car seats for small cars.

Joe, I think we will have to agree to disagree, I agree with others that I do not believe that an up is a suitable family car, I also think, as stated before that I think that child seats are not a place to compromise on safety, as others have said you will always find a way to deflect anyone's argument is wrong and that you are right. You also said on another thread about about rigging a n ipad between the front seats, I would hate to think the damage that could do flying about the car if you were unfortunate enough to be in a bad accident.
As you say everyone has there own levels of acceptable safety, again I would never have any shopping on the parcel shelf which you have said you do occasionally, I do hope that isn't with the kids in the car.
Good luck with your choice of car seats, I don't think that anything anyone says about seats will change your mind so i'm out.
 
Russ77 said:
What's the relevance? I was giving my opinion/view on car seat safety.
Click to expand...

I know you were, I'm curious as to if you already have children and thats what has given you this opinion or if you have yet to have children and you have this opinion.
 
Davec223 said:
Joe, I think we will have to agree to disagree, I agree with others that I do not believe that an up is a suitable family car, I also think, as stated before that I think that child seats are not a place to compromise on safety, as others have said you will always find a way to deflect anyone's argument is wrong and that you are right. You also said on another thread about about rigging a n ipad between the front seats, I would hate to think the damage that could do flying about the car if you were unfortunate enough to be in a bad accident.
As you say everyone has there own levels of acceptable safety, again I would never have any shopping on the parcel shelf which you have said you do occasionally, I do hope that isn't with the kids in the car.
Good luck with your choice of car seats, I don't think that anything anyone says about seats will change your mind so i'm out.
Click to expand...

cheers dave, thanks for sharing your opinions in the thread :thumbs:
 
big soft moose said:
surely its joes choice what car he chooses to drive his family arround in ? - are we really saying he's an irresponsible parent for choosing an 'up' because that's a pretty big and unfounded assumption.

The whole purpose of these five door city cars is to carry 1 or 2 adults and 2 children - they are essentially a parents run about for taking kids to school etc. VW clearly think they'll have car seats fitting in them, as they fit them with isofix points.

maybe we could just answer his question instead of having yet another bitch fight ?

on the car seat question joe - VW do recomend the isofix system , so i'd tend to suggest that you go with that - okay the seats are big, but they are a damn site safer than ones secured via the adult seat belts

(for the record I don't have kids, but i do have a nephew and every second conversation at the inlaws revolves arround some description of baby care)
Click to expand...

thanks for your opinion pete :thumbs:
 
joescrivens said:
I know you were, I'm curious as to if you already have children and thats what has given you this opinion or if you have yet to have children and you have this opinion.
Click to expand...

Fair enough.

No I don't have children..... yet.

I have several nieces & nephews that are between the ages of 18 month and 14 years old.

I've done a little research with my sister when she was looking for car seats and have formulated my opinion based on that research.

Plus it would be bad enough to have a carsh while having kids in the car, I wouldn't be able to live with myself if they were injured because I'd compromised their safety in anyway, be it that I was driving like a muppet and the collision was my fault or their injuries could have been reduced/prevented by having the correct/best car seat I could afford/fit.
 
Russ77 said:
Fair enough.

No I don't have children..... yet.

I have several nieces & nephews that are between the ages of 18 month and 14 years old.

I've done a little research with my sister when she was looking for car seats and have formulated my opinion based on that research.

Plus it would be bad enough to have a carsh while having kids in the car, I wouldn't be able to live with myself if they were injured because I'd compromised their safety in anyway, be it that I was driving like a muppet and the collision was my fault or their injuries could have been reduced/prevented by having the correct/best car seat I could afford/fit.
Click to expand...

sure.

What you'll find is that there are so many different levels of saftey in your childrens lives. I remember when we had our first one and I used to wake her up by prodding her because I was terrified she'd died in her sleep.

Some people buy those breathing monitors, others just baby monitors and others dont even have a monitor. When it comes to saftey in cars there are many many different aspects to take into account. The safest car right now is a volvo s80, it has an on the road price of £24,995

Can everyone afford this? Nope. So we all own cars that are more risky than it. Why even risk going in a car at all? You're much less likely to put your child in danger by never stepping foot in a car - why even leave the house? its safer if you stay in.

