Choosing a DSLR dilema

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liamgdr

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Liam Robertson
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Hi people, Ive recently become interested in photography, Im not looking for
a exspensive camera, just good quality pictures.

The camera is mainly going to be used for creating my girlfriends portfolio (shes a make up artist) so there will be alot of close up detailed shots of models.

This is where it gets complicated, I dont want to spend alot, if I get into it we'll upgrade later on. Budget wise I thought £300-£350, I bought a d40 3 years ago, but after a couple of months It received water damage (or so I thought) and it was locked away until yesterday.

Anyway this camera has the 18-55mm lens which I planed to use on the new camera, which was going to be a used d70 (£150) and a flash gun (£150 aprox)

So I got to the shop and I was about to buy the d70 and flash (£300), I asked the salesman if he would buy my d40 as spares or repair, when he examined the camera he put a new battery in and to my amazement it turned on and worked flawlessly. :D (I have taken about 600 pictures on it today without a problem)

This changed my whole plan, The salesmen recomended me keeping the d40, and buying a 35mm 1.8 lens and a nissin si622 mark ii flash gun, both combined around £300. However, I dont like being put on the spot as I like to research what im buying first so I returned home, he didnt seem inpressed :lol:.

Is his recomendation a good one? or are there better options for my situation?

One idea I had was to trade in the d40 body, and buy a d80 to take advantage of the cheaper lens options, I can get a 50mm 1.8 about £100 cheaper than the 35mm 1.8 afs that is needed for the d40, and all future lenses on the d80 will be alot cheaper.


So to recap, I have:

£300 to spend
d40 with 18-55mm lens

Any suggestions on what to do? I want to stick to nikon as im used to the whole interface of the cameras, buttons etc.

I will stop story telling and let you digest what ive said :cuckoo:

Cheers, Liam.
 
I'd advise to stick with the D40 body for now.

If you're taking close up shots of models' faces, I'd go for a macro lens. There is a Nikon 40mm f/2.8 one in your budget (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nikon-AF-S-...0H2Y/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1322291721&sr=8-3), which works well for full-face portraits as well as detailed shots of say eye make-up.

In terms of flash gun, I'd consider the Nikon SB 400 for just under 100 quid.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nikon-Speed...1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1322291953&sr=1-1

In total that combo would set you back 320 quid, but should work very well for what you want to do.
 
Ive not looked into that lens before, but surely there is a lens of the same quality for cheaper that isnt af-s? and the money saved could be used for upgrading to a d80. Tell me no if im wrong.

We've looked at the sb400 but it doesnt really suit our needs, we want something that can be used on/off the camera, I think the sb4000 only works on the shoe?

Cheers, Liam.
 
There aren't all that many macro-capable Nikon lenses around. I don't think there's a non AF-S 40mm one, I'm at this point not even familiar with any older macros. So, sure you could swap the D40 for D80 anyway (won't hurt even if you end up buying an AF-S lens in the end), it's just not immediately necessary.

Not too sure about the SB400 working only on-shoe - it may do, definitely something to double check!
 
Well a trade is out of the question now, ive phoned around a few shops and the most they will give for a perfect camera and lens is £95, there selling it for £270, crooks in my eyes.

I can stretch my budget abit more if needed, what do you think of the nissin si622 mark ii, when I was first shown it in the store it seemed like a cheap copy of a sb600 but after searching the net it seems like quite a reputable company, any experience or views on them?

Ill go and have a look at the 2.8 40mm in store when I next get a chance.

Thanks.
 
liamgdr said:
Well a trade is out of the question now, ive phoned around a few shops and the most they will give for a perfect camera and lens is £95, there selling it for £270, crooks in my eyes.
Click to expand...

I'd sell it on Ebay or here rather than to a dealer if you were interested in trading it in.
 
liamgdr said:
Well a trade is out of the question now, ive phoned around a few shops and the most they will give for a perfect camera and lens is £95, there selling it for £270, crooks in my eyes.
Click to expand...

Really? the D40 was selling a year ago for around £200 with kit lens.. and it's not got any younger since. The current price seems to be under £150, which would make £95 a good offer.
 
liamgdr said:
Ive not looked into that lens before, but surely there is a lens of the same quality for cheaper that isnt af-s? and the money saved could be used for upgrading to a d80. Tell me no if im wrong.

