Cars and Smog !

[Mr Bump]

So it used to be places like Bejing banning cars because of smog problems but now Paris

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32016730

I think we are not to many years away from major problems in our big cities.
I hear there are discussions to ban diesels from some city centres soon as well in some Euro countries.

I must admit something needs to be done.

 

[onomatopoeia]

Yet (to use a comparable capital city) I remember London seeming much more "smoggy" as a child in the 1970s than it is today. Not that I can see how it is possible to get more cars on the roads in central London. While I almost always go in by tube (why would you not?) on the rare occasions I've driven inside the area encircled by the north and south circular roads it has always been massively busy. Which is why I always use the tube if I can.

I have one car with an odd numbered plate and one with an even so I would be unaffected by such a measure in any case .

 

[srichards]

I remember visiting London when I was at school. First time the air was thick with dust and dirt. Second time, 1991 ish, it was a bit better. Still not like fresh air in the north though

I thought a lot of the pollution issues can be fixed with just having trees or bushes close to the road. Seems much more sensible to plant greenery.

Think my regs are all odd so it's the perfect excuse to buy another car

 

[viv1969]

I seem to recall my father telling me of deadly London smogs in the mid 20th century (when every home used coal for heat), when thousands were killed by it.

 

[nilagin]

So it used to be places like Bejing banning cars because of smog problems but now Paris

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32016730

I think we are not to many years away from major problems in our big cities.
I hear there are discussions to ban diesels from some city centres soon as well in some Euro countries.

I must admit something needs to be done.

As far as diesels are concerned, all they need to do is as Boris suggested and have another scrapage scheme and entice people into cleaner diesels. The recent scare mongering over diesels is rubbish. It would take 42 million Euro 6 diesel engine vehicles to produce as much particulates as a fossil burning power station per day. I think we're some way short of there being 42 million diesel powered vehicles on the roads anyway.

 

[simonblue]

I seem to recall my father telling me of deadly London smogs in the mid 20th century (when every home used coal for heat), when thousands were killed by it.

I remember coal fire smog,god it could get bad

 

[Steve Smith]

While I almost always go in by tube (why would you not?)

Because I would rather walk.


Steve.

 

[onomatopoeia]

Because I would rather walk.


Steve.

It's a long way from Ickenham to South Kensington on foot, to use the last underground journey I made as an example.

 

[Steve Smith]

It's a long way from Ickenham to South Kensington on foot, to use the last underground journey I made as an example.

Yes, but a lot of inner city journeys which many people use the tube for can actually be quicker by foot. Personally, I would rather walk four miles than use the underground.


Steve.

 

[Mr Bump]

As far as diesels are concerned, all they need to do is as Boris suggested and have another scrapage scheme and entice people into cleaner diesels. The recent scare mongering over diesels is rubbish. It would take 42 million Euro 6 diesel engine vehicles to produce as much particulates as a fossil burning power station per day. I think we're some way short of there being 42 million diesel powered vehicles on the roads anyway.

True and I certainly agree with the need to push the older dirtier engines off the road but as to scare mongering that's not the case. Air pollution levels in cities are predominantly caused by cars be it diesel or petrol and given certain euro cities are seeing serious issues I see drastic measures in the future.

 

[Mr Bump]

Because I would rather walk.


Steve.

I would idealy Steve as well but walk in a heavily polluted city I would pass on.

 

[Steve Smith]

Given the choice between walking in London and travelling on the underground, I would walk. Given the third choice of doing neither, I would take that!


Steve.

 

[Phil V]

We had this last week, have to say it reminded me of my youth, we have quickly forgotten how much dirtier the air was when coal was our primary source of heat and electricity.

 

[KEEFYP]

True and I certainly agree with the need to push the older dirtier engines off the road but as to scare mongering that's not the case. Air pollution levels in cities are predominantly caused by cars be it diesel or petrol and given certain euro cities are seeing serious issues I see drastic measures in the future.

Run them on veg oil.

 

[Mr Bump]

Run them on veg oil.

oddly enough I was thinking this the other day, I remember about 5 years ago everyone buying veg oil in bulk and mixing it up, but then veg oil became expensive.

It was only later when I read it was because so much oil was going to bio diesel there was a shortage so the price was higher. Also burning what in fairness is a food/cooking source for many people is a bad thing as this pushes them into poverty.

 

[Mr Bump]

Also I believe Westminster are to introduce fines for cars idling there engines when stopped for unreasonable amounts of time.