What I'm getting at is that you can spend your whole life assessing risk and you'll never be able to. You do what you decide is right for your family.

My son fell off a climbing frame a few weeks ago and I swear to god I thought he'd broken his neck. he fell right on his head. Do I then decide not to let him climb another climbing frame - or do I make him wear a helmet etc?

If you are going to preach (and I'm not saying you are) about car safety then I hope you own a Volvo s80 and I hope you also risk assess the journey you are going to do, make sure you only drive on pieces of road with the least risk of crashing in the least risky conditions at the least risky time of the day.

Otherwise more fool you!!!

At the end of the day, I own a VW up and try telling me that its no good as a family car for me all you want. That particular opinion is null. It's only us that can decide that. It would be like me telling you that your jumper isn't comfortable on you - how on earth would I know?

:clap:
 
Last edited:
Joe - I know this thread has deviated from your original question and hopefully you'll find an answer to that. But it has deviated into an interesting discussion.

And before I rattle on let me make it clear that I sincerely have no doubt that (obviously) your family's safety is of paramount importance to you.

The NCAP figures (as Tom has pointed out) provide comparisons between cars of similar classes (or weights). The figures can't be used to compare, for example, an Up with an E-Class.

Small cars don't come out of things too well when in collision with larger cars and with the Up coming in at around 900kg, virtually every other car is a larger car and then it's just laws of physics working against you. A quick scan of statistics from a variety of sources backs this up too.

So if you were to strip the argument back to the bare bones and say, given the choice, what size car would you choose to drive when taking your family with you, I can't see any (safety based) reason why you would choose a micro city car. :shrug:
 
but if you took that to its logical conclusion we'd all be driving arround in humvees , and decomissioned ammoured personel carriers.
 
Spuff said:
Joe - I know this thread has deviated from your original question and hopefully you'll find an answer to that. But it has deviated into an interesting discussion.

And before I rattle on let me make it clear that I sincerely have no doubt that (obviously) your family's safety is of paramount importance to you.

The NCAP figures (as Tom has pointed out) provide comparisons between cars of similar classes (or weights). The figures can't be used to compare, for example, an Up with an E-Class.

Small cars don't come out of things too well when in collision with larger cars and with the Up coming in at around 900kg, virtually every other car is a larger car and then it's just laws of physics working against you. A quick scan of statistics from a variety of sources backs this up too.

So if you were to strip the argument back to the bare bones and say, given the choice, what size car would you choose to drive when taking your family with you, I can't see any (safety based) reason why you would choose a micro city car. :shrug:
Click to expand...

yes it is an interesting discussion

what car do you drive now and are your kids still at home with you?
 
Spuff said:
with the Up coming in at around 900kg
Click to expand...

I didn't realise there were cars left being made that weighed that little, everything seemed to be well over the ton mark nowadays.
 
big soft moose said:
but if you took that to its logical conclusion we'd all be driving arround in humvees , and decomissioned ammoured personel carriers.
Click to expand...

Well not quite because the stats show that much larger cars start to become dangerous again - either due to poor handling characteristics or the "invincibility" factor.

But it does explain the explosion of SUV and "soft roaders" on the school run or as a family car.
 
onomatopoeia said:
I didn't realise there were cars left being made that weighed that little, everything seemed to be well over the ton mark nowadays.
Click to expand...

Parkers says that the Up is 929kg and the E-Class is 1945kg.

Mondeo is 1557kg, Hummer H3 (surprisingly) 2231kg
 
Spuff

what car do you drive now and are your kids still at home with you?
 
joescrivens said:
Spuff

what car do you drive now and are your kids still at home with you?
Click to expand...

It's a trick question, I know that now. You'll look it up and tell me that drivers of this particular car are more likely to crash because they get distracted by nosebleeds caused by high blood pressure from spending too much time on photography forums where you can always check out but you can never leave....

Yes, the kids are at home but because I cosseted them when they were tiny and explained the benefits of NCAP ratings and passive versus active safety systems, they now avoid me and insist on walking everywhere. Or getting a lift from their friends in beaten up Ford Ka's with bald tyres and huge subwoofers.

