Car insurance rip off

@Garry Edwards very similar thing happened to me a few years ago. Went from a highly modified Impreza running @ 340bhp/340lb (apexi power ecu + commander, lowered, springs, suspension, polished / ported headers, larger turbo, uprated fuel system etc. all insurance declared) to a 2l TDCI with a whole 135bhp, my insurance shot up on renewal! I was flummoxed and got a similar story "it's a new car to you".
You generally get a better value premium on a high risk car because it's a different set of specialised under-writers. An insurance company that offers a good deal on a performance car is very unlikely to offer the same value on a rep-mobile, and vice versa. Use a broker or do some ringing around. Going to the same insurer for wildly different specified cars will get expensive quickly.
 
You generally get a better value premium on a high risk car because it's a different set of specialised under-writers. An insurance company that offers a good deal on a performance car is very unlikely to offer the same value on a rep-mobile, and vice versa. Use a broker or do some ringing around. Going to the same insurer for wildly different specified cars will get expensive quickly.
Aye, at the time i swapped providers and got a much better deal.
 
No its not.:)

The insurance industry works on data. if it were random then people would also get very very cheap premiums on Ferrari's etc.

The reason for the increase in the OP would have been down to statistics. More accidents would have happened in the diesel variant than the petrol one.

The diesel version may have been more popular with reps etc and would have been involved in more claims

Some insurance companies update their data daily. So quotes can change overnight.

Its all about risk management. If blue fiestas are involved in more accidents then the insurance renewal's on blue fiesta's will increase.

Yeah, but there are so many complex factors going on that it behaves like it's random. At certain points, companies actually want to insure more risky cars to "balance" their risk (and yes, that's mad) so they drop the prices on high risk cars to balance the books.

If they were entirely data based then given the fact that they all have access to the data, all insurers should charge in the same way. And they clearly don't.
 
Yeah, but there are so many complex factors going on that it behaves like it's random. At certain points, companies actually want to insure more risky cars to "balance" their risk (and yes, that's mad) so they drop the prices on high risk cars to balance the books.

If they were entirely data based then given the fact that they all have access to the data, all insurers should charge in the same way. And they clearly don't.

It's how they value that data. Same as your credit report. Each institution puts their own merit on what they believe to be important.
 
It's how they value that data. Same as your credit report. Each institution puts their own merit on what they believe to be important.

It seems to me that it's interpreted in a way to make the most money, not to mitigate the biggest risks.
I work with data all day now, and you can spin it to say whatever you like, so long as no one questions it too much.
The problem with excuses we hear from Insurance Companies is that yes, OK, it may well be that Blue Fiestas are involved in more accidents, but why is that? Is it that Blue fiestas driven by 20 year old women are involved in more accidents, but when driven by 26 + year old women there are less accidents?
Thats being selective in the use of the data. As is the theory that new car is a bigger risk. That may well be true (and again, may well be debatable depending on the spin put on the data), but can only hold water for a few weeks. So OK, load the premium for the first couple of weeks, then return it to normal.
 
I think you've hit the nail on the head there Bernie. Whilst stats do play a part, I think the companies exploit the data to suit their own financial gain, pushing it to the limit where they can just about defend themselves but actually it's a massive distortion of the real picture.

This is because if we want to drive, we HAVE to have insurance.
 
It seems to me that it's interpreted in a way to make the most money, not to mitigate the biggest risks.
I work with data all day now, and you can spin it to say whatever you like, so long as no one questions it too much.
The problem with excuses we hear from Insurance Companies is that yes, OK, it may well be that Blue Fiestas are involved in more accidents, but why is that? Is it that Blue fiestas driven by 20 year old women are involved in more accidents, but when driven by 26 + year old women there are less accidents?
Thats being selective in the use of the data. As is the theory that new car is a bigger risk. That may well be true (and again, may well be debatable depending on the spin put on the data), but can only hold water for a few weeks. So OK, load the premium for the first couple of weeks, then return it to normal.

Mitigate: But that's pretty much the same thing. Input vs output. And thats all you see on the spreadsheet at the end of the year.

Reduce premium: Arh but they have you now. Your in. A fully paid up member.

Blue Fiesta's: But thats why they also look at other areas of data too. A blue fiesta may be loaded but then as a 40 yr old with no previous you'll get a discount on that vehicle. It's still far from random. Unfathomable may have been a better word to use..lol
 
I have to agree, new car takes some getting used to. First 10 miles can be pretty dangerous, and then you are more or less there over next couple of days.
Really! A couple of years ago at work they had a test drive event where they allow us to drive different vehicles in the Ford range. One after the other I drove a Fiesta, B-Max, Kuga, Transit Custom Van and a Transit Custom minibus. There was no need to get used to them, I felt immediately at home in each one and very easy to drive.
 