 

[KEEFYP]

oddly enough I was thinking this the other day, I remember about 5 years ago everyone buying veg oil in bulk and mixing it up, but then veg oil became expensive.

It was only later when I read it was because so much oil was going to bio diesel there was a shortage so the price was higher. Also burning what in fairness is a food/cooking source for many people is a bad thing as this pushes them into poverty.

Still cheaper per litre than diesel. Moreso if you buy in bulk from Costco etc

Also I believe Westminster are to introduce fines for cars idling there engines when stopped for unreasonable amounts of time.

Modern cars have stop/start systems on them. How do they determine the time period at stand? However the start/stop system weighs as much as an extra passenger, so defeats the objective if you are effectively carrying an extra passenger for no reason.

Euro6 diesel involves injection of urea into the exhaust system, so again extra weight unnecessarily. My euro6 car has stop/start at 106Kg, plus 100 litres of urea in an extra tank at about an extra 130Kg when full, plus pumps and associated hardware adding mass to the vehicle. The smaller the car the worse the effect. Especially having to accelerate regularly in congestion.

Had politicians taken the correct technical decisions 30 years ago we would have conserved massive amounts of fuel in place of burning it through catalytic convertors requiring more fuel for the same output i.e. inefficiency. Lean burn technology, that is now being foisted was available those decades ago. Dumb rules by dumb people.

 

[Mr Bump]

I am not really sure that engine technology has the ability to combat this issue really its still a fire just a much cleaner one but a fire none the less. I think it will help but ultimately it is destined to simply drive the cost of a car up and as older cars are driven off our roads the cost of running a car will go up drastically. I think the real answers for all these big cities is better links like electric trams and subways to move people around cleaner and quieter and generate electricity in areas where the waste can be much better managed like carbon capture etc.

I personally feel this issue is going to be a real issue in the next 10 years or so.

I

 

[onomatopoeia]

Personally, I would rather walk four miles than use the underground.

Whereas I find the underground excellent and would be prepared to use public transport regularly if Bristol had one with similar coverage. As it is we have buses which regard the timetable as an aspiration rather than anything that intersects with reality, don't run with sufficient regularity to where I live and are no good for getting home if you go to a play / film / gig in the centre in the evening as the last one is too early, so summarise everything I dislike about public transport.

 

[Steve Smith]

Whereas I find the underground excellent and would be prepared to use public transport regularly if Bristol had one with similar coverage. As it is we have buses which regard the timetable as an aspiration rather than anything that intersects with reality, don't run with sufficient regularity to where I live and are no good for getting home if you go to a play / film / gig in the centre in the evening as the last one is too early, so summarise everything I dislike about public transport.

There seems to be a lot of variation depending on area. The bus service here (Isle of Wight) is excellent with new, air conditioned buses - some with free wi-fi.

I can go out to a gig or other event and know that I can get home as the main routes run well past midnight most days and hourly through the night on Friday and Saturday.

Being a rural area (mainly) the fares are higher than they would be in a city - unless you buy a weekly, monthly or three monthly ticket. It costs me about the same to drive to work as it does to use the bus and often, I couldn't be bothered to drive. I will let someone else do it so I can have a snooze!

We also have seventy year old ex London Underground trains working our short section of railway here.


Steve.

 

[Nod]

IIRC, Paris and Athens have both tried the odd/even cars on particular days thing and in both cases, the only real result was an increase in car sales as people simply bought another with a different number on the end so they could still drive into the cities. Not sure how it could work over here since the current reg system is year dependent so an odd/even system would remove the newest cars (usually the less polluting ones) every other day.

 

[Phil V]

...
Had politicians taken the correct technical decisions 30 years ago we would have conserved massive amounts of fuel in place of burning it through catalytic convertors requiring more fuel for the same output i.e. inefficiency. Lean burn technology, that is now being foisted was available those decades ago. Dumb rules by dumb people.

I'm glad someone else remembers this.
Top Gear and Tomorrows World were all over stories about the Japanese creating hugely efficient engines, but someone convinced Governments to go the Catalytic Converter route (it couldn't possibly have been lobbying from the Oil industry - that's a ridiculous assumption).

 

[Mr Bump]

@Nod I think the answer is in years to come cities that have invested poorly in public low carbon transport will suffer, somewhere down the line the car will be dropped from polluted city centers to be replaced with electric buses/vehicles.

 

[KEEFYP]

@Nod I think the answer is in years to come cities that have invested poorly in public low carbon transport will suffer, somewhere down the line the car will be dropped from polluted city centers to be replaced with electric buses/vehicles.

