Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

[broc]

But bumpers and airbags are only likely to need replacing as a result of an accident. Not anything to do with the life expectancy of a car. All the airbags deploying can write off a relatively new car.

What about the airbags which fail the diagnostic check & throw a system fault warning light, resulting in an MOT fail?

 

[nilagin]

What about the airbags which fail the diagnostic check & throw a system fault warning light, resulting in an MOT fail?

In that instance airbags are more easily replaced and not so expensive. The real expense is in having to replace seat covers, pillar trim, roof linings and dashboards which are destroyed when the airbag deploys.

 

[viv1969]

What about the airbags which fail the diagnostic check & throw a system fault warning light, resulting in an MOT fail?

As mine did, and were fixed for very little outlay.
16 year old Mondeo.

 

[gman]

In that instance airbags are more easily replaced and not so expensive. The real expense is in having to replace seat covers, pillar trim, roof linings and dashboards which are destroyed when the airbag deploys.

I've got a bonnet and hinges to worry about being wrecked as well if it's a head-on and I'm doing under 30mph.

 

[nilagin]

I've got a bonnet and hinges to worry about being wrecked as well if it's a head-on and I'm doing under 30mph.

Still doesn't have any bearing on the average life expectancy of a vehicle. If it did and electric powertrain does not, as our EV champion assures us, then perhaps a Nissan Leaf having a shorter average lifespan is more prone to being involved in accidents than other cars. ?

 

[wyx087]

For a vehicle to reach the end of it's lifespan, something major and expensive needs replacing. If they claim the battery is good for 22yrs, what do you think is left? It really isn't that hard to work out. It isn't even hard logic. It doesn't really matter how long an ICE Nissan will last, it could be the normal manufacturer 13-15yr average or it could be the same 10-12yrs they have stated for the Leaf. At the moment people can still choose between ice or the few EV on the market. I would rather spend my money on a vehicle with an average life expectancy of 13-15yrs than one that the manufacturer has by their own admission given an average life expectancy of 10-15yrs.

All you've said there is that you, personally, would not buy Nissan based on an unrelated statement that they tried to advertise their batteries lasting a long time.
Unless you have worked for Nissan with inside knowledge, you are not qualified to make the bold statement.

Keep digging that hole of yours

I've simply pointed out your horribly bad logic, just to get a tangible bad word on EV's.

I think what @broc was trying to get at, is that there are many things that could write-off a car, as I'm sure you know full well. There could be as simple fault as multiple intermediate signal problems to a few of the critical sensors (ABS/throttle body/steering/etc) and the cost to diagnose and replace the wiring loom could write off an old car.

My dad's Volvo, had intermediate problem with windscreen washer jet. We took it apart and couldn't find any problem, using multimeter and oscilloscope in combination with the car mechanic's wire pokey thing and wiring diagram in Haynes. Put it all back and it worked fine for a few days. Luckily a few months now, it appears to be working okay, but low washer warning has gone on holiday.

 

[nilagin]

All you've said there is that you, personally, would not buy Nissan based on an unrelated statement that they tried to advertise their batteries lasting a long time.
Unless you have worked for Nissan with inside knowledge, you are not qualified to make the bold statement.

Keep digging that hole of yours



I think what @broc was trying to get at, is that there are many things that could write-off a car, as I'm sure you know full well. There could be as simple fault as multiple intermediate signal problems to a few of the critical sensors (ABS/throttle body/steering/etc) and the cost to diagnose and replace the wiring loom could write off an old car.

My dad's Volvo, had intermediate problem with windscreen washer jet. We took it apart and couldn't find any problem, using multimeter and oscilloscope in combination with the car mechanic's wire pokey thing and wiring diagram in Haynes. Put it all back and it worked fine for a few days. Luckily a few months now, it appears to be working okay, but low washer warning has gone on holiday.

