Cheapest Full Frame DSLR?

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matt99b

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Does anyone know what the cheapest FF DSLR is at the moment?

I just bought a Canon 350D and getting frustrated with the 1.6x crop factor. Can't get the DOF I want at the distance I want. A 50mm lens turns into a 80mm lens, which means I have to move further back from the subject, and hence get more DOF when what I want is less, tighter DOF.

Anyone who's used to FF 35mm SLRs will know what I'm talking about.

It's very frustrating!

The funny thing is, I've read in many forum posts that many young photogs of the DSLR generation seems to think that the smaller sensor size gives "more DOF, so that the background is more blurry"... this is a contradiction and completely wrong:

a.) If the "background is more blurry", thats LESS DOF, not MORE. (gosh.) The less the DOF, the less is in focus.

b.) Smaller sensor size results in more things being in focus. Larger sensor size results in less things being in focus, i.e. less DOF.

I'm into taking headshots, and used to be able to take headshots with the back of the hair/head out of focus, whilst the front of the head (eyes, face..etc) are in focus. I managed to do this without getting a fish-eye effect through being too close to the subject. And I managed to get the whole head and shoulders in the shot. With a FF 35mm camera.

Now that we have these blasted 1.6x DSLR things I can't even manage the above anymore, yet everywhere I go I find people raving about how great the crop factor is and how it enhances the range of lenses. Who wants to crop a 50mm into an 80mm lens when you can crop it on the PC if you wanted to anyway (as long as you have enough res in the pic which you should with today's DSLR specs), or go out any buy a freaking 80mm lens in the first place? Whats frustrating is you can't turn an 80mm lens into a 50mm lens, regardless of what post-production software you have. So really, these smaller sensors are nothing but limiting.

Am I the only person who thinks this way?

Sorry for the long moan. I hadn't intended this post to turn into this! I probably sound like an old man. I'm actually 27, I just started photography at a very young age and finally turned to digital recently.

I got this 350D thinking heck this is a bargain, I can continue my professional headshot work with this thing, but now after testing it out, I think I'm going to have to shell out on a 5D. The smaller sensor of the 350D is too creatively limiting.

:thumbsdown:
 
5d is the cheapest full frame :lol: will set you back about £1300 and canon are offering £150 cashback at the mo
 
thanks image29...

Am I the only person who thinks this way here?

Does anyone else have difficulty with geting the short DOF they want with cropped?
 
With you entirely on this - I just bought a 35mm SLR and am loving it!
 
You have to take it into consideration when buying lenses. Never really bothered me.:D

2091296304_148dc4a2fb.jpg


Just buy shorter focal length, to accomodate the cop factor.
 
Doesn't seem to bother me either, this taken using an E-3, which is a 4/3 camera.

50mm lens @f2

model_eyes-2.jpg
 
It would be cheaper to buy a different lens.
 
Nice shot MM.
 
Has never bothered me, either.
The virtual zoom you get with telephoto lenses is a benefit.

Just get lenses with a big aperture. The 50mm 1.4 is about £200 and I've heard its incredible.

As far as the crop factor goes, buy lenses to accommodate it. If you want true 50mm, the Canon 35mm f/2 is only about £170. Its effectively 56mm.

Or, fork out £1300 for the 5D.
 
The crop factor has no affect on DOF, 1.6, 1.3, 1.1 it's all the same. It does affect field of view but not depth of field
 
Hi Matt and welcome,
Simply put, the issue of differing DOF can be overcome by lens choice and subject positioning although there may be a sacrifice on the perspective (there can also be an improvement in perspective though).
My personal feelings are that shallow DOF can help creativity but it depends what the lens does with the OOF highlights and hence the quality of the lens has a big impact.
I use FF and APS-C bodies and find each have their own advantages that simply adjusting the focal length can't cover....horses for courses and there isn't a right and wrong and an experience tog could probably achieve the same result with either format.
Bob
 
Steep said:
The crop factor has no affect on DOF, 1.6, 1.3, 1.1 it's all the same. It does affect field of view but not depth of field
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Can't quite agree with you on this, old man.

Let's not hijack the thread but when you only use the sweet spot of the lens and not the edges you are bound to lose DOF.

By lose I mean lose shallowness...
 
Fionab said:
Now i am a relative beginner compared to a lot of folk on here, and i have had NO film experience whatsoever....... but i would have thought it was as easy to buy a lens with shorter length than buying a full frame camera?

Fi
Click to expand...

