Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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neil_g said:
its cheaper to drive and park (cost of a long term parking permit) than it is to get train 4 miles into town here.
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Trains are really expensive, unless you plan 2 weeks in advance.
Looking for Saturday for an hours train journey for 2 people - £95. I don't want to buy part of the train!

or I take the car - around £25 for fuel, I park at Hammersmith in the free parking, walk 10 mins to the tube...
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That trains likely to be a diesel as the electrification isn't finished yet...
 
Perhaps I'll go to my house in Pembroke instead
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4.5 hours to do 160 miles! It takes 2.5 hours for £60 return in fuel.

You can see why people don't take public transport instead of cars. Again like EV it only works for some travel stories
 
Byker28i said:
Trains are really expensive, unless you plan 2 weeks in advance.
Looking for Saturday for an hours train journey for 2 people - £95. I don't want to buy part of the train!

or I take the car - around £25 for fuel, I park at Hammersmith in the free parking, walk 10 mins to the tube...
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That trains likely to be a diesel as the electrification isn't finished yet...
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If I went up to Charing Cross from Kent (30 miles from London) on Saturday, then it would cost £53.60 for two railcard tickets, or as I usually do, take the Skoda, use around £10 of fuel and park on the South bank close to Battersea Park - free as long as you get there early to bag a space.
 
srichards said:
Apparently NOx from diesel is making kids fat now!
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and nothing to do with the amount of junk food shoved down their throats for the next several years,
McD's conscience is salved :D
 
Byker28i said:
Perhaps I'll go to my house in Pembroke instead
View attachment 138078

4.5 hours to do 160 miles! It takes 2.5 hours for £60 return in fuel.

You can see why people don't take public transport instead of cars. Again like EV it only works for some travel stories
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Crazy prices. When I used to train it up to Aberdeen I would often end up buying tickets from home to Manchester, Manchester to Carlisle, Carlisle to Aberdeen. That way I used to get up for around £80
 
You can get it cheaper if you book over two weeks in advance, but that was a good example of booking for the next weekend 5 days in advance...

We know transport accounts for 24% of the pollution, a percentage of that is private cars. It's easy to target the motorist, but you can't ignore that there aren't viable or attractive alternatives yet, nor that there are many other sources of pollution.

Which is why it's taking so long to change and changes appear small
 
Gaz J said:
No the people what are stopping the mess as you call it being sorted are people like you whose solution for everything is totally extreme.
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It's not my solution, it's the solution. Do you have any real notion of the problems we're facing? And If you think buying low emission vehicles, eating less meat, using public transport and maybe not having the second child is extreme, just carry on as you are. Nobody is stopping you (which is half the problem). But in doing so you need to accept you're passing everything along to future generations who will have to take very extreme measures to fix things. Or maybe they'll also choose to do nothing, in which case they'll be living in poverty and dying at 45.

It's our choice.
 
You don’t get it do you. It’s not just our choice, the solutions you propose won’t work. Successive governmets have buried their head in the sand and just let it roll on until now we are making big noises about the environment which now needs massive huge change to address. Investment in public transport is a joke, especially in rural areas, but you don’t seem to understand that. You live in your fantasy world where you can feel all warm inside because your lifestyle allows you to drive an EV and have solar panels.

So tomorrow everyone becomes a vegetarian. Massive rise in unemployment, businesses closing down, less taxes for local councils so more cuts in services. Most importantly the ability to provide enough food would be stretched.

Article on the BBC news app that hydro electric dams are destroying massive amounts of wildlife and quite often contributing to climate change. More dams are being removed than are being built. Hydro accounts for 71% of renewable power worldwide yet only 6% in the USA.

I was talking to a friend of mine the other day about this thread and his response was. Tell them to come and live my life for 6 months, then they wouldn’t feel so smug.

By the way he can’t afford a car or buy choice cuts of meat whenever he wants to so he’s probably doing more for the environment that you ever will but he doesn’t go around telling everyone they should live he same way.
 