It was Nissan's own statement that the Leaf has an average lifespan of 10-12 years not mine, so you are wasting your time trying to make it look as though I am wrong or making false statements. ABS sensors are normally on wheel bearing hubs, they are a consumable and unlikely to be the reason for a car being written off. A throttle body may cost more than a wheel bearing hub but still not enough to write off a car. They are easy to replace as well.
As far as the washer jet problem, some washer fluids will actually clog the pump etc. (BMW have turned down warranty claims in the past because washer pumps have failed after owners using washer fluid other than BMW's own). You probably just disturbed and cleared whatever blockage was causing the problem.
Wiring looms very rarely go wrong unless there is a fault from manufacture or the installation. The insulation etc on looms protect from water ingress so unlikely to corrode. If certain cars have a generic problem with a loom it generally becomes well known and just that part of the loom can be repaired, it isn't necessary to replace a complete loom.

 

[wyx087]

It was Nissan's own statement that the Leaf has an average lifespan of 10-12 years not mine, so you are wasting your time trying to make it look as though I am wrong or making false statements.

You said:

Nissan have just said their Leaf batteries should last 22yrs. That is 10yrs longer than the lifespan they give the car. Yet the average lifespan for a new car is 15yrs so expect a Nissan to die 3yrs earlier.

Granted, you didn't specifically say Nissan EV would die 3 years earlier. But have alluded to EV powertrain in multiple instances:

Did you even read the article. It says that Nissan claim that the battery will have an average life expectancy of 22 years, outliving the car by 10 to 12 years. How is that unrelated. What exactly do they expect to have died on the car before then? A 12yr corrosion warranty is pretty much standard amongst manufacturers, so It's unlikely to be the bodywork. So that pretty much leaves the powertrain that would end the vehicles life expectancy.

Still doesn't have any bearing on the average life expectancy of a vehicle. If it did and electric powertrain does not, as our EV champion assures us, then perhaps a Nissan Leaf having a shorter average lifespan is more prone to being involved in accidents than other cars. ?

Whereas my point is:

How about you show us comparable evidence (eg manufacturer statement to similar effect) that Nissan predict their ICE vehicles lasting longer than Nissan EV.

Otherwise, it's like comparing apples to oranges for the sake of saying one group of apple goes bad quicker than oranges.

Because you cannot say one thing is short lived compared to another, just based on one metric without comparable metric calculated from same methodology.

Hence, I believe, you are deliberately making baseless, false statement to generate uncertainty and doubt towards EV's.

 

[nilagin]

You said:

Granted, you didn't specifically say Nissan EV would die 3 years earlier. But have alluded to EV powertrain in multiple instances:



Whereas my point is:

Because you cannot say one thing is short lived compared to another, just based on one metric without comparable metric calculated from same methodology.

Hence, I believe, you are deliberately making baseless, false statement to generate uncertainty and doubt towards EV's.

Or you could look at it that if the average life expectancy of a Leaf is only 10 to 12yrs, buyers would be better buying an alternative EV which would have a better life expectancy based on other vehicles in manufacturers range and whether there is an abundance of older vehicles still on the road and whether they are susceptible to any major expensive faults as they reach the 13-15yr old point. Of course if Nissan give all their vehicles below average lifespan, taking those out of the average lifespan for all cars will actually increase the average lifespan for cars.

 

[wyx087]

Or you could look at it that if the average life expectancy of a Leaf is only 10 to 12yrs, buyers would be better buying an alternative EV which would have a better life expectancy based on other vehicles in manufacturers range and whether there is an abundance of older vehicles still on the road and whether they are susceptible to any major expensive faults as they reach the 13-15yr old point. Of course if Nissan give all their vehicles below average lifespan, taking those out of the average lifespan for all cars will actually increase the average lifespan for cars.

Thank you. This is a more reasonable assessment of Nissan's recent statement: Not singling out EV drivetrain and only calling into question of Nissan's use of their live expectancy number within their calculation.

We have no knowledge of how they came to their conclusion for their vehicle life expectancy, what metric was used and what assumptions were made. So it is impossible to compare their number against another number that is most probably measured differently. They also did not release what they state as battery "lasting" 22 years, so IMO the whole statement is pointless, both for or against EV batteries.

 

[nilagin]

Thank you. This is a more reasonable assessment of Nissan's recent statement: Not singling out EV drivetrain and only calling into question of Nissan's use of their live expectancy number within their calculation.

We have no knowledge of how they came to their conclusion for their vehicle life expectancy, what metric was used and what assumptions were made. So it is impossible to compare their number against another number that is most probably measured differently. They also did not release what they state as battery "lasting" 22 years, so IMO the whole statement is pointless, both for or against EV batteries.

