Charge for Plastic Bags

Steve Smith said:
Exactly. People are just going to pay 5p for them then throw them away as usual.

However, if they were £5 each, it would be a different matter!

The only real answer is for shops to stop supplying bags and insist that you bring your own.


Steve.
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read the bbc article. bag usage reduced by 75% in wales who have this policy already.
 
I'm not sure why some people have got worked up about this. It's worked fine in Wales. My difficulty was shopping in England one day then Wales the next, and forgetting to take my own bags. I was more annoyed by the lack of consistency between shops a couple of miles from each other.
 
The Tesco store I use in Inverness almost always has old cardboard boxes at the end of the tills.
They are the sturdy green ones used for fruit and veg; hold a fair bit and stack well. It is a right pain on the odd occasion there are no boxes.

Dave
 
panther_87k said:
As for it being a tax, i dont see it that way because the charge goes to charity not the government, yes there will be a few unscrupulous places keeping the money for themselves but the large majority will be donating it. Its not all "green" charities either. I think its morrisons who are donating it to a childrens charity, and as they advertise which charity they donate it too im sure said charity would kick up a stink if they werent recieving it.
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This is what winds me up the most... It should be up to US to decide if and how much to give to charity, not others. It disgusts me that the government are increasing aid to countries that dont need it while cutting other things.
 
It's a bit annoying here in Wales as being a bloke I don't have a bag to constantly carry another bag around in. My idea is for free bags for men but charge women if they haven't got another bag in their handbag. Seems fair to me!

It is funny watching people buy shopping then do everything to avoid buying a bag, putting shopping in pockets or going out of the shop with their hands completely full. Must be a security guards nightmare and a shoplifters dream.

What does bug me is that the 5p charge is for all bags including paper ones, surely they're not bad for the environment?
 
big soft moose said:
Does anyone else remember the days when supermarkets used to leave all their empty packing boxes at the ends of the tils for customers to reuse ?

propper green philosphy in action - not to mention that once they'd been taken home they were often repurposed for storage, or for packing, or for kids to play with... then some tit cut himself on a staple and sued and the 'elf and safety brigade decided that it wasnt a safe way to dispose of cardboard boxes and they all had to be recycled for pulp instead :thumbsdown:
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Not to mention you put them in the boot and the contents doesnt tip over like carrier bags do...
 
WelshNoob said:
It's a bit annoying here in Wales as being a bloke I don't have a bag to constantly carry another bag around in. My idea is for free bags for men but charge women if they haven't got another bag in their handbag. Seems fair to me!
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Best comment of the day!!
 
Aldi dont have bags - I get caught out all the time, when I go in for my sand paper drills air compressors and jet washes - O and jelly beans.

People make a drama out of anything - BBC news 24 has had lots to say - IF they really cared they would make em a £1.00 each and give it direct to the local food bank charities
 
srichards said:
The irony is that the normal carrier bag re-used a couple of times is actually more environmentally friendly than the bags for life as they have to be re-used so many more times over and don't always last long enough.

Most people re-use normal carrier bags once or twice then use them as a bin liner.
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Yep, we reuse as bin liners. So I guess we will get some longer lasting bags for shopping, and buy other bags for bin liners.
Net environmental effect nil/slightly worse as now have to factor in the bags we will use for shopping.
A bigger issue for me is the amount of packaging, particularly plastics, used by supermarkets that is not recycleable.
 
srichards said:
Was on the goggle box. Forget what programme. Horizon, dispatches type or that Big Bang science prog on bbc1. It definitely said bags for life had to be used a significant number of times and a normal carrier only needed a couple of uses. Possibly a programme about rubbish/recycling.

Found bbc article. Think same info was on TV prog not long after:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17027990
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Will look jnyo it again.

On a trip tl Goa a couple of years back there were platic carrirr bags all over the place. In the trees, all over the beaches, slong with platj drinks bottles. The flimsy bags need to be condolidated to make financial sense to recyclr.

In the case of cizzy drinks bottle the economics of recycling sre haxy. If you take a 32 tonne bulk carrirr lorry and fill it to the brim wiyh crushanle watrr bottles, the fiscal value in the load is mucb less than the a in cost of transport. Worse in the case of PET Coke bottles where the caps hsd to be removed in the past as they were not able to be remanufactured.

