to the topic at hand :naughty:
 
Flash In The Pan said:
Makes no difference, the limit should be zero, then there's no room for dubiety.
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except there is - lets take 3 blokes to the pub, buy them each 5 pints of average strength beer spread across our entertaining evening then put them in a taxi home at 11.15. The following morning, around 7.30 say, lets test each of them before they drive to work and see what a standard breath test shows. For the sake of this debate, lets also do blood tests, and see how they differ to the breath test results. Do you think all 3 will have the same result? If we did it with 10, 20, 100 people, would they all be the same? In short no - some of them will be perfectly ok to drive, bright as buttons with reflexes to match, some might have the hangover from hell, either because they don't drink that much normally or can't process alcohol as well as others....etc etc...and some might actually still be drunk, by anyones standards.... you get my point.

Zero intolerance would indeed reduce the 'have drink, get in car' ambiguity, but it still won't cover the general problem of each body into which the alcohol is poured is different. :shrug:
 
A couple of years ago I worked with a guy in his 50s who was going through a bad patch with his wife...... well I say a bad patch, he&#8217;d cheated on her for a second time (after 10-15 years) with the same woman.

He came into work one day really struggling to walk and apparently she&#8217;d stamped down on his Achilles tendon and then kicked him in the ribs while he was down (IMO a reasonably fair punishment).

As the days went on he got steadily worse on his feet and a couple of us had a sneaky feeling he was drunk. One day he came in and was REALLY bad but shortly after he got into the office he disappeared. A couple of women from another department came to see us and said they&#8217;d seen him staggering in the direction of the off-site car park so I grabbed one of my colleagues (the bloke in question was bigger than me) and we set off after him.

We found his car (a T5 Volvo very badly parked across 2 bays) but no sign of him, he then came swinging round the stair case and slurred &#8220;Alright you two, what are you doing here?&#8221;, I asked him where he was going and he said &#8220;home &#8216;cos I don&#8217;t feel well&#8221; so I said &#8220;Sorry fella, you&#8217;re not going anywhere, you&#8217;re not driving in your condition&#8221;, he protested a little bit then my mate said &#8220;You&#8217;re going to have to get past two of us fella, it ain&#8217;t gunna happen&#8221;.

We walked him out of the car park, he wreaked of booze and then started sobbing saying how cr4p his life was etc. At this point we called our manager (who had been in a meeting) who met us and took him to the medical centre where they found a half empty bottle of Vodka.

His wife picked him up and security moved his car to the onsite car park. We had to give statements to HR but being sympathetic (as I had also just split with my wife so had a little empathy for his situation) said that he gave the impression that he *could* have been under the influence but I&#8217;m not trained to make that judgement.

In hindsight I wish I hadn&#8217;t bothered trying to help him as he came into work 2 days later, moaning that security had damaged his car when moving it and that he&#8217;s had a &#8220;mini-stroke&#8221; which was backed up by a rather dubious doctors note, written by the consultant that his wife was a PA for and who was retiring in a matter of days.

Then to add further insult to injury, he was caught DD a few weeks later..... the excuse being, the clutch went in his car and it was the last straw so he hit the bottle while waiting for the AA..... SERIOUSLY!!!!

I have no tolerance for drink drivers, if I&#8217;m drinking I don&#8217;t drive and I&#8217;d shop my own Dad if I believed he was going to drive under the influence (although having said that, he physically wouldn&#8217;t get to his car to be able to drive it :lol: )
 
Flash In The Pan said:
Makes no difference, the limit should be zero, then there's no room for dubiety.
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That is just silly. One mince pie could well make me over the limit. The current rules are fine imo. What should be done, is anyone getting caught DD for the 2nd or more times, should not only lose license for life, but also serve 5 years.

The problem I have is not with going out to the pub, getting drunk and driving, but when are you safe to drive. I was out last night - can't remember what I had, think it was 3 pints, and something like 7-8 dissorano's and coke, and sambucca and a JD, some of those may have been doubles. Last drink was about 8pm, so when can I drive? 7am, 9am, 1pm????? In most cases, you know when you break the law (theft, speeding, assault etc...) but there is no way of knowing when I am fit to drive?
 
cambsno said:
That is just silly. One mince pie could well make me over the limit. The current rules are fine imo. What should be done, is anyone getting caught DD for the 2nd or more times, should not only lose license for life, but also serve 5 years.

The problem I have is not with going out to the pub, getting drunk and driving, but when are you safe to drive. I was out last night - can't remember what I had, think it was 3 pints, and something like 7-8 dissorano's and coke, and sambucca and a JD, some of those may have been doubles. Last drink was about 8pm, so when can I drive? 7am, 9am, 1pm????? In most cases, you know when you break the law (theft, speeding, assault etc...) but there is no way of knowing when I am fit to drive?
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exactly!
 