We've looked at the sb400 but it doesnt really suit our needs, we want something that can be used on/off the camera, I think the sb4000 only works on the shoe?

Cheers, Liam.
Click to expand...
SB400 most definitely only works on camera, you need an sb600 or higher to go off camera... thought about basic manual flashes such as the yongnuo's? Cheap way to get into off camera lighting :)

I'll be looking to sell my d40 fairly soon so have been watching prices here, and with kit lens going rate seems to be £150-200 depending on condition, accessories etc. £95 does seem low from a shop, but bear in mind they've got overheads to cover and will usually include a decent warranty, so that needs to be factored in by them...
 
Alastair said:
Really? the D40 was selling a year ago for around £200 with kit lens.. and it's not got any younger since. The current price seems to be under £150, which would make £95 a good offer.
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Really, lce are selling the body for £200 and lens for £69 you can find it cheaper else where, but only about £200 so £95 still looks shocking, especially when you consider I was going to buy one of there cameras, it wasnt a cash deal.
 
ronnus said:
SB400 most definitely only works on camera, you need an sb600 or higher to go off camera... thought about basic manual flashes such as the yongnuo's? Cheap way to get into off camera lighting :)

Are they similar to the nissin flashes? Ive seen the nissin in action and it seemed pretty good, I just dont want to end up with alot of tat :help:
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I think the nissin uses ttl, meaning exposure info from your camera is sent to the flash and used to adjust power output. Yongnuo make ttl flashes, but their most basic yn460ii (around £35-40) is completely dumb. If you mount it on the hotshoe it'll fire, but only at the power you set on the flash itself. However, you can use it off camera, using the onboard flash to trigger it. This is fine indoors, but if you want to use it outside you'll need radio triggers, again yongnuo make them for around £15-20 a set.

If you want off camera ttl flash, whatever flash you get, you'll need either a flash commander, or a body that can act as one (D90 or higher). I have to say off camera ttl is incredibly clever, but probably not necessary, I'm very happy using my yongnuo and sb600 in manual mode off camera, triggered by the onboard flash :)

Confusing, I know! ;) Google "strobist" to learn more about the topic than I'll ever know...
 
liamgdr said:
Well a trade is out of the question now, ive phoned around a few shops and the most they will give for a perfect camera and lens is £95, there selling it for £270, crooks in my eyes.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Why? They offered you £95 as a trade in, and you turned it down. What's crooked about that?
 
MartynK said:
Why? They offered you £95 as a trade in, and you turned it down. What's crooked about that?
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:thinking: how is it not?

The other 6 or 7 used d40's they have in stock must have been bought for £95 quid which they are selling between £200-£270, just because I wasnt daft enough to sell mine at that price, the other 7 have been ripped off.

To add to it further, the salesmen put pressure on me to buy the lens and flash which of course I didnt buy on the spot, when I asked him can i bring it back if it hasnt been opend or used he said its not something that there store would do, I dont care if his store would do it, the law says he needs to do it!...Contributing more to the fact that they are crooks!!

Martynk, if your not going to contribute to the thread then dont bother posting.
 
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ronnus said:
I think the nissin uses ttl, meaning exposure info from your camera is sent to the flash and used to adjust power output. Yongnuo make ttl flashes, but their most basic yn460ii (around £35-40) is completely dumb. If you mount it on the hotshoe it'll fire, but only at the power you set on the flash itself. However, you can use it off camera, using the onboard flash to trigger it. This is fine indoors, but if you want to use it outside you'll need radio triggers, again yongnuo make them for around £15-20 a set.

If you want off camera ttl flash, whatever flash you get, you'll need either a flash commander, or a body that can act as one (D90 or higher). I have to say off camera ttl is incredibly clever, but probably not necessary, I'm very happy using my yongnuo and sb600 in manual mode off camera, triggered by the onboard flash :)

Confusing, I know! ;) Google "strobist" to learn more about the topic than I'll ever know...
Click to expand...

Regarding the yn460ii, I dont know alot about this, but do you mean it picks up the flash from the camera which it then copies? Sounds abit basic, another use for the camera will be shooting dh mountain biking, which of course is going to be outside in a dark forrest, so you would recomend a flash gun with ttl, and ill need a flash comander?