Overall we sre not getting into the real answer to waste. Google the waste Hierarchy and you will see that recycling sits just above enrrgy recovery ans is not the optimum.

The original concept on "bags for life" was not that yhey would last gorever but that you would buy one and ehen it broke (as they all will) you yook it back and it was swapped for a new one and the broken one woul be remanufactured.

Big business has hijacked the green and SD agendas and used it as a bottom line tool and a "holier than thou" markrting tool. The 'tools' in the assembies and parliament are clueless.

Steve
 
Have you been drinking Steve ?
 
Evidently it's not classed as a tax as the money taken is supposed to be going to charity:|
 
big soft moose said:
Have you been drinking Steve ?
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What makes you think that?

Wish I had been. Been laid up with flu since Thursday.

I have worked in the environmental field for nearly 20 years afte 10 years as a management consultant. My doctorate is in Global Sustainabilty Management.

The last 7 years when "green issues" became sexy and worldwide businesses came under pressure to do the right thing, has led to.major issues being trivialised and the trivial becoming policy.

Short termism in resource management bolstred by 5 year cycles in government means that things like plastic bags are high on the agenda whilst soil erosion, food marketing and shortage along with extreme population growth sits in the margins.

Cynical? Moi? Well yes I am because I have seen very real issues being delivered (Like the Montreal Convention which has stopped the production and use of persistent organic chemicals, which can poison the land, damage habitat and cause genetic defects just as if a nuclear weapon had been loosed over the land), yet still the money trail grows and the people starve.

Cynical? Moi? Well yes I am. Having worked inside central government on real programmes (UK and abroad) for real change only to see the programmes pulled and forgotten. Happening everywhere globally. I am jaded by all the B-lox spouted. We are lucky - everyone ailve on this foruum will not live through potentially apocolyptical events but your future generations will. Oh I don't mean greenhouse issues, climate change etc. Simple resource availability for the logarithmic population growth and drift happening now will bring huge demand dynamics. Plastic bags - merely one sympton but in reality a flea on the arse of an elephant.

Steve
 
big soft moose said:
erm :lol:
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Bloody eyes are tired and the smartphone scree dimming down.

But I hope that whilst I agree plastic bags are a problem - there is a bigger picture which I know you are more than aware of!

Might moan about Muntjack Deer next - sodding nuisances....

At least I am smiling :-)

Steve
 
Hugh Jarse said:
Madness but the whole waste issue including the over packaging scene needs addressing. Bags are a tip of a much bigger iceberg
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What surely your not questioning the great British inalienable right to throw away as much rubbish as they desire and to have it collected weekly :)

Steve
 
big soft moose said:
... then some tit cut himself on a staple and sued and the 'elf and safety brigade decided that it wasnt a safe way to dispose of cardboard boxes and they all had to be recycled for pulp instead :thumbsdown:
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The Sainsburys I shop at has a bay at the end of the tills full of cardboard boxes for customer use, cant say I have seen any health & safety warnings :thumbs:

Steve
 
steve_v said:
What surely your not questioning the great British inalienable right to throw away as much rubbish as they desire and to have it collected weekly :)

Steve
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Who me?

Nah Gaia will provide all we need and more. We live in a land of milk and honey. The fields are full, the trees loaded and game is there for the taking.....

Bliss (I will wake from the dream soon enough. Then have poached Jeremy Clarkson for breakfast)

Steve
 
If the 5 p goes to charity I might buy a few more than I need to. When the charity box is within reach of the self service kiosk I usually get rid of all my shrapnel. Charging for carrier bags doesn't discourage me
 
We've had to pay for plastic bags for years in Ireland. And it's more than 5p, think it's 22c at present in most stores. And trust me, it's only when you think to yourself that you won't bother with plastic bags, you'll realise how often you need them.
 
As above, I reuse carrier bags for rubbish or carrying stuff. 5p won't make any difference. It is not enough of an incentive. It would be just easier to ban plastic carrier bags and it would have more of an impact.

big soft moose said:
Does anyone else remember the days when supermarkets used to leave all their empty packing boxes at the ends of the tils for customers to reuse ?
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when we were kids, we did our shopping at a local no-name supermarket and we would always use a big box to store the shopping in before carrying to the car. That box might then be use for taking stuff down to the waste recycling place and would be chucked into the paper/cardboard container.