Life expectancy is life expectancy, how can it be measured differently? Data is derived from when cars reach the end of their life and an average age is derived. Manufacturers will test components on a car to determine It's life expectancy it is then judged against cost. Nissan obviously feel that 10-12yrs is acceptable. It could be that their ice vehicles only have an average lifespan of 8-10yrs and the EV lasts longer but I still can't see it being anything else on a car giving it such a shortened average lifespan. As you keep assuring us EV powertrain needs less maintenance, has fewer moving parts so why doesn't the whole car have a 22yr average lifespan just like the battery?

 

[wyx087]

Life expectancy is life expectancy, how can it be measured differently? Data is derived from when cars reach the end of their life and an average age is derived. Manufacturers will test components on a car to determine It's life expectancy it is then judged against cost.

I've highlighted 4 possible differences for you in your own sentence above.

As you keep assuring us EV powertrain needs less maintenance, has fewer moving parts so why doesn't the whole car have a 22yr average lifespan just like the battery?

As you keep pointing out whenever I mentioned EV's cheaper servicing costs, EV have a lot of components other than the powertrain.

Also as you've rightly pointed out, Nissan ICE cars could have lower (or higher) life expectancy. We don't know. So we don't have enough data to make comparisons you've attempted to make in the last page.

 

[nilagin]

I've highlighted 4 possible differences for you in your own sentence above.


As you keep pointing out whenever I mentioned EV's cheaper servicing costs, EV have a lot of components other than the powertrain.

For a big well known car manufacturer to be competitive, I would expect it to at least meet the 13-15yr average, not have a lower life expectancy on purpose.

You have assured me that electric motors rarely go wrong and Ev's don't have a gearbox so one less thing to go wrong. Pretty much everything else is the same as found on ice cars which I have pointed out are only likely to end a car's life if it is because of an accident, so with less to go wrong there is no reason why a Leaf should reach the end of It's life expectancy before the battery and if it did, certainly not 10-12 years earlier. So if the rest of the components are the same that just leaves one major difference, the powertrain.

 

[ancient_mariner]

For a big well known car manufacturer to be competitive, I would expect it to at least meet the 13-15yr average, not have a lower life expectancy on purpose.

You have assured me that electric motors rarely go wrong and Ev's don't have a gearbox so one less thing to go wrong. Pretty much everything else is the same as found on ice cars which I have pointed out are only likely to end a car's life if it is because of an accident, so with less to go wrong there is no reason why a Leaf should reach the end of It's life expectancy before the battery and if it did, certainly not 10-12 years earlier. So if the rest of the components are the same that just leaves one major difference, the powertrain.

EVs are a fair bit heavier, aren't they? So if the rest of the car parts have been sized & spec'd as for a conventional ICE car then I'd imagine bushes, bearings, shock & the rest would fail sooner, eventually making it prematurely uneconomical to repair.

 

[nilagin]

EVs are a fair bit heavier, aren't they? So if the rest of the car parts have been sized & spec'd as for a conventional ICE car then I'd imagine bushes, bearings, shock & the rest would fail sooner, eventually making it prematurely uneconomical to repair.

They are all inexpensive consumables. If an EV is heavier then uprated items would be used, just like manufacturers do with ICE vehicles.

 

[Nod]

EVs are a fair bit heavier, aren't they? So if the rest of the car parts have been sized & spec'd as for a conventional ICE car then I'd imagine bushes, bearings, shock & the rest would fail sooner, eventually making it prematurely uneconomical to repair.

Around 10-15% heavier at a guess. Maybe 120-170kg heavier - so me and a bit! Add the fuel and oil (ICE weights tend to be quoted as dry weight not full of fluids) and the difference will be less.
Most of the weight is low down - certainly most of any extra weight is so should lower CoG and improve handling (which will also remain constant throughout the vehicle's range and won't slosh around.)
As Neil says (careful, you almost defended EVs!), any bushes, bearings etc. will be upgraded to suit, just like they are on sportier variants of ICE cars.

 

[ancient_mariner]

As Neil says (careful, you almost defended EVs!), any bushes, bearings etc. will be upgraded to suit, just like they are on sportier variants of ICE cars.