Cobra said:
My prospective son in law, he is quite a way up in a major leasing company, ( to business) tells me that
they have been told by the government that they are not getting / can't have any more EV's for quite "some time"
Because the infrastructure is unable to cope with those on the road as it is.
They can lease the stock that they have, but won't be getting anymore. ( as above) for "quite sometime"

They also can't have anymore VW's until the current emissions situation is rectified...
It would seem that its pretty much still "on going"
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Thanks for the interesting insight.

Bad news for overall EV adoption and those company car buyers looking to get into EV.
Good news for private buyers as car companies can't seem to produce enough EV as it is. Also good news for existing EV owners, means demand will always be higher than supply, thus strong resale value.

nilagin said:
A day in the life of Tesla charging points.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/day-life-tesla-supercharger
My particular favourite is "don't use adjacent chargers as the recharge time is increased".
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Tesla is the only one actually doing it correctly. Tesla supercharger charges at 120kW maximum, but the car battery can't maintain 120kW most of the time. Tesla's solution is to build a ~180kW supply inverter to 2 stations, then first come first serve fastest charge rate. As first car charge slows from 60% onwards, second car charge speed will increase. It doesn't make financial sense to have 1:1 inverter allocation, because most of the time you are not delivering maximum rated speed.

The article did state "South Mimms has 12 of the totem-style chargers and during our five hours at the site no more than five were being used at any time." So Tesla has done sufficient planning to ensure slow charge speed rarely happens. At the same time they've built enough chargers to remove queuing altogether.

Byker28i said:
Cheers, so what we need is an investment in infrastructure with a generic branded nozzle, perhaps colour coded for the different rates? that you can fit into your car and a pay at pump method that isn't company specific. ;) :D

You can see how it's messy with thos investing in the infrastructure wanting their return, but it needs to mature before it becomes mainstream.
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It's very messy at the moment from end-user point of view. But investing now is easy: if you are installing rapid chargers, CCS and Chademo with contactless payment; if you are installing destination chargers, Type 2 socket with 32 amp (1 phase supply gives 7kW usable by all cars; 3 phase gives 22kW, max rate usable by a few, all cars can still charge at 7kW). Rapid charger will evolve in the future allowing for faster rate, but the type 2 destination charging hasn't changed from day 1, many years ago.

Instavolt are doing exact what I described for their fast growing rapid charger network.
 
wuyanxu said:
Good news for private buyers as car companies can't seem to produce enough EV as it is. Also good news for existing EV owners, means demand will always be higher than supply, thus strong resale value.
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Do those two go together? If demand is high and prices are high, that discourages people from buying EV's? There's already a premium for buying an EV car over an ICE, before you even look at the pros and cons.
 
wuyanxu said:
It's very messy at the moment from end-user point of view. But investing now is easy: if you are installing rapid chargers, CCS and Chademo with contactless payment; if you are installing destination chargers, Type 2 socket with 32 amp (1 phase supply gives 7kW usable by all cars; 3 phase gives 22kW, max rate usable by a few, all cars can still charge at 7kW). Rapid charger will evolve in the future allowing for faster rate, but the type 2 destination charging hasn't changed from day 1, many years ago.

Instavolt are doing exact what I described for their fast growing rapid charger network.
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Probably what we need is legislation for manufactures to agree a socket type, additional pins for faster charging? Also for charging points to become open, like cashpoints. Any card, gets cash/elecy out
 
Gaz J said:
You live in your fantasy world where you can feel all warm inside because your lifestyle allows you to drive an EV and have solar panels.
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I have neither an EV or solar panels. I can't afford a new car, so no chance of buying an EV or diesel until my petrol car drops to pieces. Ditto solar panels. I love the idea of generating my own renewable electricity, but I don't have the money for the capital outlay, and the government no longer provides decent subsidies.

Gaz J said:
So tomorrow everyone becomes a vegetarian. Massive rise in unemployment, businesses closing down, less taxes for local councils so more cuts in services. Most importantly the ability to provide enough food would be stretched.
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How do you come to that conclusion? There would be fewer jobs for butchers, beef farmers and abattoir workers, but there would be a huge rise in jobs providing vegetable based foods. And good quality arable land can feed many more people than using it for grazing, so the amount of food produced overall should increase if farms moved away from raising animals. The exception is low grade land such as hill farms, which are more efficiently used for sheep.