I think im getting the jist of this now, i was told the nissin works as a "slave unit", is this what you was desribing with the yn 460ii? But it also has ttl and in order to use this I would need a flash commander on my camera? Have I got that right?

Cheers for the help. Liam
 
liamgdr said:
:thinking: how is it not?

The other 6 or 7 used d40's they have in stock must have been bought for £95 quid which they are selling between £200-£270, just because I wasnt daft enough to sell mine at that price, the other 7 have been ripped off.

To add to it further, the salesmen put pressure on me to buy the lens and flash which of course I didnt buy on the spot, when I asked him can i bring it back if it hasnt been opend or used he said its not something that there store would do, I dont care if his store would do it, the law says he needs to do it!...Contributing more to the fact that they are crooks!!

Martynk, if your not going to contribute to the thread then dont bother posting.
Click to expand...

I think it's very unfair to call them crooks. They're a business with overheads and profit to think about. As others have said, if you want to maximise sale price for the D40, sell it on here or on ebay.

FWIW though I would look at glass first. Not a lot wrong with the D40. I too would maybe look at macro lenses for what you talk about. How about keep the D40, and get a used Tamron 90mm and a used Nissin 622 for about £300 all in.
 
liamgdr said:
I think im getting the jist of this now, i was told the nissin works as a "slave unit", is this what you was desribing with the yn 460ii? But it also has ttl and in order to use this I would need a flash commander on my camera? Have I got that right?
Click to expand...

You can use TTL with the flash mounted on the camera, of course, or using a TTL off-camera extension (about £15-25 for cables up to 10m, you probably won't get much further than that, and I doubt chaining cables together will work). Sadly, the d40 lacks the commander-mode for the pop-up flash, so it won't work as an optical slave without some form of flash commander added.

There are TTL capable radio triggers either coming soon or they may already be on the market, but they won't be cheap.

The yn460ii doesn't do Nikon's CLS slave as far as I know (as far as I'm aware none of the Yn's do CLS, they only use dumb settings in optical slave modes), it might do optical slave but it'll be limited to manual settings on the flash.

The Nissin however does do CLS slave (but as above, you'd need a commander since the d40 can't do it with the pop-up flash). CLS is... well, awkward outdoors, it works great when you can control the ambient level, but outside you'll find it occasionally won't fire.

TBH, for make-up portfolio work, you'll probably be fine with a 10m TTL cable. Though I'd also argue that you probably don't REALLY need TTL for such a controlled environment anyway.

I'd probably recommend the Nissin and a TTL cable - I have a yn467 and a di622mk2 and the di622 is most definitely more powerful, and overall feels better made. And if you do decide you want CLS at some point, you'll have that option. And perhaps keep an eye on the radio trigger market for the TTL capable ones if you feel constrained for outdoor photography later on.
 
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Ive just read what you have said again, ttl for would be to exspensive because I think I would need an exspensive flash like the sb-600 800 etc to work as a comander and then buy a second flash for of the camera. Whicj would completely blow the budget out of the water.

Really my best option would be a radio trigger and a cheaper flash? Can I use more than one flash off the camera from one radio trigger?

Thanks.
 
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liamgdr said:
Regarding the yn460ii, I dont know alot about this, but do you mean it picks up the flash from the camera which it then copies? Sounds abit basic, another use for the camera will be shooting dh mountain biking, which of course is going to be outside in a dark forrest, so you would recomend a flash gun with ttl, and ill need a flash comander?

I think im getting the jist of this now, i was told the nissin works as a "slave unit", is this what you was desribing with the yn 460ii? But it also has ttl and in order to use this I would need a flash commander on my camera? Have I got that right?

Cheers for the help. Liam
Click to expand...
Nope, it doesn't copy the flash output, the flash is merely triggered by your on-board flash. Slave unit refers to using a flash commander to send ttl info to the off camera flash. For downhill mtb you might struggle with any off camera flash, assuming that's what you mean? I'm no expert, but if I was using my d40 for those duties I'd be using a fast lens and my sb600 mounted firmly on the camera! I may be entirely wrong but off camera flash is usually deployed on static subjects :)

Also regarding the price offered by lce, as I said earlier £95 sounds maybe a little mean, as did the behaviour of the salesperson, but as I also said camera shop owners have to cover fairly substantial overheads, as well as the risk around warranty. I wouldn't expect much over £115 from my local shop, which they would then sell for £250. That's the economics of buying/selling used gear! Unbalanced? Maybe, but crooked? Almost definitely not :)
 
liamgdr said:
Ive just read what you have said again, ttl for we be to exspensive because I think I would need an exspensive flash like the sb-600 800 etc to work as a comander and then buy a second flash for of the camera. Whicj would completely blow the budget out of the water.