I drive a BMW 5 series but this time safety wasn't the main consideration (although I've no reason to think it might not be). There are far more things that my kids do that are probably unsafe but they are at the stage where they are more capable of making that choice - I've pretty much done my bit.

edited to add: I did have a Volvo S80 for a little while. Very nice cars and also one of the highest depreciators. You could get a nice low mileage 200hp version for under £6K - take the family drag racing.
 
Last edited:
Spuff said:
It's a trick question, I know that now. You'll look it up and tell me that drivers of this particular car are more likely to crash because they get distracted by nosebleeds caused by high blood pressure from spending too much time on photography forums where you can always check out but you can never leave....

Yes, the kids are at home but because I cosseted them when they were tiny and explained the benefits of NCAP ratings and passive versus active safety systems, they now avoid me and insist on walking everywhere. Or getting a lift from their friends in beaten up Ford Ka's with bald tyres and huge subwoofers.

I drive a BMW 5 series but this time safety wasn't the main consideration (although I've no reason to think it might not be). There are far more things that my kids do that are probably unsafe but they are at the stage where they are more capable of making that choice - I've pretty much done my bit.
Click to expand...

no trick question, but I just wondered if you still had the same feelings for safety as you did when they were younger. Sounds like the answer is no - which reveals another interesting topic.

What makes you less bothered about the safety of your children in cars now than 11 years ago? You'd be as sad if you lost them of course so what changed? and when did it change?

It goes right back to my point above - you can't forerver risk assess your life. We are always making compromises wth the safety of our family - so long as we feel ok with it then nobody should be told they are making the wrong decision for their family - would you agree?
 
The ncap ratings are relative for the class of vehicle partly too. A 5 star ncap in something big won't be the same as 5 star in something small. You really need to look at the footage and see how much damage there is.

I'd be interesting to know if either of your Up! cars had the funny steering issue that a friend's lad has noticed. He's had two that don't centre the steering randomly and which twitch the steering on a straight road. VW say it is something to do with parking it on a slope but they still gave him another, which does the same...
 
srichards said:
I'd be interesting to know if either of your Up! cars had the funny steering issue that a friend's lad has noticed. He's had two that don't centre the steering randomly and which twitch the steering on a straight road. VW say it is something to do with parking it on a slope but they still gave him another, which does the same...
Click to expand...

no cant say I have experienced that at all in either
 
joescrivens said:
no trick question, but I just wondered if you still had the same feelings for safety as you did when they were younger. Sounds like the answer is no - which reveals another interesting topic.

What makes you less bothered about the safety of your children in cars now than 11 years ago? You'd be as sad if you lost them of course so what changed? and when did it change?

It goes right back to my point above - you can't forerver risk assess your life. We are always making compromises wth the safety of our family - so long as we feel ok with it then nobody should be told they are making the wrong decision for their family - would you agree?
Click to expand...

I still have the same feelings for safety. With the current car it's probably not the best in its group but its not going to be the worst either and it's of a size that I feel comfortable driving with the family.

I think what changes though is that when the kids are tiny they are totally dependant on you. Not just car safety but everything. Now I think the majority of us do continually risk assess with small children. I don't mean analysing and writing reports but summing up various situations when you're out and about like stairs/steps, ponds, traffic, dodgy playgrounds etc. It used to be called common sense.

I don't know the exact circumstances but when you hear of stories like the baby recently falling into a harbour while its mum was taking a walk along the harbour wall during a storm, you do wonder about common sense and attitudes to risk.

Nevertheless, it doesn't stop accidents happening, like your son falling off the climbing frame or my daughter falling off the last step of a stair and getting a cartoon-like lump in the middle of her forehead.

As the kids get older though, their need for independence comes through and it is that that has to be balanced with their safety. So when the eldest said she wanted to start walking to school with her friends and no parent in tow, which also meant crossing a fairly busy road, I wasn't happy about it but it's how the balance changes.

And now when one of their friends turns up in a crappy little car with the music blaring, I'm not overjoyed about it but they've got to have their freedom and hopefully I've been able to give enough knowledge over the years that they can make their own informed decisions.

With your last point, I might've agreed with it had you not (in another thread) gone on about how you couldn't see how anyone would need anything more than an Up and that it was a great family car that gave you x squillion to the gallon and no tax etc etc. I couldn't reconcile the saving money bit with the (to me) relative lack of safety. And our driving habits and what we choose to drive can have a dramatic effect on safety - but if we disagree on the figures then that point is moot.
 