Yv said:
except there is - lets take 3 blokes to the pub, buy them each 5 pints of average strength beer spread across our entertaining evening then put them in a taxi home at 11.15. The following morning, around 7.30 say, lets test each of them before they drive to work and see what a standard breath test shows. For the sake of this debate, lets also do blood tests, and see how they differ to the breath test results. Do you think all 3 will have the same result? If we did it with 10, 20, 100 people, would they all be the same? In short no - some of them will be perfectly ok to drive, bright as buttons with reflexes to match, some might have the hangover from hell, either because they don't drink that much normally or can't process alcohol as well as others....etc etc...and some might actually still be drunk, by anyones standards.... you get my point.

Zero intolerance would indeed reduce the 'have drink, get in car' ambiguity, but it still won't cover the general problem of each body into which the alcohol is poured is different. :shrug:
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Umm, my point is that there should be zero-tolerence, then it doesn't matter whether one person can "handle" his drink better than another.
 
tiler65 said:
but what is drunk?
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For the purposes of the law, a blood alcohol level above the legal limit. People may not appear drunk as in slurred words or poor balance but they're still very likely to have impaired reactions and judgement.
 
Yv said:
except as Cambsno said, how the hell do you know when you as an individual are safe again? :thinking:
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Simple. If you've been out drinking the night before and you think you've had enough to affect you the following morning, don't drive. If you have any doubt about your blood alcohol level, don't drive. If it's important that you drive the following morning, don't drink.
 
Islander said:
Simple. If you've been out drinking the night before and you think you've had enough to affect you the following morning, don't drive. If you have any doubt about your blood alcohol level, don't drive. If it's important that you drive the following morning, don't drink.
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except many that get caught a bit over the limit think they are safe to drive, so defining 'if you think' is impossible, you can feel absolutely fine, be pretty sure that the previous nights intake was moderate and yet, on any given day in a certain set of circumstances, still be over the limit as it is now, or indeed have some detectable degree should it be zero.

Don't get me wrong here, I am simply playing devils advocate, a zero tolerance law wouldn't worry me at all, but it still won't remove the problem or make it any easier for people to know, in fact in this scenario, it will actually make it harder.
 
Islander said:
For the purposes of the law, a blood alcohol level above the legal limit. People may not appear drunk as in slurred words or poor balance but they're still very likely to have impaired reactions and judgement.
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What legal limit? DD limit?...I was talking about the word drunk, as in Matt saying it was against the law to serve someone who is drunk.

So I go to the pub, have 4 pints of strong cider or lager, which may well put me over the DD limit but does that make me drunk and therefore unable to purchase any more grog?

In the good ol' US of A they now say DUI rather than DD as it covers a wider spectrum. Maybe we should adopt it too.
 
BandyQuill said:
i got pulled about 2 months ago in pontefract ebcause i was seen leaving a pub, no arguments, if im driving i dont drink, came back a big ole' 0 for me :) also got pulled 3 times in france by the friendly Gendarme and asked to blow pipe, all ok there too, they do theirs all year round :)
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isn't it illegal to sexually bribe the police? :naughty: Mind you ... it was France :lol:
 
I realise you're playing devils advocate ;)

It's basically the responsibility of the driver though. If they have any doubts then they simply shouldn't attempt to drive. If they do drive and they are over the limit then they shouldn't expect any sympathy. :)
 
tiler65 said:
What legal limit? DD limit?...I was talking about the word drunk, as in Matt saying it was against the law to serve someone who is drunk.

So I go to the pub, have 4 pints of strong cider or lager, which may well put me over the DD limit but does that make me drunk and therefore unable to purchase any more grog?

In the good ol' US of A they now say DUI rather than DD as it covers a wider spectrum. Maybe we should adopt it too.
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Whether you appear drunk or not, you're going to be impaired and thus not fit to be in control of a car. How impaired you may be will vary from person to person, there has to be a baseline set and so we have a blood alcohol level defined.
 
Tony, what about the point of Matt's saying it was against the law to serve a drunk, how do we determine drunk in that scenario?
 
That's the licensee's call (as it's his licence that's at risk). I'd imagine they'd be looking for obvious signs of drunken behaviour. I've never actually seen anyone at a bar refused a drink for being drunk though.
 
tiler65 said:
but what is drunk?
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The offence isn't 'drunk driving', it's:

A person who, when driving or attempting to drive a [F1mechanically propelled vehicle] on a road or other public place, is unfit to drive through drink or drugs is guilty of an offence.
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(ROTA 1988, Part I: Motor vehicles: drink and drugs, Section 4, paragraph 1

and you are to be found to be guilty if you are over the prescribed limit, which is the limit that the police and government have determined to be a point at which one can be considered "unfit", in section 5:

If a person&#8212;
(a)drives or attempts to drive a motor vehicle on a road or other public place, or
(b)is in charge of a motor vehicle on a road or other public place,after consuming so much alcohol that the proportion of it in his breath, blood or urine exceeds the prescribed limit he is guilty of an offence.
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More to the point, just don't do it, really not cool, and has the ability to ruin both your and other people's lives. Many bars will even give a designated driver a free soft drink with every round, or end of the day, a taxi between a few mates isn't going to run you to too much money.

