Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

Status
Not open for further replies.
broc said:
'Supercar' performance from an EV must surely be unsustainable for any length of time, flooring it must hammer the batteries & severely limit range somewhat?

Also, while I agree with neil_g that EVs or possibly hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles are desirable, the manufacturers have yet to deliver the choice (style) of non ICE vehicles people might want?

Personally I would be looking for something rated as being capable of pulling a 1700kg caravan for 300-400 miles to replace our diesel 4x4 or a small convertible 'fun' car to replace our other car, a Mini convertible. As far as I can see, neither vehicle exists yet?
Click to expand...
Mini have an EV coming this or next year, Don't know if it will be available as a convertible though. But as the Mini comes in quite a few bodystyles anyway, I would have thought they will do the same with EV power. Ford have an electric SUV coming in 2021 which they say will have a 300 mile range. If it is the same SUV they are talking Mustang equivalent power. I assume it will be available in Europe as well as America but they haven't said as much.
 
nilagin said:
Mini have an EV coming this or next year, Don't know if it will be available as a convertible though. But as the Mini comes in quite a few bodystyles anyway, I would have thought they will do the same with EV power. Ford have an electric SUV coming in 2021 which they say will have a 300 mile range. If it is the same SUV they are talking Mustang equivalent power. I assume it will be available in Europe as well as America but they haven't said as much.
Click to expand...
Mini EV will be a 2 door hatch, the Mini Plugin hybrid is a 4 door estate, no plans that I am aware of to make an EV convertible.
As far as I am aware very few EV makers have sought type approval for towing so far. Tesla Model X does have type approval to tow but it is at least 2x to 3x the price of a diesel 4x4 towcar & there are a small number of PHEV that are approved too, although most will not tow caravans > 1500kg.
 
broc said:
'Supercar' performance from an EV must surely be unsustainable for any length of time, flooring it must hammer the batteries & severely limit range somewhat?
Click to expand...
Isn't that the same with high performance ICE cars? The right pedal controls your range.
 
wuyanxu said:
Out of interest, what car have you got?

Does it introduce new features through OTA updates? Features like dashcam, semiautonomous lane change. Do you get a newly updated user interface after OTA update?
Click to expand...

BMW, I wasn't completely correct though. It does OTA updates for the apps, Sat Nav, phone etc bu the core software is updated via USB by the owner, no need to take it to the dealer.

It obviously does not add new features for hardware not installed in the vehicle, then again neither do Teslas. Autopilot, or what ever they call it, is available as a retro fit for a few thousand dollars so I'd guess the hardware is not in the Tesla unless spec'd at new car purchase so an OTA update isn't going to add that to a car. Same with dashcam, my car does not have a front facing camera as far as I know, I'm assuming what 'dashcam' is here :)
New user interface, I've not noticed a great change, then again I don't think I really want the thing I use to control parts of the car while driving to change that much, last thing you'd need is to be staring at a screen while driving trying to find where they've moved that feature you're trying to use.
 
Last edited:
wuyanxu said:
Isn't that the same with high performance ICE cars? The right pedal controls your range.
Click to expand...

I would guess it's the rate at which it effects things, from my experience:

  • When I had a BMW i3 as a courtesy car flooring it would drain the battery at a crazy fast rate but the instant torque was addictive!
  • I had a 2.3 Turbo petrol about 5-6 years ago and flooring it drained the petrol pretty fast but you did get nice performance.
  • My last car was a 2 litre n/a petrol and flooring that draining the petrol at an uncomfortable rate despite sod all performance (very irritating).
  • Plenty of loud pedal with my previous and current 3 litre six cylinder diesels only appears to marginally effect economy despite the performance (better than the 2.3 turbo petrol)
 
wuyanxu said:
Isn't that the same with high performance ICE cars? The right pedal controls your range.
Click to expand...


Very much so! An 1100cc motorbike ridden HARD does around 8-10 MPG but can do about 40 ridden sensibly. A couple of mates have identical bikes, one gets about 120 miles out of a tank, the other starts looking for fuel stations after 80.
 
PaulF said:
BMW, I wasn't completely correct though. It does OTA updates for the apps, Sat Nav, phone etc bu the core software is updated via USB by the owner, no need to take it to the dealer.

It obviously does not add new features for hardware not installed in the vehicle, then again neither do Teslas. Autopilot, or what ever they call it, is available as a retro fit for a few thousand dollars so I'd guess the hardware is not in the Tesla unless spec'd at new car purchase so an OTA update isn't going to add that to a car. Same with dashcam, my car does not have a front facing camera as far as I know, I'm assuming what 'dashcam' is here :)
New user interface, I've not noticed a great change, then again I don't think I really want the thing I use to control parts of the car while driving to change that much, last thing you'd need is to be staring at a screen while driving trying to find where they've moved that feature you're trying to use.
Click to expand...
Nice. I really like the part you can update firmware via USB, rather than a (st)ealer visit.

Tesla builds the Autopilot hardware in every car. You pay for a software unlock. You can also get free trial for a month sometimes.

