Carbon or Alloy?

just taken delivery of my Carbon Redsnapper and i have to say it looks and feels fantastic. i will upload some pics shortly but i cant see me wanting to go back now
 
it has a hook on the bottom to hang something with weight so i dont think i will ever have the priveledge :lol:
 
Triggaaar said:
I'm just saying that they're not more stable than carbon. And the carbon pods that wobble in the wind are the really light weight explorer models.
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I don't think anyone said the alloy ones are more stable than the C/F...but they are more heavy and therefore stand more firmly...well that is my interpretation of it at least...

With enough wind even an oilrig will wobble in the wind;)
 
Triggaaar said:
I'm just saying that they're not more stable than carbon.
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If you take two identical items of differing mass and apply an ever increasing force the item with the least mass will be the first to move:thumbs: Simple physics I'm afraid:rules:
 
Eric Mc said:
If you take two identical items of differing mass and apply an ever increasing force the item with the least mass will be the first to move:thumbs: Simple physics I'm afraid:rules:
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Don't be afraid Eric, it'll be ok.

Your physics maybe simple, mine's a little better. It'll take less force to make a ton of jelly move than 3/4 a ton of steel. You could just tap a ton of jelly and it'll wobble (move). Your comment suggests that material makes no difference to the stability of a tripod, and that weight is the only factor. You're wrong. Of course extra weight helps stbility, but it's not the only thing.
 
Triggaaar said:
Don't be afraid Eric, it'll be ok.

Your physics maybe simple, mine's a little better. It'll take less force to make a ton of jelly move than 3/4 a ton of steel. You could just tap a ton of jelly and it'll wobble (move). Your comment suggests that material makes no difference to the stability of a tripod, and that weight is the only factor. You're wrong. Of course extra weight helps stbility, but it's not the only thing.
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So lets throw things like high columns, leg angles and things. There is a lot more to this than just weight.;)
 
Triggaaar said:
It'll take less force to make a ton of jelly move than 3/4 a ton of steel.
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Very true.......but we are not talking about jelly and steel are we :nono: There are three ways you can go about replicating an alloy object in carbon.

1 Make the carbon item the same weight as the alloy one but with a large increase in strength.

2 Make the carbon item the same strength as the alloy one but with a large decrease in weight.

3 A compromise of the first two giving a carbon item a little stronger and a little lighter than the alloy version.

There is no doubt that carbon is a stronger material than alloy but don't confuse strength with stability :nono: Another fact worth pointing out is that carbon will transmit any vibration a lot more than alloy will! Hold a carbon tube in your hand and tap the end and you will feel every vibration....an alloy tube will feel dead by comparison.
 
You had me until the last sentence...

Eric Mc said:
Another fact worth pointing out is that carbon will transmit any vibration a lot more than alloy will! Hold a carbon tube in your hand and tap the end and you will feel every vibration....an alloy tube will feel dead by comparison.
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Have you not got that the wrong way around - I thought one of the big benefits of carbon fibre over alloy was its ability to handle vibration better. Certainly an alloy tube will ring (vibrate) when hit - carbon wouldn't, it's deader than a dead thing
 
Barlines said:
Have you not got that the wrong way around
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If laminated and cured corectly a carbon tube will ring like a bell. Trust me on this....it's what I do for a living;)
 
Eric Mc said:
If laminated and cured corectly a carbon tube will ring like a bell. Trust me on this....it's what I do for a living;)
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you mean 'incorrectly' in this instance?

A quick check on the Gitzo & Manfrotto sites would seem to confirm that Carbon fibre as THEY make it is indeed a better isolator than alloy or is that all a bigger marketing scam that the shampoo manufacturers 'rinse then repeat' instructions
 
Barlines said:
You had me until the last sentence...



Have you not got that the wrong way around - I thought one of the big benefits of carbon fibre over alloy was its ability to handle vibration better. Certainly an alloy tube will ring (vibrate) when hit - carbon wouldn't, it's deader than a dead thing
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Hmm, I also thought the same thing - that CF tripods resonate less than aluminium. Most reviews I read said that CF and wooden tripods have better vibration damping qualities than their metal counterparts. Gitzo even mention the vibration absorbing qualities of carbon fibre on their website.
 
Eric Mc said:
If you take two identical items of differing mass and apply an ever increasing force the item with the least mass will be the first to move:thumbs: Simple physics I'm afraid:rules:
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Very true.......but we are not talking about jelly and steel are we :nono:
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No, we're not talking about jelly and steel, but your simple physics :rules: stated that mass was the only factor in whether an object would move when under force, and I am simply pointing out that that is not correct.

There is no doubt that carbon is a stronger material than alloy but don't confuse strength with stability :nono:
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Thanks, I won't.

