CHARITY STARTS AT HOME

ST4 said:
Doesn't this country have a budget deficit, shouldn't it be plugging that before giving British money abroad?

Charity organisations are voluntary, and people can donate to these as they see fit, but tax revenue should only be spent in Britain, for Britons.
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Ok then Steve, would you please answer this question with a yes or no, just for clarity?

Take Taiti and the earthquake that decimated the country in pretty much every conceivable way, would you deny sending any aid or help whilst our economy is in slight* defecit?

I say slight as ours is far from the worst economy in the world.
 
fracster said:
Ok then Steve, would you please answer this question with a yes or no, just for clarity?

Take Taiti and the earthquake that decimated the country in pretty much every conceivable way, would you deny sending any aid or help whilst our economy is in slight* defecit?

I say slight as ours is far from the worst economy in the world.
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I wouldn't have sent it. We have charity organisations that assist out of peoples own pocket. If you call multiple billions slight then you are a much richer man than I. There are potholes that need fixed, ageing submarines that need replaced, borders that could do with more effective patrolling, NHS, schools etc that all could do with that money.

All IMHO, but the answer to your question is NO. I would not have sent aid.
 
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My opinion mirrors the title of this thread "Charity starts at home". We have to suffer with budget cuts, tax increases, etc, yet they are able to give \way those figures?

Look after your own, it's the way it SHOULD be.
 
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fracster said:
I see TP`s charitable side is alive and well. A bit of human kindness to other less fortunate people does not bother me one jot. If some of my tax money goes to some people who have to walk 5 miles for "fresh" water every day, so be it.

Though I dislike UK tax money going to countries that spend more on military machinary than they do feeding their own people.

How one can quantify exactly where the money goes and what it is spent on should be the discussion, for me anyway.
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Yep, sadly all too often these days it seems there's a real lack of charity on TP at least in some cases...as I said earlier in the thread, saying this country has problems that need sorting before those problems we are trying to help in those counties really is such a sad attitude...

Let's face it we need drinking water in this country...we turn the tap on

We have to travel 100 miles, we catch a clean, reliable train (on average) with a seat or we jump in our car for a couple of hours, if we need fuel that's not a problem...

We have a accident, there's emergency medical service that will normally get to you within 8 minutes, same goes for fire and rescue service, and police...that or most people are within 30 minute drive of there nearest A&E

We want or need food, well there's thoudands of places to buy food...

Money, access to our own money is easy, we have a safe and secure banking system that is guaranteed by our government

That's just a few things, are there problems with some of them, yeah of course there are but pretty much all the counties we send aid don't come close to covering all of those
 
Rapscallion said:
And despite you pointing out this as pure nonsense, the usual suspects lap it....
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So we do not give British revenue abroad when there are fiscal problems here? That's just complete twaddle.

The message is simple enough, you either agree with it or not.

MWHCVT said:
Yep, sadly all too often these days it seems there's a real lack of charity on TP at least in some cases...as I said earlier in the thread, saying this country has problems that need sorting before those problems we are trying to help in those counties really is such a sad attitude...
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Yawn.
 
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MNDec said:
The aid doesnt necessarily go to the governments. It is often to Ngo's who carry out work in those countries.

I never can really understsnd the looking after our own bit. Who are our own? Do you draw the barrier at your continent, country, town? We are all humans and some have a really s***ty existence. Poorest people I know here still have Sky.

Of course with the looking after our own, a lot of my tax goes to people who claim benefit and have no plan to ever work. If I had to choose 'my own' it would be those who lost all in the Haitian earthquake than lazy gits here.
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I take "our own" to mean those who contributed to the pot of money ;)
 
MWHCVT said:
Free at the point of use ;) you pedant you :P
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No it isn't either, some of us have to pay for our medication etc after already paying a huge sum of money in tax.

People should really stop believing this concept that the NHS is free. The NHS costs us around £11Bn per month to keep running. That is a huge amount of money.
 
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dejongj said:
No it isn't either, some of us have to pay for our medication etc after already paying a huge sum of money in tax.

People should really stop believing this concept that the NHS is free. The NHS costs us around £11Bn per month to keep running. That is a huge amount of money.
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It does, but is probably worth it IMHO. Given the cost of private healthcare most tax payers are better off with the economies of scale the NHS brings ie pooling resources with every other tax payer in the UK (rather than pooling resources with smaller different insurance providers). Just needs the fat trimming from it but the principle is a solid one.
 
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ST4 said:
So we do not give British revenue abroad when there are fiscal problems here? That's just complete twaddle.