No intention to either defend or attack EVs - if they can't stand on their own merits then they can't stand. An alternative perspective (possibly reflected in the shortened lifespan of the leaf) might be that components & chassis are underspec'd to save weight, but not so much as to compromise safety. A kind of 2CV6 approach to modern car construction for similar reasons.

 

[broc]

I don't think the first time buyer of a new car is likely to worry if their car is going to last 10,12, or even 20 years unless they intend keeping it that long. Fleet car buyers certainly won't be worried, they will only be bothered about short term running costs & depreciation. The rate of depreciation for most cars flattens out pretty rapidly after the first few years anyway. I think it is too early to say what the long term residual value of EVs is likely to be, or what effect the current hostility towards diesels will have on their long term value too. I am sure anyone who bought a diesel car 4-5 years ago did not anticipate 'dieselgate' or the apparent impact it has had on their cars value.

 

[Mr Bump]

I don't think the first time buyer of a new car is likely to worry if their car is going to last 10,12, or even 20 years unless they intend keeping it that long. Fleet car buyers certainly won't be worried, they will only be bothered about short term running costs & depreciation. The rate of depreciation for most cars flattens out pretty rapidly after the first few years anyway. I think it is too early to say what the long term residual value of EVs is likely to be, or what effect the current hostility towards diesels will have on their long term value too. I am sure anyone who bought a diesel car 4-5 years ago did not anticipate 'dieselgate' or the apparent impact it has had on their cars value.

very true mate, normal people will run from diesel as it will probably hurt there pocket 3/5 years down the line
snobs wont give a toss as there jags or audis or beemers don't do hybrid and its a dirty joke to them

 

[nilagin]

I don't think the first time buyer of a new car is likely to worry if their car is going to last 10,12, or even 20 years unless they intend keeping it that long. Fleet car buyers certainly won't be worried, they will only be bothered about short term running costs & depreciation. The rate of depreciation for most cars flattens out pretty rapidly after the first few years anyway. I think it is too early to say what the long term residual value of EVs is likely to be, or what effect the current hostility towards diesels will have on their long term value too. I am sure anyone who bought a diesel car 4-5 years ago did not anticipate 'dieselgate' or the apparent impact it has had on their cars value.

But a statement has been made that EV buyers would no longer need to keep replacing their car because unlike ice cars, owners won't be chasing down the latest car that has lower emissions than the current ice vehicle and earlier statements about software updates. But now for at least one EV car we find it has a shorter average lifespan than the average ice car.
ICE cars have been around for a while, oldest Leafs are now 8yrs old, just 2-4yrs from some of them reaching the end of Nissans quoted lifespan.
For PCP and lease deals on cars to be possible, you have to have an idea of what the future value of a vehicle will be in 3-4yrs time. It isn't hard to come up with an average value in another 5 or 10years.
As far as I am aware Deiselgate didn't leave anyone with negative equity. The only people who truly suffered were the VAG owners who took their car in for the fix and ended up with problems on the vehicle that VAG could not then fix.

 

[nilagin]

very true mate, normal people will run from diesel as it will probably hurt there pocket 3/5 years down the line
snobs wont give a toss as there jags or audis or beemers don't do hybrid and its a dirty joke to them

Normal people or clueless people with no idea about the level of emissions of the latest diesel cars (cleaner than the petrol car you bought) and wish to remain ignorant about them on purpose whilst continuing to spout their scaremongering bull?
Jaguar owners have the option of an EV and Audi/BMW owners have the option of hybrids. Once again you make an unfounded, pathetic statement and the joke ( so much cleaner than you like to think) is once again, on you.

 

[nilagin]

No intention to either defend or attack EVs - if they can't stand on their own merits then they can't stand. An alternative perspective (possibly reflected in the shortened lifespan of the leaf) might be that components & chassis are underspec'd to save weight, but not so much as to compromise safety. A kind of 2CV6 approach to modern car construction for similar reasons.

The 2CV was just a bare minimalist vehicle without any unnecessary frills providing a cheap vehicle. Was there any evidence of cheaper bearings etc? The fact that it could drive safely across ploughed fields, I would say not.
There are plenty of safe, strong lighter materials that have been used in vehicle production for a good few years with more coming all the time without having to compromise on substandard suspension components and bearings. Also just because a bearing or whatever may not last as long as a more robust one, there is no correlation that it will save weight anyway.