There is a reason why the best tripod manufacturers make carbon pods, and why professionals use them. Some of the lighter models aren't suitable for all jobs - here's another Thom Hogan quote re carbon Gitzos: "Some of the smaller tube sizes have a tendency to resonate wind and shutter vibrations, which makes them not good choices. In general, I recommend you avoid the 0 and 1 series if you're using any serious DSLR and going for solid stability."

Another fact worth pointing out is that carbon will transmit any vibration a lot more than alloy will!
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All alloy and carbon are not equal. With both products, manufacturers will try to reduce vibrations. Eg, from Gitzo's website re carbon:
"Gitzo 6X tube is made of a unique 6 crossed layers structure that maximises rigidity, vibration absorption performance and lightweight"
Gitzo explain that their Carbon pods are more stable than their Basalt pods, which are more stable than their aluminium pods. eg, "Basalt tube is 20% lighter than aluminum and offers intermediate performance between aluminum and Carbon 6X tubing"
 
Barlines said:
or is that all a bigger marketing scam that the shampoo manufacturers 'rinse then repeat' instructions
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Lets just say that they would hardly tell you it was worse now would they :lol:

Let me try and give you a real world example. Most fishing rods are now made of carbon....one reason being the superior bite detection that carbon offers, the smallest bite from a fish is transmited along the line to the tip of the rod....straight to the hand of the fisherman holding it;)
 
so can I just clarify you are saying it IS all a scam then and that these companies with their large R&D departments just don't understand the dynamics of carbon fibre?
 
Triggaaar said:
"Gitzo 6X tube is made of a unique 6 crossed layers structure that maximises rigidity, vibration absorption performance and lightweight"
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You really are a marketing mans dream customer :lol: There is nothing unique what so ever about a 6 crossed layers structure in carbon manufacture. The yacht mast making industry has been doing that sort of thing for at least the last 10 years....infact the technology is so old now that most have moved away from it in favor of more up to date processes ;)
 
Barlines said:
so can I just clarify you are saying it IS all a scam then and that these companies with their large R&D departments just don't understand the dynamics of carbon fibre?
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Lets just say that the R&D involved in producing a carbon tube for a tripod wouldn't even pay the tea bill for the R&D that goes into making a mast for a Volvo round the world race yacht or an Americas cup boat:lol: And I speak from a position of having made both ;)
 
I wouldn't insult you by trying to understand your job making masts but we are not on about yachts OR fishing rods here - we are on about tripods and you seem to be claiming to know more than the people that do actually design and make them.
 
Barlines said:
we are on about tripods and you seem to be claiming to know more than the people that do actually design and make them.
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Most carbon tripods are a direct copy of their alloy counter part...no real design work involved, just subsitute carbon tube for alloy;) I don't claim to know more about tripods than the people that make them....I do however probably know quite a lot more about the carbon they are making them of:thumbs:
 
Eric Mc said:
just subsitute carbon tube for alloy;)
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I'd agree to a point, I've seen a pod a friend got from ebay and it did indeed just swap out the alloy for some pretty generic and poor looking carbon - I'm really hoping its a bit more involved than that when you buy a decent tripod as I would hope they would need to determine the direction and number of layers of weave for strength and damping and a decent way of attaching a non alloy material securely to an alloy one - just like I would hope they do when they determine what mix of alloy to use etc for the alloy ones.

Go on - agree just once - it won't kill you :lol:

Night night :wave:
 
What a bunch of woossies :D

The first, and possibly the best, tripod I ever owned was an original Benbo. Now that was a beast to carry and to use. It would take a hurricane to blow that thing over but it was more manouverable that any other tripod I have seen.

Wooden tripods are meant to be the best for vibration damping.

Carbon fibre - isn't it super strong only in one direction. Stress it the wrong way and it shatters on you.
 
Really guys, i'd in along with eric's word when it comes to carbon stuff. In fact, i'd be more willing to take on adriany newey in a debate on carbon than eric.
I'm sure some new they better cf tripods are designed to reduce vibrations as much as possible but that doesn't mean they're the best. :)
 
I'm no expert in this field but I do know for a fact that my Gitzo GT3540LS is much more stable (and I mean against vibration and not falling over) than my old Manfrotto 055 alloy tripod. I will happily run my 500mm lens at 1/30 second on my Gitzo if the subject is still enough...
 
grumpybadger said:
I'm no expert in this field but I do know for a fact that my Gitzo GT3540LS is much more stable (and I mean against vibration and not falling over) than my old Manfrotto 055 alloy tripod. I will happily run my 500mm lens at 1/30 second on my Gitzo if the subject is still enough...
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That is just what I found.:thumbs:
 
Eric Mc said:
You really are a marketing mans dream customer :lol:
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Yeah whatever.