I think you've hit the nail on the head there Bernie. Whilst stats do play a part, I think the companies exploit the data to suit their own financial gain, pushing it to the limit where they can just about defend themselves but actually it's a massive distortion of the real picture.

This is because if we want to drive, we HAVE to have insurance.

Don't quote the date but I'm sure in 2010 the industry reported that for every £1 they receive in premiums they pay out £1.20 in claims.
 
Really! A couple of years ago at work they had a test drive event where they allow us to drive different vehicles in the Ford range. One after the other I drove a Fiesta, B-Max, Kuga, Transit Custom Van and a Transit Custom minibus. There was no need to get used to them, I felt immediately at home in each one and very easy to drive.

You must be a driving god then.

Or you don't really pay much attention.

I'm a professional with over 1 milllion driven miles under my belt and I can assure you that every vehicle I've ever driven is different than the last. It reacts differently, blind spots are different. parking brake is different, Switches are different. Stopping distances are different, some need to have the key in the ignition some don't. All these things mean an extra thought process.

Even the stig needs a practice lap
 
Mitigate: But that's pretty much the same thing. Input vs output. And thats all you see on the spreadsheet at the end of the year.

Reduce premium: Arh but they have you now. Your in. A fully paid up member.

Blue Fiesta's: But thats why they also look at other areas of data too. A blue fiesta may be loaded but then as a 40 yr old with no previous you'll get a discount on that vehicle. It's still far from random. Unfathomable may have been a better word to use..lol

The fact that a certain colour car is a higher risk is a random statistic though. There is no real reason for one colour being more at risk than another, it is just that one colour will have more than others, could be blue this week, red the next. Same goes for occupations. Unless your occupation means you are likely to be on the road or using vehicles more than the next person, then yes you are a higher risk. In my previous occupation as a toolmaker, I used to save anything from £20-£50
a year by stating I was a factory worker (not a lie, perfectly legal, I worked in a factory) I'm still the same person, my use of the car doesn't change so why should there be a difference in premium just because more toolmakers have made claims than factory workers. There is far too much use of unnecessary statistics.
 
The problem with excuses we hear from Insurance Companies is that yes, OK, it may well be that Blue Fiestas are involved in more accidents, but why is that? Is it that Blue fiestas driven by 20 year old women are involved in more accidents, but when driven by 26 + year old women there are less accidents?
It's not about quibbly little differences like this - or it wouldn't be if you made an effort. The insurance company will raise the premium because they know the public are lazy and won't ring around for deals. Most customers would rather moan on TP/FB than search out a deal. Unless it's discretionary/luxury spending (like a camera), then we're all over the web researching how to save a pound.

I'm lazy when it comes to insurance, but I use a broker to do the ringing around. And despite his commission he still gets me a better deal than I've ever found ringing around for myself. On average I reckon he saves me around £100/year. The only exception was when I had the TR6, when he told me which two specialists to go to direct for quotes (the specialist insurers don't allow their products to be sold via brokers or comparison sites). If you're lazy too, next time renewal comes around try a broker.
 
Don't quote the date but I'm sure in 2010 the industry reported that for every £1 they receive in premiums they pay out £1.20 in claims.

I'm gonna stick my neck out and suggest that's a bit like the energy firms bleating that they lose money on domestic supply. It may be true enough to mitigate their tax position, but if it were in general true they would all be fleeing the business. And they ain't.
 
It's not about quibbly little differences like this - or it wouldn't be if you made an effort. The insurance company will raise the premium because they know the public are lazy and won't ring around for deals. Most customers would rather moan on TP/FB than search out a deal. Unless it's discretionary/luxury spending (like a camera), then we're all over the web researching how to save a pound..


Do you use a broker near where you live, i.e. you can walk into his premises and talk to him or have you picked a broker off the internet and just phone them? Genuinely interested in trying a broker and wondering best way to choose one.
thanks
 
You must be a driving god then.

Or you don't really pay much attention.

I'm a professional with over 1 milllion driven miles under my belt and I can assure you that every vehicle I've ever driven is different than the last. It reacts differently, blind spots are different. parking brake is different, Switches are different. Stopping distances are different, some need to have the key in the ignition some don't. All these things mean an extra thought process.