 

[Mr Perceptive]

Normal people

But a statement has been made that EV buyers would no longer need to keep replacing their car because unlike ice cars, owners won't be chasing down the latest car that has lower emissions

And most 'Normal People' do not buy vehicles on emissions alone, they chose a vehicle to suit their purpose and comfort desires, if there is a low emission vehicle that meets this, they may choose to buy it, but low emissions is not top of most 'normal' peoples vehicle requirements.

EVs are just not 'there' yet.

 

[nilagin]

And most 'Normal People' do not buy vehicles on emissions alone, they chose a vehicle to suit their purpose and comfort desires, if there is a low emission vehicle that meets this, they may choose to buy it, but low emissions is not top of most 'normal' peoples vehicle requirements.

EVs are just not 'there' yet.

Which is why when the statement was made, I pointed out I have never replaced a car because it had lower emissions. As you say if it has, it is just a welcome bonus. As a 2nd car, I am considering a mild hybrid. Not because of the emissions, but because for the last few years I have been testing and developing the mild hybrid engine and having driven a vehicle with the engine fitted, it goes quite well. The emissions are low, but just an added bonus to what should be a fun car to drive and own.

 

[Mikesphotaes]

Bought my new diesel C class last month and very happy with it!

 

[broc]

And most 'Normal People' do not buy vehicles on emissions alone, they chose a vehicle to suit their purpose and comfort desires, if there is a low emission vehicle that meets this, they may choose to buy it, but low emissions is not top of most 'normal' peoples vehicle requirements.

EVs are just not 'there' yet.

I agree, a lot of people (myself included) buy & change cars on a regular basis, every 2-3 years anyway, I don't suppose these people give a moments thought about how long the car will last after they have got rid of it. I tend to buy pre-registered cars & keep them until just before the warranty runs out.

We have a Euro 6 diesel 4X4 for use as a caravan towcar (we have cut down on our air-miles) and a Euro 6 petrol engine convertible for local use & fun. Our annual mileage between the two cars is down to 8000 miles or less. Given that there are no affordable EV towcars or convertibles, we will be sticking with ICE for some years to come & will continue to change vehicles regularly.

 

[ancient_mariner]

The 2CV was just a bare minimalist vehicle without any unnecessary frills providing a cheap vehicle. Was there any evidence of cheaper bearings etc? The fact that it could drive safely across ploughed fields, I would say not.

The 2CV was built to be as light as possible commensurate with the tech of the time. Lots of pressed & welded parts, thin panels for the bodyshell etc. Not under-spec'd bearings, but low weight at the price of solidity. I owned and enjoyed 2.

 

[viv1969]

I thought long and hard about it, and have bought an Insignia diesel.
£0 road tax for the win.

 

[Nod]

Blue oval died, Ruth?

BTW, does that mean your recovery has progressed enough to let you drive? May it continue!

 

[viv1969]

Not died, Nod, just time for a change.
I have driven, but it was far from comfortable (the driving, not the car).
I'm still doing as I'm told.

 

[Nod]

I'm still doing as I'm told.

Boring, innit!

 

[viv1969]

Boring, innit!

Very very.

 

[nilagin]

Also as you've rightly pointed out, Nissan ICE cars could have lower (or higher) life expectancy. We don't know. So we don't have enough data to make comparisons you've attempted to make in the last page.

Quite possibly the proof you were looking for. Nissan Note rated as one of the cars least likely to need a repair based on maintenance costs for cars up to 15yrs old.
https://www.express.co.uk/life-styl...-most-expensive-cars-maintain-repair-2019/amp
So what is left to differ for Nissan to give the Leaf a shorter average lifespan?

Renault Megane (owned by the same group will use a lot of the same suppliers as Nissan for parts) is also amongst the cars with lowest maintenance costs.

 

[wyx087]

Quite possibly the proof you were looking for. Nissan Note rated as one of the cars least likely to need a repair based on maintenance costs for cars up to 15yrs old.
https://www.express.co.uk/life-styl...-most-expensive-cars-maintain-repair-2019/amp
So what is left to differ for Nissan to give the Leaf a shorter average lifespan?