The message is simple enough, you either agree with it or not.



Yawn.
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If you want to base your arguments on the absolute lies and disinformation that this thread has been shown be, then carry on with your spittle filled rants with the usual bedfellows. But those who knowingly base their arguments on proven lies are clearly idiots.
 
Rapscallion said:
If you want to base your arguments on the absolute lies and disinformation that this thread has been shown be, then carry on with your spittle filled rants with the usual bedfellows. But those who knowingly bases their arguments on proven lies are clearly idiots.
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Just for clarification, does British tax revenue leave Britain for foreign aid.

Last time I checked, we sent some to India, who has its own space program....

As you were.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...ship-to-Mars-after-UK-gives-280million-in-aid
 
Thread unfollowed. I shall leave it to the gullible to continue to rant at lies.
 
I don't think it is at all. I think the range of services that the NHS has to provide is so wide ranging that it is too big to manage effectively and channel where it is required. It is too nannying in many ways. More targeted privatisation and less socialistic tendencies, with more focus on health economics will make it fit for current day use. And possibly the next two generations.

The worlds fifth biggest employer in a small country like the UK with no inherent remit for globalisation. If that doesn't tell you it isn't yet up for the future then I don't know what is. It also highlights a much bigger issue to me. Why do so few people in the UK require so many health services? Are we making issues out of stuff that really shouldn't be an issue in the first place. The root cause in my opinion isn't the NHS, however it is way too big for a national organisation. And still they complain they haven't got enough resources. Hmm something not right there.
 
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ST4 said:
Yawn.
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Is that really the best that you can do, if it is it's pathetic, I'd assumed I was talking to someone who had a metal age of just lightly above 5 however responses like that make me question my assumption

dejongj said:
No it isn't either, some of us have to pay for our medication etc after already paying a huge sum of money in tax.

People should really stop believing this concept that the NHS is free. The NHS costs us around £11Bn per month to keep running. That is a huge amount of money.
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Fully aware that most people have to pay for prescriptions I pay £105 a year for my own prescriptions, however a large number of people don't have to pay for them....and of course I know we do actually pay for the NHS though taxation I'm not a complete idiot you know, but we all know exactly what free at the point of access means...and its a little sad you need to drag out about the only thing that isn't free to all, though its free to most that are likely to need some long term medication
 
I think its really rather sad that people actually belive that sort of email. As @neil_g has so abley pointed out that email is nothing more then a debunked rumour doing the rounds for the guilable to believe. I recieved a slightly more believable email from a Nigerean lady promising me $100,000,000 for the use of my bank account earlier. Maybe I should forward to certain members here so they can take the offer up?
 
MWHCVT said:
Is that really the best that you can do, if it is it's pathetic, I'd assumed I was talking to someone who had a metal age of just lightly above 5 however responses like that make me question my assumption



Fully aware that most people have to pay for prescriptions I pay £105 a year for my own prescriptions, however a large number of people don't have to pay for them....and of course I know we do actually pay for the NHS though taxation I'm not a complete idiot you know, but we all know exactly what free at the point of access means...and its a little sad you need to drag out about the only thing that isn't free to all, though its free to most that are likely to need some long term medication
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Free at point of use still doesn't make it free. Heck if I go to chessington world of adventures, I pay my £40/person online. And I can go on any ride all day. Totally free at point of use. Ahem, no, I've paid for it.

Medication is an easy example, however there are other elements. I required a scan, the NHS would take six months waiting and in that time my home wouldn't be insured. So what can you do but to pay for it yourself, again and twice over.

It really isn't free and it annoys me when people treat it like it is.
 
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boyfalldown said:
I think its really rather sad that people actually belive that sort of email. As @neil_g has so abley pointed out that email is nothing more then a debunked rumour doing the rounds for the guilable to believe. I recieved a slightly more believable email from a Nigerean lady promising me $100,000,000 for the use of my bank account earlier. Maybe I should forward to certain members here so they can take the offer up?
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If you pay me £4,000 to undo the blockage at the courts then I happily give you the money back once I've got my cheque.
 
dejongj said:
I required a scan, the NHS would take six months waiting and in that time my home wouldn't be insured.
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I'm wondering why a medical condition would affect your home insurance?. If you'd rather not say, or its too much prying then ignore me.
 
dejongj said:
I don't think it is at all. I think the range of services that the NHS has to provide is so wide ranging that it is too big to manage effectively and channel where it is required. It is too nannying in many ways. More targeted privatisation and less socialistic tendencies, with more focus on health economics will make it fit for current day use. And possibly the next two generations.