Spuff said:
With your last point, I might've agreed with it had you not (in another thread) gone on about how you couldn't see how anyone would need anything more than an Up and that it was a great family car that gave you x squillion to the gallon and no tax etc etc. I couldn't reconcile the saving money bit with the (to me) relative lack of safety. And our driving habits and what we choose to drive can have a dramatic effect on safety - but if we disagree on the figures then that point is moot.
Click to expand...

I dont recall ever saying that the Up is the car everyone should have. For example if you have 3 children it would be impossible. Can you quote me where I made this point as I think you are taking it out of context.

On your second point - the VW Up! scores a five star ncap so how exactly does it have a "relative lack of safety"? Not everyone can afford a BMW 5 series - I certainly can't. :shrug:
 
joescrivens said:
On your second point - the VW Up! scores a five star ncap so how exactly does it have a "relative lack of safety"? Not everyone can afford a BMW 5 series - I certainly can't. :shrug:
Click to expand...

If it were involved in a scrap with an Astra....the Astra would probably win....is exactly what it means. The kids inside the Astra have more chance of being unhurt than the Up!
 
tiler65 said:
If it were involved in a scrap with an Astra....the Astra would probably win....is exactly what it means. The kids inside the Astra have more chance of being unhurt than the Up!
Click to expand...

but you can use that same rationale against any car - if the astra hit a land rover it would be worse off :shrug:

it goes back to Petes point - under this logic we should all be driving tanks :bonk:
 
and even then if your tinny M113 had a collision with my challenger 2 you'd still come off worse :lol: of course the chances are we'd be travelling so slowly that it wouldnt occur
 
joescrivens said:
but you can use that same rationale against any car - if the astra hit a land rover it would be worse off :shrug:

it goes back to Petes point - under this logic we should all be driving tanks :bonk:
Click to expand...

You don't have to buy an expensive car.....just a bigger one.

If you've got 10 minutes have a read of this:

http://europepmc.org/articles/PMC3400214//reload=0;jsessionid=MmCmnOuEt5FF9lDAKuRy.2

A quote from the abstract:

Boehly and Lombardo found an increase of up to eight times in the fatality risk for occupants between the smallest and largest cars in the US. Evans, also in the US examined FARS data and noted a twofold increase in the fatality risk when the car mass was reduced from 1600kg to 900kg while Nygren in Sweden found that drivers of 800kg vehicles were twice as likely to be injured as drivers of 1400kg. vehicles. The mass effect has also been shown to be important in single vehicle accidents (Grime and Hutchinson, 1983). More recently Evans (1996) has demonstrated that the increase of fatality rates amongst small car occupants is causally related to the mass effect of Newtonian mechanics.
 
joescrivens said:
but you can use that same rationale against any car - if the astra hit a land rover it would be worse off :shrug:

it goes back to Petes point - under this logic we should all be driving tanks :bonk:
Click to expand...

But Joe..that is how the NCap is measured..it is measured against like for like cars. Just because the Up! is 5 star does not mean it would be 5 star rated in the Astra class. Do you understand now?
 
Yes, it seems that because their tests are mass and structure specific, NCAP say that test results are only comparable between cars of within 150Kg of each other in weight. Unfortunately, it's therefore fairly safe to assume that a super-mini class car, being the smallest class, will come off worse in an accident than the vast majority if not all cars from larger catergories in real world accidents, regardless of their rating.

Comparable Cars.

Euro NCAP’s frontal impact test simulates a car crashing into another of similar mass and structure. In real life, when two cars collide the vehicle with the higher mass has an advantage over the lighter one. Generally speaking, vehicles with higher structures tend to fare better in accidents than those with lower structures. Therefore, ratings are comparable only between cars of similar mass and with broadly similar structures. Euro NCAP groups cars into the following structural categories: passenger car, MPV, off-roader, roadster and pickup. Within each of those categories, cars which are within 150kg of one another are considered comparable.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
ZoneV said:
Yes, it seems that because their tests are mass and structure specific, NCAP say that test results are only comparable between cars of within 150Kg of each other in weight. Unfortunately, it's therefore fairly safe to assume that a super-mini class car, being the smallest class, will come off worse in an accident than the vast majority if not all cars from larger catergories in real world accidents, regardless of their rating.
Click to expand...