Those cities that don't declare themselves nuclear free!! Although a considerable amount of our 'peak' supply comes from nuclear generation in France.

The smart money is on diesel/hybrid over the next 35-50 years.

Electric vehicles require electrical generation of some kind to charge overnight / off service. We need the dummies in parliament to make timely decisions outwith the political cycle to deliver energy security. Not looking good at present with increase in electrical power usage by electrifying more railway, charging points in cities, on shoring of manufacturing. The full picture is beyond the capability of politicians tbh.

Energy usage has to be addressed. Why are we using individual gas fired central heating systems in each dwelling in place of local heat distribution systems where geothermal and by product heat is not circulated?

 

[onomatopoeia]

We need the dummies in parliament to make timely decisions outwith the political cycle to deliver energy security.

I've been saying this for about the last 20 years...

Energy usage has to be addressed. Why are we using individual gas fired central heating systems in each dwelling in place of local heat distribution systems where geothermal and by product heat is not circulated?

Infrastructure costs in providing it?

 

[KEEFYP]

I've been saying this for about the last 20 years...



Infrastructure costs in providing it?

Less than individual dwelling costs of new build currently. Look at the whole life of it not the spreadsheet individual cells as accountants do. Ground source heat pumps are less than gas boilers for example. Any new anaerobic plants can be part of the heat generation. Wholesale demolition and rebuild of metropolitan housing stock, Birmingham, Manchester and Glasgow, the largest landlords of housing in the country are already looking into it. . We need a paradigm shift in thinking. Norway is currently undertaking just this measures.

 

[nilagin]

Still cheaper per litre than diesel. Moreso if you buy in bulk from Costco etc



Modern cars have stop/start systems on them. How do they determine the time period at stand? However the start/stop system weighs as much as an extra passenger, so defeats the objective if you are effectively carrying an extra passenger for no reason.

Euro6 diesel involves injection of urea into the exhaust system, so again extra weight unnecessarily. My euro6 car has stop/start at 106Kg, plus 100 litres of urea in an extra tank at about an extra 130Kg when full, plus pumps and associated hardware adding mass to the vehicle. The smaller the car the worse the effect. Especially having to accelerate regularly in congestion.

Had politicians taken the correct technical decisions 30 years ago we would have conserved massive amounts of fuel in place of burning it through catalytic convertors requiring more fuel for the same output i.e. inefficiency. Lean burn technology, that is now being foisted was available those decades ago. Dumb rules by dumb people.

What car do you drive? That's seems an unrealistic and unnecessary amount of extra added weight. My 13 plate Focus (Euro 5 and non stop start) is 72kg lighter than the latest version. (Euro 6 with stop start).
Catalytic converters only became a compulsory oem fitment 22 years ago on petrols and 18yrs ago on diesels. Previous to that it was only the likes of Volvo and Saab that used catalytic converters.

 

[nilagin]

Energy usage has to be addressed. Why are we using individual gas fired central heating systems in each dwelling in place of local heat distribution systems where geothermal and by product heat is not circulated?

What happens if that shared system goes down? Everyone gets cold. At least if you have your own heating and it goes down, your neighbours won't be getting cold as a result.

 

[nilagin]

IIRC, Paris and Athens have both tried the odd/even cars on particular days thing and in both cases, the only real result was an increase in car sales as people simply bought another with a different number on the end so they could still drive into the cities. Not sure how it could work over here since the current reg system is year dependent so an odd/even system would remove the newest cars (usually the less polluting ones) every other day.

On the presumption there is an equal number of even and odd registrations, it's about removing half the number of cars from the road each day to reduce pollution levels, the amount of pollution an individual car produces because of age is inconsequential.

 

[the black fox]

i was only a child back in the early 50's but i can well remember going up west with mum and dad and having to wear a smog mask ,it was that bad you could actually see the black bits floating in the air .this is how the coppers on duty coped .you really wouldn't want to see the return of this

 

[nilagin]

i was only a child back in the early 50's but i can well remember going up west with mum and dad and having to wear a smog mask ,it was that bad you could actually see the black bits floating in the air .this is how the coppers on duty coped .you really wouldn't want to see the return of this View attachment 33428

I'm willing to bet there were far far fewer vehicles on the road then than there is now. As others have mentioned coal fires will have been the main cause of that smog, not traffic.