Really my best option would be a radio trigger and a cheaper flash? Can I use more than one flash off the camera from one radio trigger?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

You can use as many flash as you want slaved from one trigger, of course. But that's with manual-only triggers, I don't know how the TTL-capable triggers handle it.

The RadioPoppers will likely blow your entire budget before you get to one flash working (official price is $250 for each transceiver), the Pixel 'King' trigger set is the 'budget' option for TTL-over-radio, but last time I checked it was Canon only with the Nikon version being 'coming soon', that was a couple of months ago. They may be on the market now, those should be somewhere around £100 for a set.

The Yn triggers (Yn-602/Yn-603) that everyone is mentioning only fire the flash manually, although as I said, TTL isn't quite so important in a controlled studio setting.

Phottix also make some TTL triggers, but they're even pricier than RadioPoppers.

Edit:

It would appear that Pixel's 'King' is still unavailable for Nikon, however the slightly lower speced 'Knight' transceivers still do TTL and the Nikon versions of those ARE available now, as seen here (first ebay result, no affiliation at all):

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pixel-Kni...=Camera_Flash_Accessories&hash=item1e64fc197e
 
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gad-westy said:
I think it's very unfair to call them crooks. They're a business with overheads and profit to think about. As others have said, if you want to maximise sale price for the D40, sell it on here or on ebay.



FWIW though I would look at glass first. Not a lot wrong with the D40. I too would maybe look at macro lenses for what you talk about. How about keep the D40, and get a used Tamron 90mm and a used Nissin 622 for about £300 all in.
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Fair enough, I dont think its a good deal but they can offer whatever they want, but not obeying by trading laws is another matter, along with pc world, currys and vodafone. Lce is another company I will never deal with.

Yeh, ive decided to keep the d40 now and invest in decent lenses which would work well on a better body in the future.

The tamron wont auto focus will it? I think ill probably be getting the nissin 622.
 
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liamgdr said:
The tamron wont auto focus will it? I think ill probably be getting the nissin 622.
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I think there's two versions of the AF 90mm Macro, the Di and the Di-II, the Di-II (product '272E-ii') claims to have a focus motor included, so SHOULD auto-focus on a d40.

Edit: apparently 3 versions, a pre-'Di' version that lacked the motor, a Di version that has the motor (code 272EN) and the 'Di-II version' that is probably grey market since it's not listed on tamrom's European site (code 272EN-ii)
 
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NikkiA said:
I think there's two versions of the AF 90mm Macro, the Di and the Di-II, the Di-II (product '272E-ii') claims to have a focus motor included, so SHOULD auto-focus on a d40.
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Spot on, I have this very lens and it works fine on my d40. And a lovely lens it is, but the lack of vr means I've never used it off a tripod. Should probably man up and try :)
 
NikkiA said:
I think there's two versions of the AF 90mm Macro, the Di and the Di-II, the Di-II (product '272E-ii') claims to have a focus motor included, so SHOULD auto-focus on a d40.
Click to expand...

Wasnt aware of that, ill do abit of searching, cheers.



Im fed up of talking about trading in the d40. So, can we please keep all this on topic, that is I have £300 to spend on a flash and lens for a d40 used or new.

The lens needs to be good for close ups of models.

The flash needs to work of the camera indoors (outdoors if possible)

To recap my choices:

nikon 40mm 2.8
tamron 90mm di-II

Flashes:

Nissin di622 mark II
Still need to look into the yongnuo's
 
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liamgdr said:
Wasnt aware of that, ill do abit of searching, cheers.



Im fed up of talking about trading in the d40. So, can we please keep all this on topic, that is I have £300 to spend on a flash and lens for a d40 used or new.

The lens needs to be good for close ups of models.

The flash needs to work of the camera indoors (outdoors if possible)
Click to expand...