Fi, you are spot on but that will have a slight effect on your ability to throw a background out of focus. So if you get e 35mm lens instead of a 50 that you may have used FF. It will have a slightly larger DoF so you do have to work around things a little.

Going the other way, if you shoot medium format for example, then getting a large DoF with a wide lens can be more tricky as you'd be shooting with a 50mm, rather than 20mm odd.

Oh and I do believe that the cheapest FF option could probably be a used 1Ds. Old as the hills but it still shakes a damn fine booty. :)
 
I think it's spot on the subject Anton so no hijack, if you set up a 400d and a 5d with say a 50mm f1.8 shooting the same scene at the same f/stop the dof will be identical on each. The field of view will change but the area of sharp focus front to back has to be the same since it's a result of focal length versus f/stop only.
 
You could pick up an old 1Ds for £1k from Harbour48 off eBay or grab a 5D for £1300 new.
 
h4rri said:
You could pick up an old 1Ds for £1k from Harbour48 off eBay or grab a 5D for £1300 new.
Click to expand...

I think that's a tougher choice to call than it looks on paper.

The 1Ds is not all that on noise/ISO performance despite it's age due to those great big chunk monkey pixels and the 5D is not actually all that great.

The 5 is a fab camera and in it comfort zone it produces images that'll run any DSLR close for any money but in 12 months will it still have 80% of it's current value? The 1Ds will......

The tit for tat pros and cons argument goes on and on with these two bodies.
 
I've got a 5D and a 20D and I have to say that since I got the 5D I hardly use the 20D. It is useful if I want the extra reach on a 100-400mm and if I was shooting sports, motorsport or ariel then yes I would welcome the 1.6 crop factor.

For people the 5D is just superb. I've not used a 1Ds so I can't compare those two like dazzajl can. There are rumours about the 5D being replaced, which Canon are not admitting to, so do consider residuals in your purchase. You could get the best of everything and buy a 2nd hand 5D? But you can't have mine! ;)
 
matt99b said:
I just bought a Canon 350D and getting frustrated with the 1.6x crop factor. Can't get the DOF I want at the distance I want. A 50mm lens turns into a 80mm lens, which means I have to move further back from the subject, and hence get more DOF when what I want is less, tighter DOF.

Anyone who's used to FF 35mm SLRs will know what I'm talking about.
Click to expand...

The simple answer is to open up a stop or so to decrease the DoF and counteract the effect of the decreased magnification.
 
Steep said:
I think it's spot on the subject Anton so no hijack, if you set up a 400d and a 5d with say a 50mm f1.8 shooting the same scene at the same f/stop the dof will be identical on each. The field of view will change but the area of sharp focus front to back has to be the same since it's a result of focal length versus f/stop only.
Click to expand...

I will go and test this over the weekend and get back with results:thumbs:
 
Steep said:
I think it's spot on the subject Anton so no hijack, if you set up a 400d and a 5d with say a 50mm f1.8 shooting the same scene at the same f/stop the dof will be identical on each. The field of view will change but the area of sharp focus front to back has to be the same since it's a result of focal length versus f/stop only.
Click to expand...

This is almost correct but in order to shoot an identical scene you'd need to move the 400D further away which reduces the magnification (note magnification and aperture define DoF, not the focal length) therefore increasing the DoF and that's the point the OP is making. The solution is simple ***, open up another stop or so :thumbs:
 
Steep said:
I think it's spot on the subject Anton so no hijack, if you set up a 400d and a 5d with say a 50mm f1.8 shooting the same scene at the same f/stop the dof will be identical on each. The field of view will change but the area of sharp focus front to back has to be the same since it's a result of focal length versus f/stop only.
Click to expand...

I think you are both right. What the original poster said was that you then have to move further away to get the same field of view, which gives you a deeper depth of field in absolute terms because it is relative to the distance you are from the subject.

I never got on with 1.6 crop camera having come from 35mm. However, I think if you get the right lenses it can be fine. I missed a standard zoom (my 24-70 felt too long) but a 17-40 can make a good standard zoom with a 10-20/22 a good wide angle. Getting new lenses can be cheaper than a full frame body!
 
sbowler579 said:
You have to take it into consideration when buying lenses. Never really bothered me.:D

2091296304_148dc4a2fb.jpg


Just buy shorter focal length, to accomodate the cop factor.
Click to expand...

Sbowler... no can do - shorter focal lengths result in more of the background behind the subject being seen. E.g. 18mm has a fish eye effect. And makes headshots look dreadful. So it's not as simple as buying shorter focal length to accommodate the crop factor.
 
theMusicMan said:
Doesn't seem to bother me either, this taken using an E-3, which is a 4/3 camera.