Gaz J said:
Article on the BBC news app that hydro electric dams are destroying massive amounts of wildlife and quite often contributing to climate change. More dams are being removed than are being built. Hydro accounts for 71% of renewable power worldwide yet only 6% in the USA.
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So use a mix of renewables. Diversification is the solution. Solar, hydro, wind, tidal etc.

Gaz J said:
I was talking to a friend of mine the other day about this thread and his response was. Tell them to come and live my life for 6 months, then they wouldn’t feel so smug.

By the way he can’t afford a car or buy choice cuts of meat whenever he wants to so he’s probably doing more for the environment that you ever will but he doesn’t go around telling everyone they should live he same way.
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That's exactly the point I was making: A car-free life and less meat consumption is really good for the environment.

Your friend has more reason than most to encourage people to drive less and eat less meat. His economic circumstances mean he's not gaining the benefits from car use or eating a lot of meat, but if he's on a low income, he's likley to be suffering disproportionally more effects from pollution and environmental damage caused by cars and industrial farming than the everage person in the UK. Therefore if he had any sense, he would be shouting at people to use their cars less, cut back on meat consumption and vote Green. So why doesn't he? Does he love his life so much that he feels the status quo cannot be upset? Or is he a fan of pressing his nose against the glass of the Bentley showroom and watching millionaires order new cars? :thinking:

We can choose to voluntarily make the changes to our lifestyles now, or involuntarily make them later when the planet is so stressed and broken that it can no longer sustain the economic activity it does at present. Surely it would be better if people made sensible decisions now rather than having them forced on them later?

I guess they won't. They'll wait until the government taxes them into it, or they'll drop dead with some sort of lung disease.
 
Byker28i said:
Do those two go together? If demand is high and prices are high, that discourages people from buying EV's? There's already a premium for buying an EV car over an ICE, before you even look at the pros and cons.
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Demand for second hand is on the increase, which keeps EV resale price high (opposite of fast depreciating diesels) but it is still a depreciating asset. You'll always find cheaper and cheaper Leaf/Zoe around. For new cars, manufacturers can't seem to make enough of them. The lead time is very long, so no company car buyers may help with this.

Byker28i said:
Probably what we need is legislation for manufactures to agree a socket type, additional pins for faster charging? Also for charging points to become open, like cashpoints. Any card, gets cash/elecy out
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In Europe, CCS is the standard for DC rapid charging since 2017: " In the European Union according to the Directive 2014/94/EU[26] all high power DC charging points set up after November 18, 2017 shall be equipped for interoperability purposes at least with Combo 2 connectors. However, this does not prohibit the set-up of other charging points using e.g. CHAdeMO or Tesla Superchargers."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System#Global_acceptance
With exception Tesla superchargers, ALL new rapid charger being installed since then has CCS connector. You can rock up to any of those charger with your CCS car and rapid charge.
But to be fair, Tesla's supercharger Type 2 has also been made to IEC 62196-2 specification, it's just no other manufacturers choose implement the DC aspect. Instead they chose to adopt CCS from the same standard document. Probably to avoid confusion between DC rapid and slower AC charging.

As I said above, AC destination charging is already standardised to using the open standard known as Type 2 back in 2013.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_2_connector
I can be sure my Type 2 (connect to public charger) to Type 1 (connect to my car) cable allows me to charge at any charger in any car park. There's no doubt about compatibility just like cashpoints.

It only sounds like a mess because of the rapid charger standard came in late. When Nissan has already paid for a lot of Chademo DC rapids back in ~2013. But there is already an agreed socket type, it is an open standard, the infrastructure is being (slowly) built.
 
FujiLove said:
How do you come to that conclusion? There would be fewer jobs for butchers, beef farmers and abattoir workers, but there would be a huge rise in jobs providing vegetable based foods.

That's exactly the point I was making: A car-free life and less meat consumption is really good for the environment.