That said, I see no problem with YV having half a glass of wine at lunchtime, then driving home that evening - that will not render anyone with a functioning liver unfit to drive or even in any way influenced 4 hours later. The danger in saying that that's ok, of course, is that other people might go 'well, I had a pint, and it was only two hours, I'm used to handling my drink though....'
 
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You cannot have zero tolerance as there is alcohol present in many day to day items. Don't forget a lot of mouth washes have an alcohol base.

The current drink drive limit works well. At the end of the day it is merely a guide line.

As a driver I make it my responsibility that if I am the driver, then I won't touch alcohol. This is what ALL drivers should do.

I personally think that the base level punishment should be harsher. If it was a minimum of an 18 month ban followed by a retest before regaining your licence, then maybe more would take notice.

Please don't compare faulty lights with DD. that is a ridiculous comparison to make. Generally a faulty light bulb won't increase the odds of a person losing control of a car!

We will never clear the roads of Drink drivers but we are heading in the right direction.

Andy
 
Personally as well as a DD limit I would like there to be some form of sobriety test as well, as the following scenario could happen.

My wife is teetotal, and always has been. (She just doesn't like the taste) Now theroretically she could have whatever alcohol to take her to marginally just under the limit (about 2 pints or so) but no way would I get in a car with her in that condition.

Again, my personal opinion, however I would have two categoreis of DD offences. There is the deliberate intent of going to the pub getting drunk and driving home and then there is the morning after the night before scenario.
 
Lynton said:
Personally as well as a DD limit I would like there to be some form of sobriety test as well, as the following scenario could happen.

My wife is teetotal, and always has been. (She just doesn't like the taste) Now theroretically she could have whatever alcohol to take her to marginally just under the limit (about 2 pints or so) but no way would I get in a car with her in that condition.

Again, my personal opinion, however I would have two categoreis of DD offences. There is the deliberate intent of going to the pub getting drunk and driving home and then there is the morning after the night before scenario.
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never heard someone say "pretty sure I'm still drunk from last night" at work/uni? That second one would be very hard to prove or make a legal distinction for...
 
Lynton said:
Personally as well as a DD limit I would like there to be some form of sobriety test as well, as the following scenario could happen.

My wife is teetotal, and always has been. (She just doesn't like the taste) Now theroretically she could have whatever alcohol to take her to marginally just under the limit (about 2 pints or so) but no way would I get in a car with her in that condition.

Again, my personal opinion, however I would have two categoreis of DD offences. There is the deliberate intent of going to the pub getting drunk and driving home and then there is the morning after the night before scenario.
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Very interesting theory, I quite like it!

I can drink vodka til the cows come home, I know I'm way over the limit but I show no signs of being drunk. Sunday evening we were at the Ally Pally for the darts, I drank a couple of large vodkas and 2 large red wines and the rest of the group I was with said I looked stone cold sobre :lol:

I bought myself and Alcosense breathaliser http://www.alcosense.co.uk/alcosense-lite.html last year just for the "morning after" scenario and it's been quite an eye opener the amount of times I've still be over/borderline until gone 10am after a good night out.
 
im very pro the drink drive campaign, and a police officer that enforces it all the time

Like its been said in the thread already... it destroys lives. There is no reason to drink drive.

Ive met many people who are over the limit and they have no idea they are over. Ive seen some horrific sights from a drink drive accident and when I was in school a friend of mine was killed by a drunk driver

it is a real shame the campaingn is only really pushed over the xmas period
 
Keebsuk said:
I personally think that the base level punishment should be harsher. If it was a minimum of an 18 month ban followed by a retest before regaining your licence, then maybe more would take notice.
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I think it ought to be a 2yr ban followed by retest and a permanent indication on their license. Any repeat offenders should then receive a lifetime ban.

I gave up drinking about 20 yrs ago, I much prefer being the designated driver and I'd prefer to be able to drive at any hour day or night should the need ever arise. I get enjoyment out of driving, drinking is of no interest to me and I can have just a good a time without alcohol.
 
nilagin said:
I think it ought to be a 2yr ban followed by retest and a permanent indication on their license. Any repeat offenders should then receive a lifetime ban.
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The guy who ran the garage next door to mine had been caught drink driving five times, he had had at least one lifetime ban, neither that nor a prison sentence proved to be any deterrent.
 
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