I've also been to clothes stores where they give you a brown paper bag, except the paper is thick and strong. Looks strong enough to store say a couple of 2 litre bottles of fizzy drink without tearing. Would be happy to pay 5p to use something like this instead as the paper can be recycled.

What needs to happen IMO should be something along the lines of:
- carrier bag = 50p charge
- paper bag/recyclable/biodegradable bag = free
- bags for life = discount on shopping
 
omens said:
As above, I reuse carrier bags for rubbish or carrying stuff. 5p won't make any difference. It is not enough of an incentive. It would be just easier to ban plastic carrier bags and it would have more of an impact.
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Of course that's the common sense approach which is why the government don't do it. Lets just tax the public on the pretence of being green. If bags are so bad environmentally ban them
 
If supermarkets were to go back to providing decent carrier bags like they did a couple of years ago and not ones that struggle to carry a packet of crisps without ripping open I might be persuaded to buy them for 5p. Can't see that happening so I must try harder to remember the stash of bags in the cupboard under the sink!
 
Given that a bag for life is only 10p and holds nearly twice as much, 5p for a crap carrier doesnt make a lot of sense (to buy i mean - it makes perfect sense as a charge to deter buyers)
 
antihero said:
If supermarkets were to go back to providing decent carrier bags like they did a couple of years ago and not ones that struggle to carry a packet of crisps without ripping open I might be persuaded to buy them for 5p. Can't see that happening so I must try harder to remember the stash of bags in the cupboard under the sink!
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That's the thing, if I get out to the car and it's ripped can I get my 5p back. Would sale of goods act and fit for purpose come into play.
 
yes, but how much expectation of purpose can there be to a 5p item - basically the expectation would be 'fit for carrying a reasonable load a short distance for a single use', so if you overload it , or reuse it then theres no refund due
 
Having a bigger charge i think would encourage everyone to remember their bags for life... i have canvas ones i try and keep in the car but i am as guilty as the rest for forgettting:bonk:
 
The reason carriers are now rubbish is because supermarkets were told to use less packaging so ironically you need to double bag anything heavy! The new modern bags are more environmentally friendly per bag than the older thicker ones. The new ones are usually fully recyclable or fully bio degradable or both.

If carrier bags are fully recyclable, re-usable and bio degradable why is there so much fuss about using them anyway?

Cardboard boxes for shopping are only any good for people with cars. You can't carry shopping on a bus in a box. Nor when it is raining. Paper bags are also useless in wet weather so they're no good at all either.
 
cambsno said:
Of course that's the common sense approach which is why the government don't do it. Lets just tax the public on the pretence of being green. If bags are so bad environmentally ban them
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Agree with you but most things are environmentally "bad" in life cycle analysis terms.

Ergo the empty tin of beens in a platic carrier bag dumped in a wheely bin is never going to reappear as part of a new tin of beans or even part of a wing of a new car etc. At worst it will go to landfill (an option more and more less likely), at best it could be picked and separated thence consolidated fo reuse. (contamination can make that less likely) but somewhere in the middle it goes with "general waste" into "energy recovery" through incineration.

Thus the simplest option is cease use. The charge option to raise money for charity is IMHO a specious and a very short term benefit. A charge of 5p will not yield that 5p in its entirety to any charity by the time the sticky fingers have had their share of the action. What spread of charities get the money - local, regional or national? As the reduction in the use of bags goes down not only does the take reduce (less money for charity as well) , then the actual price of the bags to the supermarket rises so is offset in price rises for the goods on sale. Further along the chain the carrier bag companies maybe go bust - bit more unemployment paid for ny taxes with less corporation tax take and VAT..... Not exactly such a virtuous cycle but a mini highlight for crusading politicians? Just how much of that 5p will provide real 'value' to charities? How much will they pay for the bidding process to win a share of the money raised?

It seems so very simple in first reading but take away the smoke and mirrors it is just another tax and once installed what comes next? Where, in reality, is the environmental benefit? The bags are made from the by products of the oil industry and once that income stream dries up the companies will find a new one and the cycle starts again.

Still we can feel virtuous - can we not?