So why doesn't he? Does he love his life so much that he feels the status quo cannot be upset?
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For every change in status quo, people moan about job losses. Forgetting about the job opportunities created in new industry. Perhaps those who test internal combustion engines need to think about future job perspectives ;)

Technology itself is a disruptor of the status quo. As someone once pointed out. If you bring a caveman 1000 years into his future, most things will be similar. But if you bring someone 1000 years ago to now, they will not be able to comprehend. Technology change at an exponential pace, there will be more and more changes in status quo in the near future. Energy is only one small change.

Thinking about the environment is everyone's duty, we are all in it together. Doesn't matter how much you can contribute, the first step is accepting this responsibility.
 
I refer you to Genesis lyrics from "watcher of the skies" -

Creatures shaped this planet's soil,
Now their reign has come to an end,
Has life again destroyed life,
Do they play elsewhere, do they know
More than their childhood games?
Maybe the lizard's shed its tail,
This is the end of man's long union with Earth.

Judge not this race by empty remains
Do you judge God by his creatures when they are dead?
For now, the lizard's shed it's tail
This is the end of man's long union with Earth.

Our (the UK) attempts at righting the wrongs we (humans) have wrought on this Plant over the last 300 years will come to nothing whilst other Govts do nothing, withdraw form climate change forums, pull out of nuclear proliferation agreements, impose sanctions on other nations, burn fossil fuel etc etc.

Sadly I think human habitation of this Planet is coming to an end and turning the UK into a Planet friendly nation will delay this decline by days if we are very lucky. The Planet has had enough of us and like 99% of all the creatures that have ever existed we are doomed to extinction, maybe not in the next 100/200 years but it's going to happen and there's nothing we can do to stop it. So you might as well bury your head in the sand, enjoy what you have now, feel sorry for what we are going to leave future generations and weep for our extinction but it will most certainly happen.
 
FujiLove said:
So use a mix of renewables. Diversification is the solution. Solar, hydro, wind, tidal etc.
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might want to cross hydro off that list..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46098118

"More than 90% of dams built since the 1930s were more expensive than anticipated. They have damaged river ecology, displaced millions of people and have contributed to climate change by releasing greenhouse gases from the decomposition of flooded lands and forests."
 
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Cobra said:
I doubt it matters because
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Swapping to an EV isn't going to add to congestion. If anything, high tech cars with radar and autonomous driving systems will reduce congestion because they will allow cars to drive closer together at high speed and could automatically reroute people onto less congested roads.
 
neil_g said:
might want to cross hydro off that list..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46098118

"More than 90% of dams built since the 1930s were more expensive than anticipated. They have damaged river ecology, displaced millions of people and have contributed to climate change by releasing greenhouse gases from the decomposition of flooded lands and forests."
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A lot of Dams though are for water storage rather than hydro..
 
FujiLove said:
Swapping to an EV isn't going to add to congestion. If anything, high tech cars with radar and autonomous driving systems will reduce congestion because they will allow cars to drive closer together at high speed and could automatically reroute people onto less congested roads.
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Well, thats got to be one of your more fancier claims.

Moving people all together at high speed - just need to lower the costs of trains for that... rerouting people, most sat navs/phone apps do that for you.
Realistically as EV cars take off and people cruise at slower speeds to maximise their savings/range, it'll cause congestion on major roads. The only current advantage to an EV is in towns/cities on short journeys for reducing pollution. If you're lucky the payback on the additional price will be offset from the suggested lower maintenance costs and cheap charging
 
FujiLove said:
Swapping to an EV isn't going to add to congestion.
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Roads? who mentioned roads?
Infrastructure (1). the basic systems and services, such as transport and power supplies,
Infrastructure (2) is the term for the basic physical systems of a business or nation — transportation, communication, sewage, water and electric systems are all examples of infrastructure
 
wuyanxu said:
Demand for second hand is on the increase, which keeps EV resale price high (opposite of fast depreciating diesels) but it is still a depreciating asset. You'll always find cheaper and cheaper Leaf/Zoe around.
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But the evidence is that Ev's are among the highest depreciating cars. You are still mistaking resale value with trade in value.
 