Well, I'd go with a Di622mk2, a pixel brand TTL cable and then magically find the extra £100 or so that will bring buying the Tamron back under your budget..

Problem solved :D

(£300 for a decent flash and a decent lens is cutting it a little too fine really, you'll likely have to scrimp on one or the other, good close-up lenses don't really exist that cheap :/
 
liamgdr said:
Wasnt aware of that, ill do abit of searching, cheers.

Im fed up of talking about trading in the d40. So, can we please keep all this on topic, that is I have £300 to spend on a flash and lens for a d40 used or new.

The lens needs to be good for close ups of models.

The flash needs to work of the camera indoors (outdoors if possible)
Click to expand...
Hang on, what happened to downhill mtb?! ;)

I notice you mentioned the 35mm 1.8 before, as far a I'm concerned no Nikon shooter should be without this lens. The 50mm 1.8 won't af on your d40. I own both, and don't get on with the fifty, even on a body that autofocuses.

So, get a used 35mm, and a used sb600, and all will be right with the world. Maybe ;)

Also, this is a public forum, people will say things you don't like :thumbs:
 
ronnus said:
Hang on, what happened to downhill mtb?! ;)

I notice you mentioned the 35mm 1.8 before, as far a I'm concerned no Nikon shooter should be without this lens. The 50mm 1.8 won't af on your d40. I own both, and don't get on with the fifty, even on a body that autofocuses.

So, get a used 35mm, and a used sb600, and all will be right with the world. Maybe ;)

Also, this is a public forum, people will say things you don't like :thumbs:
Click to expand...

Downhill mtb isnt a majour priority, I was think of just using the 18-55 for now, do you think the 35mm would strike a good balance for both situations, models/bikes etc.

Having a sb600 would also work as a commander wouldnt it? So in the future I could a di-622, are there any other cheaper flashes that work as commanders.

My only gripe with using cables is that when shooting mtb I would place the flash on the other side of the trail, so the riders be riding over the cable, not a problem for shooting the models though.
 
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liamgdr said:
Downhill mtb isnt a majour priority, I was think of just using the 18-55 for now, do you think the 35mm would strike a good balance for both situations, models/bikes etc.

Having a sb600 would also work as a commander wouldnt it? So in the future I could a di-622, are there any other cheaper flashes that work as commanders.

My only gripe with using cables is that when shooting mtb I would place the flash on the other side of the trail, so the riders be riding over the cable, not a problem for shooting the models though.
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Sounds like maybe you're looking for a portrait lens, in which case 35mm is probably too short. What about the 60mm micro nikkor? Meant to be good at a lot of things, but perversely slightly too short for macro! No idea of cost, but I assume it'd blow the budget with flash on top... I personally think that the 90mm is too long for anything other than macro or portraits, but ymmv.

Yes, the sb600 will work in commander mode, but then it can't be used to light your scene, which seems a tad wasteful... but whatever works for you :)

I've never used a cable on a modern camera so can't comment.

Edit: bear in mind if you buy used you'll lose little to no money when you sell on if its not for you ;)
 
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liamgdr said:
My only gripe with using cables is that when shooting mtb I would place the flash on the other side of the trail, so the riders be riding over the cable, not a problem for shooting the models though.
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I think you'd want radio for that kind of use, I certainly wouldn't trust CLS (or non-CLS optical slaving) in that situation, and cables are a no-go for that (they're probably going to be coiled cables so not even remotely safe to ride over even if you stretch the coil out of it - interfit make a non-coiled 10m TTL cable, but it's about double the price of Pixel's (£50, roughly the same price as Nikon's own TTL cable)).
 
NikkiA said:
I think you'd want radio for that kind of use, I certainly wouldn't trust CLS (or non-CLS optical slaving) in that situation, and cables are a no-go for that (they're probably going to be coiled cables so not even remotely safe to ride over even if you stretch the coil out of it - interfit make a non-coiled 10m TTL cable, but it's about double the price of Pixel's (£50, roughly the same price as Nikon's own TTL cable)).
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This is becoming awfully complicated now :lol:

So, ttl is out of the question as I dont have a flash commander.

The only way I can have an off camera flash outdoors is buy using a radio trigger?

I could use a flash indoors in slave mode, if I also use the pop up flash.