50mm lens @f2

model_eyes-2.jpg
Click to expand...

Your photo is a close-up of the eyes. Try taking the same sort of shot, but with head and shoulders included. You have to move back so far that the DOF becomes much larger. Try it, you'll see what I'm talking about.
 
Steep said:
The crop factor has no affect on DOF, 1.6, 1.3, 1.1 it's all the same. It does affect field of view but not depth of field
Click to expand...

Correct, but in affecting the field of view, you have to move further away from the subject to compensate, and this effectively affects your ability to get a shorter DOF for the same shot.

This is all just words Steep; what we're all talking about is the same thing. Lets not worry about words.
 
matt99b said:
Your photo is a close-up of the eyes. Try taking the same sort of shot, but with head and shoulders included. You have to move back so far that the DOF becomes much larger. Try it, you'll see what I'm talking about.
Click to expand...

At the risk of repeating myself, move further away and open up to compensate. It's not rocket science :bang: :lol:
 
Steep said:
I think it's spot on the subject Anton so no hijack, if you set up a 400d and a 5d with say a 50mm f1.8 shooting the same scene at the same f/stop the dof will be identical on each. The field of view will change but the area of sharp focus front to back has to be the same since it's a result of focal length versus f/stop only.
Click to expand...

Ah, but in this thread we're talking about shooting the same PICTURE not the same SCENE! Therefore you're missing the point, my friend;

If you shoot the same picture (eg headshots), you WANT the same field of view. So you move further away from the subject with the 400D in order to compensate. Hence the area of sharp focus front to back has to be different for the same picture on a 400D vs. the same picture on a 5D.

That is what everyone in this thread is talking about ;)
 
pxl8 said:
At the risk of repeating myself, move further away and open up to compensate. It's not rocket science :bang: :lol:
Click to expand...

At the risk of repeating myself, try it. You'll find that if you're shooting at f/1.8 with a f/1.8 lens, you can't open up any more!

And even if you have a f/1.4 lens, this will not be enough to compensate for a 1.8 on FF. If you read the posts above you'll understand. ;)
 
pxl8 said:
The simple answer is to open up a stop or so to decrease the DoF and counteract the effect of the decreased magnification.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I should have been clearer. The point I was trying to make is that in order to open up to equivalent of 1.8 on a cropped lens you would need to open up to 1.1. And there are no lenses that do this (or maybe there is somewhere but it would be damn expensive)
 
after reading more of these posts, I'm thinkig more and more about getting a FF SLR.... and what it'll do to my bank account! Because whilst I agree its a big amount to spend for such a simple change, I just cant seem to get around this crop factor at the moment. Maybe I need to keep trying.

I'll try a few more headshots and see if I'm satisfied.
 
If you're already shooting wide open then you don't really have much choice :shrug:
 
Hmmm, have you tried front focusing slightly to compensate?
 
blinkerz said:
I heard you need an aperture that is 1.6x as fast to replicate DoF on a 1.6 crop body, ie f/0.87 on crop to replicate f/1.4 on FF, is this true?
Click to expand...

A lot of people seem to misunderstand the basics of DOF.
DOF is affected by magnification and lens aperture, not by crop factor, not by focal length of lens.

By lens aperture, I mean actual (or effective) aperture, not the f/number, which is nothing more than a mathmatical calculation.

An actual lens aperture of say 10mm will produce exactly the same DOF at any given magnification on a 20mm lens as an aperture of 10mm on a 200 mm lens - but the f/number will be different, i.e.

10mm aperture on 20mm lens = f/2 (20/10)
10mm aperture on 200mm lens - f/20 (200/10)

So, 10mm aperture on 50mm lens = f/5
10mm aperture on 28mm lens = f/2.8
10mm aperture on 14mm lens = f/1.4
 
However, it does work IF you're looking to create exactly the same image on the 1.6x that you'd get on a FF sensor.

You move the 1.6x crop 1.6x further away from the subject which in turn decreases magnification by 1.6x. In turn that means the DoF has increased so to compensate you can increase the size of the aperture by 1.6x - the result is an identical image on both cameras. You can check the figures by entering them into one of the DoF calculators, here's one set I checked it with:

FF
85mm, 10ft, f/16 = 4.1ft DoF

1.6x
85mm, 16ft, f/16 = 6.73ft DoF
85mm, 16ft, f/10 = 4.13ft DoF

Note there'll be a slight difference because the 1.6x is only an approximate value.
 
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