 

[KEEFYP]

What car do you drive? That's seems an unrealistic and unnecessary amount of extra added weight. My 13 plate Focus (Euro 5 and non stop start) is 72kg lighter than the latest version. (Euro 6 with stop start).
Catalytic converters only became a compulsory oem fitment 22 years ago on petrols and 18yrs ago on diesels. Previous to that it was only the likes of Volvo and Saab that used catalytic converters.

I drive a W221 Mercedes S350L. Your ford figures bare out my Merc as mine is a 3.0lt V6 engine that has a heavier flywheel and associated stop/start gubbins. The urea tank is that size to be able to last the service intervals. As I said, without the stop start and urea gubbins I could have a lighter car burning less fuel to accelerate the mass in traffic. What is the Focus urea tank fitted? Catalytic convertors were only part of the emissions controls and had been in use in Japan and Australia (Holden [GM] and FORD) since the early 80's. The US had emission controls around the same time together with the switch to unleaded. The world is just not the UK Do diesels have catalytic convertors? DPF systems add mass and if not cleaned out by running sufficiently hot for long enough, generally 20 miles at 50mph constant are useless in reducing emissions. The emissions standards are based on perfect world situations, the measuring against them is in test lab settings, not actual usage. Dumb people making dumb rules.

What happens if that shared system goes down? Everyone gets cold. At least if you have your own heating and it goes down, your neighbours won't be getting cold as a result.

You build in 2 or 3 level fail safe. But remember by using new build the need for heating due to insulation and air tightness is negligible, thats the idea of the whole system approach, together with constant room temperature year round. As I said above we need a paradigm shift in thought processes. I was cynical at first, but having worked on the Engineering side of some of these things I understand it and see the benefits. Clever stuff going on around us. Of course developers will not make exorbitant profits, but the bigger picture is the winner.

 

[onomatopoeia]

Less than individual dwelling costs of new build currently. Look at the whole life of it not the spreadsheet individual cells as accountants do. Ground source heat pumps are less than gas boilers for example. Any new anaerobic plants can be part of the heat generation. Wholesale demolition and rebuild of metropolitan housing stock, Birmingham, Manchester and Glasgow, the largest landlords of housing in the country are already looking into it. . We need a paradigm shift in thinking. Norway is currently undertaking just this measures.

You're talking about new build while ignoring the mass of existing housing stock. I live in a bungalow built in 1951. It had double glazing and a modern condensing (combi) boiler when I moved in, I've since added loft insulation (loads, it's a bungalow) and cavity wall insulation (loads, it's L shaped so more wall for the internal area) as well as replacing front and back doors with massively more thermally efficient ones. And that's as far as I can go without massive work. If I could have a GSHP system installed and working for the cost of a replacement boiler (£2500 or so) and the electric from running the pump cost less than the gas for the boiler, I'd do it. Neither of those conditions can be met though. Even the RHI payments don't make it viable, and they run out after 7 years.


As for cars, given that on average 50% of the energy use / carbons attributed to an individual vehicle are from its construction and destruction, encouraging continual replacement each time the next new big thing (e.g. Euro n+1) is announced rather than prolonging life actually appears a massively environmentally unfriendly thing to do. Had this conversation with my Dad at the weekend, who has a new small car with a 900cc petrol turbo engine (3 cylinder, I think). He commented to me that it uses more petrol than his 848cc Mini did 50 or so years ago (which would return 55mpg on a run) and asked where the progress was. I told him you can't beat an HS2 carburettor from Skinner's Union (except with a pair of HS4s).

 

[kennethwfd]

I'm willing to bet there were far far fewer vehicles on the road then than there is now. As others have mentioned coal fires will have been the main cause of that smog, not traffic.

Until the 60's many families didn't have a car and the railways were largely run by steam locomotives

I remember back in the 80's the problem was leaded four star petrol. buy a nice new car running on unleaded petrol with catatonic (sorry catalytic) converter and the world's pollution problems would be solved

 

[nilagin]

IWhat is the Focus urea tank fitted? Catalytic convertors were only part of the emissions controls and had been in use in Japan and Australia (Holden [GM] and FORD) since the early 80's. The US had emission controls around the same time together with the switch to unleaded. The world is just not the UK Do diesels have catalytic convertors? DPF systems add mass and if not cleaned out by running sufficiently hot for long enough, generally 20 miles at 50mph constant are useless in reducing emissions. The emissions standards are based on perfect world situations, the measuring against them is in test lab settings, not actual usage. Dumb people making dumb rules.