The worlds fifth biggest employer in a small country like the UK with no inherent remit for globalisation. If that doesn't tell you it isn't yet up for the future then I don't know what is. It also highlights a much bigger issue to me. Why do so few people in the UK require so many health services? Are we making issues out of stuff that really shouldn't be an issue in the first place. The root cause in my opinion isn't the NHS, however it is way too big for a national organisation. And still they complain they haven't got enough resources. Hmm something not right there.
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I present to you my tipping point theory. Economies of scale bring consumers a good deal. The consumer being the UK tax payers. The larger the organisation, the larger the economy of scale. However, with scale, comes inertia and operational inefficiency. As the organisation grows, the interia begins to mean the organisation cannot keep pace with the times, it employs too many people and deploys them inefficiency and often not in the interest of their consumers...

This can be seen not only in the NHS, but also a company like Tesco. Ie the tipping point is reached and inertia/opperational efficiency counteract the economy of scale.

NHS needs a good trim.
 
ST4 said:
Just for clarification, does British tax revenue leave Britain for foreign aid.

Last time I checked, we sent some to India, who has its own space program....

As you were.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...ship-to-Mars-after-UK-gives-280million-in-aid
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My point remains unanswered?

MWHCVT said:
Is that really the best that you can do, if it is it's pathetic, I'd assumed I was talking to someone who had a metal age of just lightly above 5 however responses like that make me question my assumption
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The sanctimony of your post put me to sleep. Sorry.
 
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boyfalldown said:
I'm wondering why a medical condition would affect your home insurance?. If you'd rather not say, or its too much prying then ignore me.
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Sorry I worded that badly, it affected my mortgage, their risk assessment and thus our home. In the end it was all false alarm based on a wrong diagnoses of the first test.
 
norters said:
You're not a very nice boy are you?
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???? Someone make a nasty insult, I thought the response was very constraint. I would have punched that fella one. :God:
 
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dejongj said:
Sorry I worded that badly, it affected my mortgage, their risk assessment and thus our home. In the end it was all false alarm based on a wrong diagnoses of the first test.
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That makes sense now :)
 
ST4 said:
I present to you my tipping point theory. Economies of scale bring consumers a good deal. The consumer being the UK tax payers. The larger the organisation, the larger the economy of scale. However, with scale, comes inertia and operational inefficiency. As the organisation grows, the interia begins to mean the organisation cannot keep pace with the times, it employs too many people and deploys them inefficiency and often not in the interest of their consumers...

This can be seen not only in the NHS, but also a company like Tesco. Ie the tipping point is reached and inertia/opperational efficiency counteract the economy of scale.

NHS needs a good trim.
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I don't think it is a theory unique to you :) the diversification is so immense yet they insist on running it as one organisation. And the response to everything is more people and money and never to do it differently. It was great when it was implemented (wasn't it implemented by Tories?) but it has been kept back and stuck in seventies style labour Britain. It needs to change and broken up and become transparent.
 
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dejongj said:
I don't think it is a theory unique to you :) the diversification is so immense yet they insist on running it as one organisation. And the response to everything is more people and money and never to do it differently. It was great when it was implemented (wasn't it implemented by Tories?) but it has been kept back and stuck in seventies style labour Britain. It needs to change and broken up and become transparent.
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The unionised staff who strike if they get less than 3% payrise will make it difficult...the layers upon layers of management structure. The interia is unreal.
 
It was great when it was implemented (wasn't it implemented by Tories?) but it has been kept back and stuck in seventies style labour Britain. It needs to change and broken up and become transparent.
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It probably was, but it's cost base was entirely different then. Doctors for example were not paid by the NHS, they funded themselves from private practice. Now the wage bill for Doctors is huge.
Nurses went to a nursing school, part of a hospital, and were available for ward work as on the job training. Something that happens much much less now, and are they much better nurses for going to university? No, a number of reports have shown they aren't.
Thats before we start on costs of treatments. Cancer was a death sentence mostly then, and the cost of morphine to relieve symptoms was cheap. Now its a lot more curable, but the costs of those drugs is immense.
The whole thing is to big, it's the third biggest employer, not in the UK, in the world, so it needs breaking down and streamlining. Of course it wont happen because as soon as someone suggests it, theres a hurl of abuse about privatization.
 
boyfalldown said:
It was Bevan who created it. Under Atlee's labour government
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I can't help but notice that a particular 'member' liked JP's inaccurate post ... pretty much says it all really
 
dejongj said:
Free at point of use still doesn't make it free. Heck if I go to chessington world of adventures, I pay my £40/person online. And I can go on any ride all day. Totally free at point of use. Ahem, no, I've paid for it.