Renault Megane (owned by the same group will use a lot of the same suppliers as Nissan for parts) is also amongst the cars with lowest maintenance costs.

I'm not sure you understand how to compare 2 things. You've given me data from garages. Are you really comparing this against data from manufacturer?

This would be like comparing average failure shutter counts of Canon 5D mk2 (the garage data) against Nikon's latest comparable model rated MTBF for the shutter (Nissan data). Then turn around and say Canon shutters last longer.

You have assured me that electric motors rarely go wrong and Ev's don't have a gearbox so one less thing to go wrong. Pretty much everything else is the same as found on ice cars which I have pointed out are only likely to end a car's life if it is because of an accident, so with less to go wrong there is no reason why a Leaf should reach the end of It's life expectancy before the battery and if it did, certainly not 10-12 years earlier. So if the rest of the components are the same that just leaves one major difference, the powertrain.

Please do make more assumptions, because there appears to be lack of assumptions here

And most 'Normal People' do not buy vehicles on emissions alone, they chose a vehicle to suit their purpose and comfort desires, if there is a low emission vehicle that meets this, they may choose to buy it, but low emissions is not top of most 'normal' peoples vehicle requirements.

The point wasn't about people buying cars based on emissions. Only the first wave of original Prius buyers would do that.

The point is that people (especially those who are not as well off) are able to keep a car longer without being penalised for driving an older car. If EV were widely available today, the spark for yellow vest protests would be vastly different.

 

[nilagin]

I'm not sure you understand how to compare 2 things. You've given me data from garages. Are you really comparing this against data from manufacturer?

This would be like comparing average failure shutter counts of Canon 5D mk2 (the garage data) against Nikon's latest comparable model rated MTBF for the shutter (Nissan data). Then turn around and say Canon shutters last longer.


Please do make more assumptions, because there appears to be lack of assumptions here


The point wasn't about people buying cars based on emissions. Only the first wave of original Prius buyers would do that.

The point is that people (especially those who are not as well off) are able to keep a car longer without being penalised for driving an older car. If EV were widely available today, the spark for yellow vest protests would be vastly different.

I'm not sure you understand full stop. Manufacturers test their cars for durability during the development of a product. They will have a lifecycle target for each component and test to ensure they reach that target. Components are then inspected to determine how close they are to failure. What happens once a car is sold to the public provides further data. Some buyers do odd things with their cars and durability tests are further developed to encompass those occurrences. As the Nissan Leaf has not been on sale for 15yrs we have to rely on the testing Nissan has been able to perform themselves. I can't see Nissan understating the life expectancy of their own vehicles by up to 5yrs unless they really have to.

Assumption or educated guess and use of logic. You seem to be lacking in the latter two.

People, especially those who aren't well off, can't afford an EV. They are more likely to buy a cheap car, run it until something expensive to replace breaks then replace the car.

 

[Mr Bump]

It is odd that my original post about the hopefull death of diesel has turned into the slating of EV, although I am enjoying the EV debate @wuyanxu your debating skills an EV knowledge is legendary .
people just think the only future is EV an continue to moan, the future or the next 10+ years is hybrid without a doubt. all it will take is some of the entry level companies to come to the table and they will flourish.

all is needed is 40miles on the battery with a plug in option.
battery needs to keep running up to say 40mph and that will cover so much of peoples daily commute.
highly efficient clean and quite petrol engine steps in to cover speeds over that which generally are out of towns and urban areas and local pollution is seriously reduced.

job done

 

[wyx087]

I'm not sure you understand full stop. Manufacturers test their cars for durability during the development of a product. They will have a lifecycle target for each component and test to ensure they reach that target. Components are then inspected to determine how close they are to failure. What happens once a car is sold to the public provides further data. Some buyers do odd things with their cars and durability tests are further developed to encompass those occurrences. As the Nissan Leaf has not been on sale for 15yrs we have to rely on the testing Nissan has been able to perform themselves. I can't see Nissan understating the life expectancy of their own vehicles by up to 5yrs unless they really have to.

Assumption or educated guess and use of logic. You seem to be lacking in the latter two.

Now resorting to personal insults?