Even the stig needs a practice lap
There is a big difference between driving different cars around a race track and driving different vehicles on the road.
It takes no more than a few seconds to familiarise yourself with the placement and operation of the essential controls in a vehicle to drive on the road.
 
Whenever I have changed my car, I've only ever paid the administration fee unless the car is in a higher insurance bracket. Changing from a 7yr old Mondeo ST TDCi to a 1yr old Focus ST3 cost me around £75. Mind you what they wanted for renewal was way to high, £585.00, I got the same cover with another company for £295.00 and it was about £250 cheaper than the previous years premium on the Mondeo.
 
It's still far from random. Unfathomable may have been a better word to use..lol

I'm not suggesting it's random, simply that it's something that should be simple, but is made complicated.

Being cynical, it seems to me that by making things as complex as possible it makes arguing a case against what they say are the reasons for increasing premiums impossible. That said, as some people have said, if you argue the point and threaten to go elsewhere, a reduction may well be offered. Which if they are being honest about risk in the first place shouldn't be possible, you are the same risk?

So given that risks seem to be like premiums, negotiable, are the risk assessments that reliable in the first place? We can't ever know because the Insurance industry has a closed back end.
 
The fact that a certain colour car is a higher risk is a random statistic though. There is no real reason for one colour being more at risk than another, it is just that one colour will have more than others, could be blue this week, red the next. Same goes for occupations. Unless your occupation means you are likely to be on the road or using vehicles more than the next person, then yes you are a higher risk. In my previous occupation as a toolmaker, I used to save anything from £20-£50
a year by stating I was a factory worker (not a lie, perfectly legal, I worked in a factory) I'm still the same person, my use of the car doesn't change so why should there be a difference in premium just because more toolmakers have made claims than factory workers. There is far too much use of unnecessary statistics.

Not at all.

If blue fiesta's have made more claims in the last month then its reasonable to assume in the next month the same may also happen.

Before you had your first accident you were a lower risk than afterwards. Your still the same person.
Its the same reason that young drivers get loaded. I was a very mature young driver. My premium got loaded as a result of the many other 18 yr olds who crashed. The insurance companies could hardly charge me the same as a 40 yr old with a proven track record just because we drove the same vehicle.

If your use of car didn't change then why did you change the car.
 
Do you use a broker near where you live, i.e. you can walk into his premises and talk to him or have you picked a broker off the internet and just phone them? Genuinely interested in trying a broker and wondering best way to choose one.
thanks
I've used the same broker for about 20 years. He used to be local, but over the years I've moved a couple of times and now he's about 3 hours away. But he has all my details on file so there's not much need for a face-to-face these days. It started when I needed insurance for an extended trip to Europe as a student, using a broker saved the insurance premium tax that at the time travel agents had to add - it was the travel agent sent me to the broker saying they couldn't hope to beat what he'd offer. Then when I bought my first car I tried the direct insurers (comparison sites weren't around then) and then rang the same broker, and he was substantially cheaper. Since then he's insured every car I've owned (except the TR6), done the house and contents, and does the same for almost all of my immediate family (all of whom live at least twice as far from the broker as I do). I've periodically done a ring around for comparison, but have never beaten his price by anything substantial. I've made a couple of claims over the years and the other advantage of a broker is that they deal with the hassle for you. Whenever I've thought about changing car I've always rung him first and got a quote before I make an offer on the car. He can turn around an offer in less than an hour and all I have to tell him is make/model and registration because he already has all my details on file (and he'll have two or three quotes for comparison).

I'll happily recommend my broker - Wye Insurance, Bakewell, 01629 814 840 - www.wyeinsurance.co.uk
 
I always shop around.

For example; elephant were good on my LEON TDI, then when I moved to another car, they weren't so good., even with less power, cheaper car, etc.
They couldn't even get close to the competitor and their price on comparison sites was lower than they were going to charge me, cheeky sods.
So I'm with Swiftcover. My renewal? the same less 10%. around £380 I think. However, when I used the comparison sites the Swiftcover would have charged me about £650 as a new customer.
I have no idea why it's so random. My post-code isn't great though for premiums, which winds me up. Post-codes are potentially large areas and if you're included in a slightly dodgy area, but your address is pretty much remote from the dodgy part...they don't care.
 
here's the bind though, from discussions with people in the industry, it's the industry itself that is the problem.