But considering electric cars are just giant smartphones, then why couldn't new features be added? The dashcam feature was added via OTA update. They've added dog mode. Automatic wiper and blind spot assist are all added via OTA update without needing to fit dedicated rain sensor or rear quarter radar. New features are added in similar way my wife's iPhone 6s got raise-to-wake feature from iPhone 7, my mother's 5 year old 5S received update gaining much improved control centre last year. If it's not hardware limited, a 10 years old EV should receive all the same features as the newer one.

I know 2013 Model S' are still receiving security updates, they got pin-to-drive sometime last year as an option to deter keyless relay attack.

gman said:
I would guess it's the rate at which it effects things, from my experience:

  • When I had a BMW i3 as a courtesy car flooring it would drain the battery at a crazy fast rate but the instant torque was addictive!
  • I had a 2.3 Turbo petrol about 5-6 years ago and flooring it drained the petrol pretty fast but you did get nice performance.
  • My last car was a 2 litre n/a petrol and flooring that draining the petrol at an uncomfortable rate despite sod all performance (very irritating).
  • Plenty of loud pedal with my previous and current 3 litre six cylinder diesels only appears to marginally effect economy despite the performance (better than the 2.3 turbo petrol)
Click to expand...
So....... buy a diesel? :exit:
 
gman said:
Are you asking or suggesting?
Click to expand...
Both? ;)

Another trend I don't like is fitting smaller and smaller engine that is assisted or force inducted. They don't seem to get worse economy when attempting to drive quickly.

Twice, I put my Leaf in for service. Once I got a manual Micro, once a CVT Pulse (sp?). Both car seems to suffer greatly in the power department to the point I have zero confidence in them. Both had tiny turbo charge petrol engine, both were gutless and thirsty. There's also the horrible 2018 Polo 1.0 litre.........
 
wuyanxu said:
Both? ;)

Another trend I don't like is fitting smaller and smaller engine that is assisted or force inducted. They don't seem to get worse economy when attempting to drive quickly.

Twice, I put my Leaf in for service. Once I got a manual Micro, once a CVT Pulse (sp?). Both car seems to suffer greatly in the power department to the point I have zero confidence in them. Both had tiny turbo charge petrol engine, both were gutless and thirsty. There's also the horrible 2018 Polo 1.0 litre.........
Click to expand...
The engine we are developing at work and Ford had one in the Focus they entered for European car of the year is only 1.0 yet is 15% more economical than the 1.5 3 cylinder engine producing similar power.
 
The 1 litre 3 cylinder 130bhp Ecoboost engine I had in a Fiesta was a little gem, almost as much fun to drive as my current 2 litre 190BHP Mini Cooper S convertible, and a lot cheaper.
 
broc said:
The 1 litre 3 cylinder 130bhp Ecoboost engine I had in a Fiesta was a little gem.
Click to expand...
The latest version is even better and their is a more powerful version more powerful than what was available before coming in a few months.
 
There is an interesting video on one of the engineering YouTube channels that explains when small turbo engines are inefficient and use more fuel.

The Mazda engines are supposed to be quite good at getting round the limitations.
 
srichards said:
There is an interesting video on one of the engineering YouTube channels that explains when small turbo engines are inefficient and use more fuel.
Click to expand...
Was it this one?
View: https://youtu.be/9aO2vC_iMTI


The Ford 1.0 3 cylinder Ecoboost engine produces maximum torque from 1400rpm without having to enrich the fuel, It's not necessary to start enriching fuel past lambda 1 until after 4000rpm and that is only for catalytic converter protection, not knock, even then it is only enriched to 0.8 lambda and by then you would be at 6000rpm. If knock is detected by the knock sensor ( some engines will have two sensors) the com retards the spark slightly then returns it to the previous advanced spark level.
Also if the intercooler is working efficiently the air going into the combustion chamber won't be that hot, plus with variable cam timing allowing the exhaust valves to be open for longer more of the heat can dissipate from the combustion chamber. Add to that piston cooling jets where oil is sprayed onto the underside of the piston crown and a coolant jacket completely surrounding the bore and combustion chamber it is quite easy to control the temperatures and pressures so not inefficient like he is making out.
 
Not the first time autopilot has been "abused"! IIRC there was a t*** here in the UK who climbed into the back seat while on the road. Going back, there have been cases of people going to make a cuppa while their RV is on cruise control.
 
Surely with all the tech and sensors in a Tesla it would be simple to detect the driver does not have their hands on the wheel ready to take control when autopilot is being used as per Tesla's instructions and issue am annoying warning noise.
I'm sure I've seen other car manufacturers mention they have sleep detection for the driver although I think that may have been related to how the car was being driven such as wondering in a lane etc, but they must be on the way to detecting heart rate or eye movement by now. Some may argue that such a sleep detection system should be mandatory before autopilot is fitted to any vehicle.
 
I remember reading something about the Honda Legend and how the automation would switch off after a short amount of time because their lawyers were worried that if the car crashed then technically Honda could be seen as driving the car instead of the driver and they could potentially be sued. Crazy!
 