Im right?
 
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liamgdr said:
I could use a flash indoors in slave mode, if I also use the pop up flash.

Im right?
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Not in TTL mode, no, the pop-up flash can trigger a manual-mode slave, but the SB600 only supports CLS for wireless flash. A 3rd party flash from Nissin, Yongnuo, Metz or whoever would work in manual like this though (assuming it supports optical slave, the di622 can work as a dumb optical slave, or a CLS slave, for example).

I know a lot of people see CLS as one of the major reasons to go with the Nikon platform, and thus a used SB600 is attractive as a flash. But on a tight budget and not having a built-in CLS compatible commander? I'm not sure that I see the advantage of going with CLS, you're going to have to buy two flashes, and the SB600 isn't really as flexible as 3rd party flashes.

If you really want to use CLS, I'd recommend borrowing/renting a pair of SB600s, and try them outdoors, that way you'll find out if they'll reliably trigger in the light conditions you're expecting. (Only problem here is that you might really want to test with actual bikes in the picture, as reflections off shiny bike bits might cause problems too).

Since you said the mtb was not so high a priority, I'd probably just aim at a wired TTL setup using whichever flash you prefer and save for a radio kit to use the flash outdoors later. A used SB600 would offer some advantages here - you'd have a commander if you DO want to go CLS rather than radio later, but it's also lower power rating than the 3rd parties, and I'm not sure how much of an issue that'll be for makeup photography.

I don't know much about the mtb scene, but I have a strong suspicion that we're out of season for it now, so we're talking about the potential to photograph mtb next spring/summer, in which case worrying about an extra £100 now might be pointless anyway.
 
NikkiA said:
The problem with strobist for advice on this, is that they're very very heavily biased towards manual-mode flash.

And while I personally tend to use my flashes more in manual than TTL (using home-made 3.5mm sync cables), I can understand the point of wanting to use TTL in the sort of situation liam is talking about.
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Fair play, I've never played with cables but will undoubtedly at some point... and yeh, cls is very impressive, but also brand-specific, hence I'm not getting to excited about it :)
 
liamgdr said:
To add to it further, the salesmen put pressure on me to buy the lens and flash which of course I didnt buy on the spot, when I asked him can i bring it back if it hasnt been opend or used he said its not something that there store would do, I dont care if his store would do it, the law says he needs to do it!...Contributing more to the fact that they are crooks!!

Martynk, if your not going to contribute to the thread then dont bother posting.
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What law? I think you're confusing this with distance selling, or returning faulty goods. Retailers aren't under any obligation to take goods back, just because you've changed your mind, unless they've agreed to do so or it's their policy.

The fact remains, the store made you an offer and you declined it. Fair enough. No-one has cheated anyone or defrauded them, and I wouldn't carry on accusing a retailer of being 'crooks' and 'crooked' on a public forum.
 
MartynK said:
What law? I think you're confusing this with distance selling, or returning faulty goods. Retailers aren't under any obligation to take goods back, just because you've changed your mind, unless they've agreed to do so or it's their policy.

The fact remains, the store made you an offer and you declined it. Fair enough. No-one has cheated anyone or defrauded them, and I wouldn't carry on accusing a retailer of being 'crooks' and 'crooked' on a public forum.
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Will you please stop posting irrelevant crap in my thread.

And no im not confussed, in a bit more detail this is what hapend. I did not understand if the lens he was trying to sell me was actually what I needed for shooting close ups of models.

After talking on here to a few people ive discoverd I need a macro lens, what I asked the salesmen was "can I bring it back once ive researched it on the internet". As he was really pushy for me to buy it that day.

So basically its not the correct lens for my needs and legally I should have been able to return under the sales of goods act under not fit for purpose.

And as far as me accusing them as crooks, its a very light accusation, one that has been blown up and drawn out by you and a bunch of keyboard warriors on this forum, honestly what help are you contributing to this thread? :thinking:.............:shrug:

:cuckoo:
 
MartynK, as I have already asked you not to post off topic, which you ignored.

May I make you aware of one of the forum rules under general conduct.

"Please don't take forum threads "Off Topic". However, the 'original poster' ("OP") of the thread is given more leniency to do so."

Do not post again unless it is about lens or flash suggestions.

Thankyou
 
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