I have already posted that but it is Joe remember.
 
one point though is that although the car may come off worse , it doesnt necessarily follow that the passengers will - most modern cars are pretty hot on passenger safety, and a modern small car with decent crash precautions is better than a larger old car without them

A few years ago I had a head on crash with a pillock driving a golf gti ( I was driving a landrover 130 at the time) - he came round a blind corner on the wrong side of the road, driving like a gibbon, and I just had time to stamp on the brakes before he hit me.

His car was completely shagged , my winch mounting punched through his radiator and trashed the engine , and all the front bodywork was all crumpled like an elephant had sat on it, and various bits of crappy fibreglass bodykit detached and littered all over the highway. My landrover was still drivable allbeit with a slightly dented bumper and a cracked headlight - once the emergency services had detatched various bits of golf from it.

on the other hand both braindead barry gibbon and his bazette passenger walked away from the crash shaken but unhurt* - I had minor whiplash, a sprained wrist , and a cracked rib from being thrown against the wheel

* unhurt that is until he was charged with dangerous driving, and my insurance companies solicitors caught up with him regarding consequential loss - that probably stung a bit :lol:
 
Last edited:
big soft moose said:
one point though is that although the car may come off worse , it doesnt necessarily follow that the passengers will - most modern cars are pretty hot on passenger safety, and a modern small car with decent crash precautions is better than a larger old car without them

A few years ago I had a head on crash with a pillock driving a golf gti ( I was driving a landrover 130 at the time) - he came round a blind corner on the wrong side of the road, driving like a gibbon, and I just had time to stamp on the brakes before he hit me.

His car was completely shagged , my winch mounting punched through his radiator and trashed the engine , and all the front bodywork was all crumpled like an elephant had sat on it, and various bits of crappy fibreglass bodykit detached and littered all over the highway. My landrover was still drivable allbeit with a slightly dented bumper and a cracked headlight - once the emergency services had detatched various bits of golf from it.

on the other hand both braindead barry gibbon and his bazette passenger walked away from the crash shaken but unhurt* - I had minor whiplash, a sprained wrist , and a cracked rib from being thrown against the wheel

* unhurt that is until he was charged with dangerous driving, and my insurance companies solicitors caught up with him regarding consequential loss - that probably stung a bit :lol:
Click to expand...

I am amazed you are still with us considering what has happened to you in the last few years.
 
tiler65 said:
I am amazed you are still with us considering what has happened to you in the last few years.
Click to expand...

I'm amazed that you havent got anything better to do than follow me arround taking the pee

An armed robbery in 1996 and a car crash in 2001, and a vommiting bug in 2012, hardly qualifies as a life lived on the edge,
 
Last edited:
big soft moose said:
one point though is that although the car may come off worse , it doesnt necessarily follow that the passengers will - most modern cars are pretty hot on passenger safety, and a modern small car with decent crash precautions is better than a larger old car without them
Click to expand...

This

but it will be ignored by tom
 
Spuff said:
You don't have to buy an expensive car.....just a bigger one.

If you've got 10 minutes have a read of this:

http://europepmc.org/articles/PMC3400214//reload=0;jsessionid=MmCmnOuEt5FF9lDAKuRy.2

A quote from the abstract:

Boehly and Lombardo found an increase of up to eight times in the fatality risk for occupants between the smallest and largest cars in the US. Evans, also in the US examined FARS data and noted a twofold increase in the fatality risk when the car mass was reduced from 1600kg to 900kg while Nygren in Sweden found that drivers of 800kg vehicles were twice as likely to be injured as drivers of 1400kg. vehicles. The mass effect has also been shown to be important in single vehicle accidents (Grime and Hutchinson, 1983). More recently Evans (1996) has demonstrated that the increase of fatality rates amongst small car occupants is causally related to the mass effect of Newtonian mechanics.
Click to expand...

thanks for the post, I shall have a read soon :thumbs:
 
tiler65 said:
But Joe..that is how the NCap is measured..it is measured against like for like cars. Just because the Up! is 5 star does not mean it would be 5 star rated in the Astra class. Do you understand now?
Click to expand...

I do understand that. Srichards posted that a while ago. Keep up Tom!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top