As far as I know the Focus doesn't have a urea tank. DPF systems vary from manufacturer to manufacturer or even cars within a manufacturers range. Yes diesels do have catalytic converters, they are different to those on petrol cars however. For a car's emissions to be measured in comparable and fairly sustainable conditions they have to be carried out in laboratory conditions. But the cars have already been tested in real world conditions as well and the results worked out to a formula to give the end figures, same as they do with fuel consumption figures.

 

[CaveDweller]

I like smog. I also like a good Cummins diesel

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUQ2rtm7axQ

 

[nilagin]

Until the 60's many families didn't have a car and the railways were largely run by steam locomotives

I remember back in the 80's the problem was leaded four star petrol. buy a nice new car running on unleaded petrol with catatonic (sorry catalytic) converter and the world's pollution problems would be solved

As I said most new cars available in the UK during 80's didn't have catalytic converters. They weren't introduced until 93 for all petrol new cars. As far as unleaded was concerned, that was solved by having valve seats hardened, timing altered or using lead replacement fuel or additives.
Petrol cars will soon have to have GPF's.
There are loads of different measures on modern engines to reduce emissions further, low friction pumps, drive belts in oil, smaller capacity with turbo, twin scroll turbos, smart charge alternators, variable valve timing, egr's, cylinder deactivation etc.

 

[KEEFYP]

You're talking about new build while ignoring the mass of existing housing stock. I live in a bungalow built in 1951. It had double glazing and a modern condensing (combi) boiler when I moved in, I've since added loft insulation (loads, it's a bungalow) and cavity wall insulation (loads, it's L shaped so more wall for the internal area) as well as replacing front and back doors with massively more thermally efficient ones. And that's as far as I can go without massive work. If I could have a GSHP system installed and working for the cost of a replacement boiler (£2500 or so) and the electric from running the pump cost less than the gas for the boiler, I'd do it. Neither of those conditions can be met though. Even the RHI payments don't make it viable, and they run out after 7 years.


As for cars, given that on average 50% of the energy use / carbons attributed to an individual vehicle are from its construction and destruction, encouraging continual replacement each time the next new big thing (e.g. Euro n+1) is announced rather than prolonging life actually appears a massively environmentally unfriendly thing to do. Had this conversation with my Dad at the weekend, who has a new small car with a 900cc petrol turbo engine (3 cylinder, I think). He commented to me that it uses more petrol than his 848cc Mini did 50 or so years ago (which would return 55mpg on a run) and asked where the progress was. I told him you can't beat an HS2 carburettor from Skinner's Union (except with a pair of HS4s).

I did state:

Wholesale demolition and rebuild of metropolitan housing stock, Birmingham, Manchester and Glasgow, the largest landlords of housing in the country are already looking into it.

Norway is currently undertaking just this measures.

In the case of your bungalow and probably most housing between 1920 and 1990 will not meet the insulation standards for GSHP as you would need to insulate into the ground underneath the building, so better demolish and start again, Have you considered how much you have spent doing all the things you have done in comparison to having demolished and built from scratch? Solar PV is a good way forward provided you get in quick and put a 4Kw system in, no less. Combine it with a hot water storage tank and immersion heater. A local area wind turbine will cost £30k and can supply 40 houses.

I also stated we need a paradigm shift in thinking.

I know we are discussing car as transport, but the biggest transport polluters are aircraft. Then again our penchant for consumerism doesn't bode well with wanting new things that are not actually required.

 

[KEEFYP]

As far as I know the Focus doesn't have a urea tank. DPF systems vary from manufacturer to manufacturer or even cars within a manufacturers range. Yes diesels do have catalytic converters, they are different to those on petrol cars however. For a car's emissions to be measured in comparable and fairly sustainable conditions they have to be carried out in laboratory conditions. But the cars have already been tested in real world conditions as well and the results worked out to a formula to give the end figures, same as they do with fuel consumption figures.

Like I said, not measuring in real world conditions. There is only so much energy from a litre of fuel, the rest is waste however you formulate the calculation.

 

[dejongj]

To me it is very easy to get people to leave their cars. It is so simple and obvious that I don't get it doesn't exist.

Provide a better alternative.

Better to me isn't even full luxury with double glazing and massaging seats although it would be nice. No better is simple stuff as in provide a seat. Don't pack us in like sardines in a tin. If I can smell someone else breath or body odour it really isn't good enough. And provide the alternative to where people need to go. Coverage is just not good enough at the moment. I live just outside London yet it will still be two days in order to get to Heathrow by 9am start for work. It's madness.

Ps. I've lived many a decade with centrally provided heating and hot water. It never missed a beat.