PaulF said:
Surely with all the tech and sensors in a Tesla it would be simple to detect the driver does not have their hands on the wheel ready to take control when autopilot is being used as per Tesla's instructions and issue am annoying warning noise.
I'm sure I've seen other car manufacturers mention they have sleep detection for the driver although I think that may have been related to how the car was being driven such as wondering in a lane etc, but they must be on the way to detecting heart rate or eye movement by now. Some may argue that such a sleep detection system should be mandatory before autopilot is fitted to any vehicle.
Click to expand...
I believe some manufacturers have developed a system that monitors the drivers eye level. If the eye level drops and excesses a certain amount of time it has an alarm to alert the driver.
 
nilagin said:
I believe some manufacturers have developed a system that monitors the drivers eye level. If the eye level drops and excesses a certain amount of time it has an alarm to alert the driver.
Click to expand...

Probably an integrated Sony A9 using its fantastic eye autofocus haha!
 
Bowers and Wilkins stereo in my car - no Sony crap!!!
 
Meridian :cool:
 
cosmicma said:
had to google which cars meridian was putting their equipment into ( landrover / Jaguar ) i'm going to have to get me to a dealership to have a listen :)

been a great fan of meridian audio since the early eighty's
Click to expand...

Aye it's a great system, I've got the upgraded Meridian Surround 825W with 17 speakers which also offers full Dolby digital processing including DTS, you can really enjoy it thanks to the cabin being so well insulated. The interface is easy enough to use but it's touchscreen (grrr) and not quite as quick as BMW's iDrive. Speaking of which, I had an Infiniti courtesy car today which seems to copy BMW's iDrive wheel and surrounding buttons - I would have thought it had a Patent?
 
Was thinking more the way the system works and the whole dial to navigate thing? If a window with some heated elements in it can be patented then who knows lol
 
Well, I have had a long hard think and decided my 2.0 Focus diesel has to go this week, it's done 88K miles in 7 years and sailed through numerous MOTs without much trouble (discs and pads replaced a couple of years ago) but I am thinking it will be costing us in repairs soon, dpf possibly, clutch seems a little shaky and I dare say some other things, plus its a diesel lump that' maybe not as clean as it once was.
Tested a few other cars and settled on a new one last weekend, not another 2.0 Focus (hard to find), this time I've settled on a torquey beast from BMW, auto box, getting fed-up changing gear crawling along the M25 (2.0 190 bhp diesel - Oh I'm going to Hell I know I am).
I thought about an EV, couldn't afford what I would have wanted and there's nowhere to charge at work, given it's 120 miles round trip I wasn't happy to push my luck with a range of less than 150 miles, what I could afford is ugly as sin and what isn't ugly is too expensive, next time maybe, hopefully in 3 or 4 years time there will be a lot more choice, hopefully not all SUVs either.
 
Last edited:
Which series of BMW?

I'm a 100% auto convert, although even here I'm now picky and it has to be a decent box. Besides, many have flappy paddles - although going through eight gears with paddles isn't the most fun. I'd only go manual now for a car where performance is the primary feature such as Evo, Type R, RS etc.
 
The flappy paddles on BMW usually denote that it has the sports transmission as an option, 3 series at least.
 
Worth checking out if the recall work has been done. There's 3 at least for many BMW models. 2 of them can cause car fires. Latest one is the EGR cooler issue which affects their diesels.
 
nilagin said:
Tesla change their minds again.
Not shutting as many dealerships as originally intended and instead of cutting Model X and Model S prices they are going to increase them by 3%.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-47521940
Click to expand...
Tesla never had dealerships, they have showroom stores and service centres. The former was all going to shut, now only closing "about half as many". The latter will continue to be expanded to deal with more and more vehicles in service.

3% average price increase on current price, which was cut on average 6% last time (according to the BBC article). So overall, price was cut by 3% on average compared to 1 month ago.
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/update-tesla-stores-and-pricing
As a result of keeping significantly more stores open, Tesla will need to raise vehicle prices by about 3% on average worldwide. In other words, we will only close about half as many stores, but the cost savings are therefore only about half.
Click to expand...

Sounds like the consumer are getting the benefit of store closures, normal company would just slowly close the stores and bag the profit. Unfortunately not everyone is happy to order online, so they were forced to keep a few stores open. To be honest, the showrooms are more about publicity rather than selling cars, so closing them now shouldn't cause a big drop in sales, IMO.
 
cosmicma said:
my wife has a 2 series 220d xdrive with flappy paddles :)
Click to expand...
You can use the flappy panels at any point, even in 'comfort' auto, it'll go back to full auto after a while of not changing gear or having higher revs, useful for going down steep hills and maintaining a certain speed without using the brake constantly, just drop a couple of gears :)
 
gman said:
Which series of BMW?

I'm a 100% auto convert, although even here I'm now picky and it has to be a decent box. Besides, many have flappy paddles - although going through eight gears with paddles isn't the most fun. I'd only go manual now for a car where performance is the primary feature such as Evo, Type R, RS etc.
Click to expand...
320d, no paddles. Tried a Mondeo with paddles, felt gimmicky and I want an easy life. Recalls have all been done.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top