Medication is an easy example, however there are other elements. I required a scan, the NHS would take six months waiting and in that time my home wouldn't be insured. So what can you do but to pay for it yourself, again and twice over.

It really isn't free and it annoys me when people treat it like it is.
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The chessington example is more than a bit silly and I'm sure you know that, as to the paying for the scan, what your actually doing is paying for a priority service, just like my dad did why he paid £16,000 for a heart bypass operation about 15 years back after being told he was a candidate for a life ending heart attack within 12 months, and the waiting list for the operation was 18 months....or 5 days time if he went private, in the exactly same operating theatre....

It's called paying for priority, is it right, hell no it's not however because of the abuse of the NHS, because of poor management, and poor working practices the NHS is a very innificent beast....but still IMO a brilliant service despite its short falls
 
ST4 said:
Given the cost of private healthcare most tax payers are better off with the economies of scale the NHS brings ie pooling resources with every other tax payer in the UK (rather than pooling resources with smaller different insurance providers). Just needs the fat trimming from it but the principle is a solid one.
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I don't believe it... we agree on something!!

ST4 said:
the layers upon layers of management structure. The interia is unreal.
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My son is training to be a paramedic. He has taken a part time job (to fit around college) with the A & E department of our local hospital. He was hoping to start before Christmas but due to the ridiculous amount of bureaucracy, he has only just been given approval to start this week.


Steve.
 
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Bernie174 said:
It probably was, but it's cost base was entirely different then. Doctors for example were not paid by the NHS, they funded themselves from private practice. Now the wage bill for Doctors is huge.
Nurses went to a nursing school, part of a hospital, and were available for ward work as on the job training. Something that happens much much less now, and are they much better nurses for going to university? No, a number of reports have shown they aren't.
Thats before we start on costs of treatments. Cancer was a death sentence mostly then, and the cost of morphine to relieve symptoms was cheap. Now its a lot more curable, but the costs of those drugs is immense.
The whole thing is to big, it's the third biggest employer, not in the UK, in the world, so it needs breaking down and streamlining. Of course it wont happen because as soon as someone suggests it, theres a hurl of abuse about privatization.
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More lies from the misinformed to the gullible

The NHS is not the third largest employer in the world.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17429786
 
Rapscallion said:
More lies from the misinformed to the gullible

The NHS is not the third largest employer in the world.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17429786
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not 3rd, only 5th... behind US and Chinese defence and some massive worldwide organisations...

still ahead of Indian Railways and defence, Chinese Petrol and Chinese State Grid

I think the point that it is bloated and overstaffed (not front line) holds true
 
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MWHCVT said:
The chessington example is more than a bit silly and I'm sure you know that, as to the paying for the scan, what your actually doing is paying for a priority service, just like my dad did why he paid £16,000 for a heart bypass operation about 15 years back after being told he was a candidate for a life ending heart attack within 12 months, and the waiting list for the operation was 18 months....or 5 days time if he went private, in the exactly same operating theatre....

It's called paying for priority, is it right, hell no it's not however because of the abuse of the NHS, because of poor management, and poor working practices the NHS is a very innificent beast....but still IMO a brilliant service despite its short falls
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I've never said the NHS doesn't provide good service once you can get it. My main point is that it isn't free. Everyone is paying huge sums for it.
 
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Uneducated_Rick said:
not 3rd, only 5th... behind US and Chinese defence and some massive worldwide organisations...

still ahead of Indian Railways and defence, Chinese Petrol and Chinese State Grid

I think the point that it is bloated and overstaffed (not front line) holds true
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I already mentioned that point earlier ;) naturally it changes from time to time. It shouldn't even feature in the top 100 for a small country like ours.
 
ST4 said:
And he's off....
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I hit send before I was ready. Silly me. What I meant to say was this:

According to you and your best mate Osbourne, this country is well on the way to recovery, the economy is growing and everything is fine and dandy. Seeing as this is the case, then why should we not help countries that have been hit with massive natural disasters? Surely you can not be that heartless. It has to be just bravado and a bluff? Surely? If not then I feel genuinely sorry for you. I know a lot of things scare you. I know you are petrified of people on the train that talk loud, I know you are mortified of dogs and we all know your biggest fear is people that are different than you but surely, SURELY, you cannot object to helping others?

That was what I meant to say. I do think you are a nasty boy though. Although you do like Greece so you can't be that bad.
 
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