There is nothing unique what so ever about a 6 crossed layers structure in carbon manufacture. The yacht mast making industry has been doing that sort of thing for at least the last 10 years....infact the technology is so old now that most have moved away from it in favor of more up to date processes ;)
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Oooo, 6 layers is so passe, whoopy do. It's not in the slightest bit relevant how long anyone's been using similar techniques. I'm not saying it's unique, it just makes tripods more stable.
Lets just say that the R&D involved in producing a carbon tube for a tripod wouldn't even pay the tea bill for the R&D that goes into making a mast for a Volvo round the world race yacht or an Americas cup boat:lol:
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Oh :lol: isn't that just the funniest thing. I bet you spend Gitzo's R&D budget in your tea break you amazing person you. But it's not relevant. I don't care if you invented carbon. Someone's managed to design tripods using carbon, and they're stable - get over it.
I don't claim to know more about tripods than the people that make them.
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Make your mind up. The people that make tripods say that carbon tripods are more stable. You don't know more than them, yet you say they're not more stable, because your R&D budget is bigger than theirs, and you've given up on 6 layered carbon because there are better options.

People who make a living in landscape photography use both alloy and carbon tripods, and they don't say that carbon pods are unstable in comparison. That's not because they believe whatever the manufacturers say, it's because they can see the results in their photos.
 
Triggaaar said:
Yeah whatever.

Oooo, 6 layers is so passe, whoopy do. It's not in the slightest bit relevant how long anyone's been using similar techniques. I'm not saying it's unique, it just makes tripods more stable.
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Strange that you should use Gitzo's advertising blurb which states that it is unique to try and illustrate your point then:lol:

Perhaps so that others reading this thread can take an informed view you would be happy to detail your knowledge and experience of the structural properties of carbon vs alloy :shrug: (personal as opposed to internet research)
 
Eric Mc said:
Strange that you should use Gitzo's advertising blurb which states that it is unique to try and illustrate your point then:lol:
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The point I was making is that Gitzo say that their carbon pods are more stable than their alloy pods, and that their carbon has good anti vibration properties.

Perhaps so that others reading this thread can take an informed view you would be happy to detail your knowledge and experience of the structural properties of carbon vs alloy :shrug: (personal as opposed to internet research)
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Yes, good idea. I haven't tested carbon vs alloy yaughts - see Eric for details. I haven't tested carbon vs alloy fishing rods - see Eric for details. I have tested both carbon and alloy tripods with lenses up to 300mm with a 1.4TC, in a variety of conditions, such as the beach in windy conditions, and I have found the carbon tripod to be more stable.
 
Triggaaar said:
I have tested both carbon and alloy tripods with lenses up to 300mm with a 1.4TC, in a variety of conditions, such as the beach in windy conditions, and I have found the carbon tripod to be more stable.
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When you say "tested" do you mean carbon and alloy set up next to each other with identical head, camera, lens combination sort of stable? Or do you mean "I've just spent loads of money on this and I've read it's more stable" kind of stable :lol:
 
Eric Mc said:
When you say "tested" do you mean carbon and alloy set up next to each other with identical head, camera, lens combination sort of stable? Or do you mean "I've just spent loads of money on this and I've read it's more stable" kind of stable :lol:
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I have tested both with identical head body and lens, no not the same day but the same conditions and I can say that my lighter carbon pod was a lot more stable and that is a fact.
 
I do find it rather sad that there's always someone who needs to justify their spend with personal jibes at people with a differing opinion. :(
Lets face it, no-one here has done any scientific testing of alloy against cf tripods, so put your willies away folks. Get the kit you like or get the kit you need, as long as you're happy......... :)
 
dazzajl said:
I do find it rather sad that there's always someone who needs to justify their spend with personal jibes at people with a differing opinion. :(
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I'm afraid thats possibly my fault Daz:'( As a composite engineer who's daily life working with carbon involves destructive and non destructive testing of carbon components (including small bore tubing) to check for compression and shear strength I really should have known better than to enter into a debate concerning it's properties with someone who's knowledge seems to extend to having read some advertising blurb....and on the strength of it spent some of his hard earned on a small collection of carbon tubes:schtum:
 
Just caught up on this thread, Its got that confusing, I no longer know who's for and who's against carbon fibre !

:lol::lol:
 
I recently bought a ally Giottos tripod.

The only reason I would invest in a carbon fibre tripod is if I were carrying it long distances all day.

I do carry my ally pod strapped to my Dakine pack but for an hour or two the high cost of the CF pd is not worth it in my opinion.
 
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