I don't mind paying insurance, I don't mind that faster cars have higher brackets (although people in a Micra should be charged a premium because I think statistically they cannot drive and have no intrinsic involvement in the process!)
the problem is hire cars.
If you need a replacement car, then the other person's insurance company pays for it. and the costs are huge and unrepresentative.
If you were to hire the same car privately then it would be much cheaper but the cross-charges on these cars seem ridiculous.
Also bogus claims, ambulance chasers and endless litigation.
So we are only to blame ourselves because we phone these stupid law firms; sometimes people do need help for physiotherapy if they have a genuine grievance but often it's not the case or it's exaggerated.

A bit of common-sense legislation would be good
 
They are a complete rip off! A quick comparison tells me my price changes by £200 for telling them a verified non-fault, claimed on third party write-off (my parked car, a drunk slammed into it driving it into a telephone post).

I'm now of the opinion the whole industry is a scam to the average Joe. To gain, you either buy bangers and put yourself in a position to get the claim (eg the scams). Or you drive a really expensive car and have the insurance company pick up your repair bills. Most people driving sub £10k cars will have to pay the excess for scraps or get pennies in return for write offs.
 
You must be a driving god then.

Or you don't really pay much attention.

I'm a professional with over 1 milllion driven miles under my belt and I can assure you that every vehicle I've ever driven is different than the last. It reacts differently, blind spots are different. parking brake is different, Switches are different. Stopping distances are different, some need to have the key in the ignition some don't. All these things mean an extra thought process.

Even the stig needs a practice lap

Agreed.

Some cars might be similar. They are usually made by the same company in the same period (which is what nilagin is talking about). I had little trouble driving off in Octavia 2.0TDI or Audi A3 1.6TDI because controls are very similar, yet there are some differences. Soon I discovered Octavia estate doesn't corner anywhere near good enough as A3 or Seat Toledo. Push it too far and you are in a ditch even if your old car could do it 1000s of times trouble free.

And as soon as you get into a different brand car, different power ratings, petrol vs diesel, auto vs manual all hell breaks loose before you even consider mechanical faults (and we all know recently bought used cars is bound to have something a little wrong with it, like worn out brakes...). The stupid Citroen C4 barge banger in Tenerife was a nerve wrecking experience to say the least.
 
Not at all.

If blue fiesta's have made more claims in the last month then its reasonable to assume in the next month the same may also happen.

Before you had your first accident you were a lower risk than afterwards. Your still the same person.
Its the same reason that young drivers get loaded. I was a very mature young driver. My premium got loaded as a result of the many other 18 yr olds who crashed. The insurance companies could hardly charge me the same as a 40 yr old with a proven track record just because we drove the same vehicle.

If your use of car didn't change then why did you change the car.
You are talking of two different statistics though. 18yr old novice drivers are more likely to have an accident, hence high premiums, makes sense. The colour of a car is inconsequential though, it's just a random statistic that doesn't need to be applied. As I said before one colour has to be at the top of the number involved in an accident. It doesn't mean they are more likely to be involved in an accident, their is nothing in the colour of the car that would make it a risk. The only time a colour may have a bearing on premium is if it's a special pearlescent colour which is difficult to match and blend in, meaning the car would require a total respray.

I changed my car because I fancied something newer.
 
Agreed.

Some cars might be similar. They are usually made by the same company in the same period (which is what nilagin is talking about). I had little trouble driving off in Octavia 2.0TDI or Audi A3 1.6TDI because controls are very similar, yet there are some differences. Soon I discovered Octavia estate doesn't corner anywhere near good enough as A3 or Seat Toledo. Push it too far and you are in a ditch even if your old car could do it 1000s of times trouble free.

And as soon as you get into a different brand car, different power ratings, petrol vs diesel, auto vs manual all hell breaks loose before you even consider mechanical faults (and we all know recently bought used cars is bound to have something a little wrong with it, like worn out brakes...). The stupid Citroen C4 barge banger in Tenerife was a nerve wrecking experience to say the least.
All the cars may have been same period and same manufacturer but at the time I was driving a 5yr old Mondeo, ok same manufacturer but not the same period from mine to what were brand new cars. First time I drove a Transit, I was a little apprehensive as it was my mates and brand new, After reversing out of a parking space in a car park, I realised how easy it was to drive. If you are driving at the sort of speeds that any car is likely to end up in a ditch, maybe you shouldn't be driving on the road.
 
If you are driving at the sort of speeds that any car is likely to end up in a ditch, maybe you shouldn't be driving on the road.

20 plenty then everyone. FFS. You can be in a ditch at 20mph too. SFW?
 
They are a complete rip off! A quick comparison tells me my price changes by £200 for telling them a verified non-fault, claimed on third party write-off (my parked car, a drunk slammed into it driving it into a telephone post).