Are you saying all manufacturers use the exact same criteria for their durability tests? Then why was the new Toyota Supra's BMW engine been de-tuned slightly when Toyota got the engine from BMW?
The Leaf has not been on sale for 15 years, so we cannot compare Nissan Leaf data provided by manufacturer against garage data as you've attempted to do in your previous reply. Because, let me repeat this again, their test methodology, test data and test result assessment are all different.

People, especially those who aren't well off, can't afford an EV. They are more likely to buy a cheap car, run it until something expensive to replace breaks then replace the car.

The point is that people (especially those who are not as well off) are able to keep a car longer without being penalised for driving an older car. If EV were widely available today, the spark for yellow vest protests would be vastly different.

You are talking about NOW, completely ignoring future possibilities thanks to the step change in technology.

 

[MatBin]

I'm not sure you understand how to compare 2 things. You've given me data from garages. Are you really comparing this against data from manufacturer?

This would be like comparing average failure shutter counts of Canon 5D mk2 (the garage data) against Nikon's latest comparable model rated MTBF for the shutter (Nissan data). Then turn around and say Canon shutters last longer.

If I were going to buy an article based on reliability alone, I would value actual real-life data way above manufacturer guesswork if there was no actual real-life data to back it up.
To compare your example, 5D2 actual facts quoting 200K actuations or Nikon manufacturer saying it's rated to 200K but only just released camera. My guess would be that the Nikon will probably last the same as the Canon as Nikon have been at it for quite a while.
Now compare a Ford ice vehicle with garage results against an EV manufacturer who tbh have only just started producing this type of vehicle with little or no garage results for any vehicle they produce e.g. new to market car maker. Maybe certain components could be guessed at with a high degree of accuracy if used in other similar vehicles (their non EV product line) but the unique products in the EV unless guaranteed for Xmiles/years you'd be on soft ground if it failed "prematurely" outside warranty but inside "expected" life in getting it repaired at no cost to yourself. You'd be in the same position if your ICE car failed in the same way BUT if it's a common fault or characteristic of that manufacturer you would be well aware (assuming you did your research) before purchase. Much like the known "failures" on Teslas, items may have quoted as having a life expectancy of X but they have failed prematurely and left their owners significantly out of pocket, these items are now known to have a weakness so buyers are aware despite manufacturer's literature to the contrary.

 

[MatBin]

It is odd that my original post about the hopefull death of diesel has turned into the slating of EV, although I am enjoying the EV debate @wuyanxu your debating skills an EV knowledge is legendary .
people just think the only future is EV an continue to moan, the future or the next 10+ years is hybrid without a doubt. all it will take is some of the entry level companies to come to the table and they will flourish.

all is needed is 40miles on the battery with a plug in option.
battery needs to keep running up to say 40mph and that will cover so much of peoples daily commute.
highly efficient clean and quite petrol engine steps in to cover speeds over that which generally are out of towns and urban areas and local pollution is seriously reduced.

job done

Really, Dragging a large battery round all the time and using it for the odd journey seems a very odd way to achieve efficiency to me. Be a bit like dragging round a full fuel tank if you're just doing just local journeys and topping up every time you used the car. Manufacturer's claims and real world would seem to be different which is probably why the Govt took away the tax incentive as PHEV were mainly being used as ICE for most of the time.

 

[Mr Bump]

Really, Dragging a large battery round all the time and using it for the odd journey seems a very odd way to achieve efficiency to me. Be a bit like dragging round a full fuel tank if you're just doing just local journeys and topping up every time you used the car. Manufacturer's claims and real world would seem to be different which is probably why the Govt took away the tax incentive as PHEV were mainly being used as ICE for most of the time.

nope about the weight of a passenger, and in relation to your people will just ICE no they wont if they can help it as it will be WAY cheaper to charge it for a few hours at home or even at the supermarket or at work. PHEV was a fail because it was abused by people that wanted to buy a monster truck,

imagine a Plug in Ford Fiesta hybrid or Plug in Vauxhall Corsa Hybrid or even a Plug in Citroen C3.

The 4.4 kWh lithium-ion battery developed for the Prius Plug-in fits under the rear cargo floor and weighs 80 kg (180 lb).

Fuel weighs about .7/kg per litre so if you have say 30 litres of fuel in your car at any one time you have say 21kgs of fuel.
A plug in hybrid running around town could only need 10 litres in as a backup