Steve

(still in bed on day 4 of flu with too much time on his hands...)
 
Lets face it, we're just paying the price for being a society of lazy b******s wanting to shop for everything under the same roof. High streets have died, local businesses gone, city centres a mass of pubs, clubs and empty shops. Characterless urban sprawls. Does anybody care? Not many I fear.
 
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The so-called bags for life are 1.50 here. Some even more.
 
I work in a supermarket.
You'd be surprised how many customers we have at lunch time buying a sandwich ( which they will probably eat straight away) and ask for a bag. We also have customers that grab a handful of bags purely to use as free bin bags at home, when challenged the assistant just gets a load of verbal abuse. Maybe they would think twice if they had to pay for the bag.

We have tried to encourage customers to use our re-usable bags on several occasions by giving them away free over a weekend. Unfortunately it doesn't work as the following week they have forgotten to bring the bags with them so end up using the free bags. We also have a recycle bin for used carrier bags but again I don't think many people use it. I think charging for bags is the only way to get people to bring their own.

I use 4 very large, strong re-usable bags for my shopping. I think I paid 50p each for them and have had them for at least 12 months. I also have several smaller, equally strong bags that I use if I only want a few items.
 
for all who are saying it wont work, it'll have to be 50p+ to make a difference etc etc. It has and does work, in wales carrier bag consumption has reduced by 75% in 2 years!

Banning them all together would have some shouting from the rooftops (you know the sort i mean) whereas a small charge, which could be increased over time until there is an almost 100% reduction in use (wouldnt take much for that to happen here in wales) then ban them once they are almost unused would make much more sense. Slowly slowly catchy monkey as they say.
 
Hilarious that some are calling it a tax!!!!!

It's shops charging you for items. About time too. Keep carrier bags, buy some bags for life and reuse them. Keep some in your car at all times. It's really not difficult!

The same people who moan and whinge about the 'nanny state' are now moaning and bitching about having to take some responsibility for themselves. It's priceless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I really don't see the problem. I live in England but rarely if ever use supermarket carrier bags - they seem pointless when shopping bags and bags for life are cheap and easily available. I take a hessian shopping bag and one or two bags for life whenever I shop; just pop them in the car on my way out. Much easier to carry and more convenient than flimsy carrier bags.

And I don't use a handbag!
 
BRASH said:
Lets face it, we're just paying the price for being a society of lazy b******s wanting to shop for everything under the same roof. High streets have died, local businesses gone, city centres a mass of pubs, clubs and empty shops. Characterless urban sprawls. Does anybody care? Not many I fear.
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Is it really laziness or that life has sped up and where once we had a family structure of man as breadwiner woman as homemaker defined a slower less manic time?

The time to wander down the high street has gone whilst the range of product is through the roof.

Megastores are like grand prix race tracks with a mix of people with time on their hands and those trying to cram a shop in amongst other activities (gym, helping kids to their cluns etc).

Some days you can almost wear other people's stress.

I for one intend, in semi early retirement, to develop positive laziness. It has already started. I will plan to take my camera out more often but will not get worked up if on the day I do not bother. I am slowin down in a purposeful way.

I am promoting laziness as a virtue.... I see it as a way to live longer. As for plastic bags... as my post above, the government put their sticky fingers in my pocket when I first went to work and once that monkey was put on my back it has remained there for over 40 years. Hardly notice the monkey is there it has been there so long. But with the bag tax it is nudging me in an awkward place so I look over my shoulder, the monkey grins back at me and once again the stink of his breath is there but the face just keeps changing.

S
 
BRASH said:
Lets face it, we're just paying the price for being a society of lazy b******s wanting to shop for everything under the same roof. High streets have died, local businesses gone, city centres a mass of pubs, clubs and empty shops. Characterless urban sprawls. Does anybody care? Not many I fear.
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That's helped by idiotic councils having anti car agendas and extortionate car parking prices
 
norters said:
Hilarious that some are calling it a tax!!!!!

It's shops charging you for items. About time too. Keep carrier bags, buy some bags for life and reuse them. Keep some in your car at all times. It's really not difficult!

The same people who moan and whinge about the 'nanny state' are now moaning and bitching about having to take some responsibility for themselves. It's priceless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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That's because it's a cost setup by government = tax.
 
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