I'm now of the opinion the whole industry is a scam to the average Joe. To gain, you either buy bangers and put yourself in a position to get the claim (eg the scams). Or you drive a really expensive car and have the insurance company pick up your repair bills. Most people driving sub £10k cars will have to pay the excess for scraps or get pennies in return for write offs.
The reason they want more for you being in a non fault accident is because they have a statistic that shows you are most likely to be involved in another accident within 12months, the statistic decreases each year, which is why some ask if you've been involved in an accident in the last 3-5yrs even if non fault.
Cars valued at under £2000 are considered old bangers, they figure you won't take much care of it and may have the odd scrape or small accident. Cars over that value and you're considered more careful and less likely to be involved in an accident.
 
20 plenty then everyone. FFS. You can be in a ditch at 20mph too. SFW?
If one car is likely to end up in a ditch if you are only doing 20mph, I'd say the conditions are that bad, most cars would.
 
The reason they want more for you being in a non fault accident is because they have a statistic that shows you are most likely to be involved in another accident within 12months, the statistic decreases each year, which is why some ask if you've been involved in an accident in the last 3-5yrs even if non fault.
Cars valued at under £2000 are considered old bangers, they figure you won't take much care of it and may have the odd scrape or small accident. Cars over that value and you're considered more careful and less likely to be involved in an accident.

It's a parked car on a badly designed road in Luton. Whereas my new insurance is on my driveway at my new house in a very quiet close in N London. Of course they don't take that into account in their statistics.

My old car they valued at £1500 whereas my new car costed me £5800, at time of buying the insurance last year it's still valued at £4000, I'm sure I should be ranked as a careful driver by that standard.


End of the day, there may be a million perfectly valid explanations on why the price of insurance is justified. But there are a million and one reasons why it's unjustified. Only the insurance companies are the ones who gains.
 
You are talking of two different statistics though. 18yr old novice drivers are more likely to have an accident, hence high premiums, makes sense. The colour of a car is inconsequential though, it's just a random statistic that doesn't need to be applied. As I said before one colour has to be at the top of the number involved in an accident. It doesn't mean they are more likely to be involved in an accident, their is nothing in the colour of the car that would make it a risk. The only time a colour may have a bearing on premium is if it's a special pearlescent colour which is difficult to match and blend in, meaning the car would require a total respray.

I changed my car because I fancied something newer.

If 500 blue fiesta's are involved in accidents in a 3 month period but only 1 red one. Then statistically speaking in the next 501 accidents involving fiesta's 500 will be blue and 1 red. Surely thats how statistics work.
Meaning your more likely to be involved in an accident if your driving a blue Fiesta. Hence a greater risk.

Black cars are harder to spot than florescent yellow ones.
 
If 500 blue fiesta's are involved in accidents in a 3 month period but only 1 red one. Then statistically speaking in the next 501 accidents involving fiesta's 500 will be blue and 1 red. Surely thats how statistics work.
Meaning your more likely to be involved in an accident if your driving a blue Fiesta. Hence a greater risk.

Black cars are harder to spot than florescent yellow ones.


No that just means 500 blue cars had accidents against 1 red. The statistic stops there. It has absolutely no bearing on whether a blue car is likely to be involved in an accident over a red one.
 
No that just means 500 blue cars had accidents against 1 red. The statistic stops there. It has absolutely no bearing on whether a blue car is likely to be involved in an accident over a red one.

So, say you work in a accident call centre dealing with Fiesta accidents. The phone rings. Which colour is your money on...Blue or Red.


The chances of the next call coming in being another damn blue fiesta are greater than a red one. Hence the risk is higher


What your talking about is Logic.. And don't think for a second insurance companies apply logic..:naughty:
 
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Black and grey would be more dangerous as they are less visible in marginal conditions, particularly with lights off... However a chav is more likely to drive something orange or fluorescent green; and pink... that sort of speaks for itself.
 
You could take it further.

Your at the roulette table and even though its 50:50 black or red (ignoring 00) for the last 10 times its been black. Your down to your last chip. most people would pick black
 
You could take it further.

Your at the roulette table and even though its 50:50 black or red (ignoring 00) for the last 10 times its been black. Your down to your last chip. most people would pick black

They probably would, but that doesn't make the chance of the ball stopping on black any more likely.
 
They probably would, but that doesn't make the chance of the ball stopping on black any more likely.

No but insurance is based on risk. and betting the other way would be seen as riskier based on previous information.
 
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