Cobra said:
Roads? who mentioned roads?
Infrastructure (1). the basic systems and services, such as transport and power supplies,
Infrastructure (2) is the term for the basic physical systems of a business or nation — transportation, communication, sewage, water and electric systems are all examples of infrastructure
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A small change in charging system will accommodate a lot more EV's: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publicatio...m-reforms-support-electric-vehicle-revolution
As mentioned earlier in the thread, the amount of electricity used by EV is not the problem. EV power supply is only a problem IF everyone start charging at peak times, which simply does not happen in the real world outside of DM doom and gloom article.

nilagin said:
But the evidence is that Ev's are among the highest depreciating cars. You are still mistaking resale value with trade in value.
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The evidences you've presented so far compare RRP of EV against its trade-in value, ignoring the government grant completely. Who pays RRP on any car?

For second hand value, isn't the resale value all that matters? I buy my car for a price, I sell it for another price, the difference is the depreciation cost to me.
For the record, my Leaf is valued to be £8000 on webuyanycar. I bought one year ago, I would have paid £9100 at end of finance, I could pay less than £9000 if I pay off the finance now. £1000 depreciation for a £9000 car over 1 year is very good. Show me a £9000 car that depreciates less.
 
Cobra said:
Roads? who mentioned roads?
Infrastructure (1). the basic systems and services, such as transport and power supplies,
Infrastructure (2) is the term for the basic physical systems of a business or nation — transportation, communication, sewage, water and electric systems are all examples of infrastructure
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Apologies. I presumed you were talking about transport infrastructure. Because you only said, "infrastructure". And we're discussing transport.
 
wuyanxu said:
The evidences you've presented so far compare RRP of EV against its trade-in value, ignoring the government grant completely. Who pays RRP on any car?

For second hand value, isn't the resale value all that matters? I buy my car for a price, I sell it for another price, the difference is the depreciation cost to me.
For the record, my Leaf is valued to be £8000 on webuyanycar. I bought one year ago, I would have paid £9100 at end of finance, I could pay less than £9000 if I pay off the finance now. £1000 depreciation for a £9000 car over 1 year is very good. Show me a £9000 car that depreciates less.
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Real world figures, the last car I traded in cost me £14,500 when purchased as a used car (4k'ish miles on the clock). I kept it for 4 and a half years (or just over), put over 120 thousand miles on the clock and traded it in for £4,500 at a main dealer, could have sold it for £1k more if done privately. If I'd kept to the average mileage of around 12K instead of the 26k'ish I do it would have been worth a lot more at the time according to Autotrader.
That was a Nissan Qashqai 2.0 diesel.

Not sure what that demonstrates but may highlight that the mileage on a vehicle has a big impact on it's value, as 'most' EV's are town runabouts doing little mileage that may help explain the perceived low depreciation. Out of interest, try putting your Leaf into we buy any car with an inflated mileage (around the 25k per year area) and see if it makes a difference to the value, I'm genuinely interested to know if the Leaf is holding value on the back of supply and demand or if the low mileage (per year) is a factor.

My cars are used a lot, both for work and home life, helps I have a fully expense'd fuel card :)
 
FujiLove said:
Apologies. I presumed you were talking about transport infrastructure. Because you only said, "infrastructure". And we're discussing transport.
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No problem, :) but the discussion was EV's and I pointed to the fact that
Cobra said:
he tells me that
they have been told by the government that they are not getting / can't have any more EV's for quite "some time"
Because the infrastructure is unable to cope with those on the road as it is.
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wuyanxu said:
As mentioned earlier in the thread, the amount of electricity used by EV is not the problem.
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I never said it was ( certainly at present) but pointed to the fact that the infrastructure ( see quote above in case you missed it first time) can't handle the amount of EV's on the road,
in basic terms there are not enough charging points across the country as whole,
granted some area's are saturated with them. And that includes CMK ( apparently)
However on my daily circa 250 mile work route, none of the garages I use for diesel ( yes I know burn the heretic) have them, nor any of my customers car parks.
 
wuyanxu said:
A small change in charging system will accommodate a lot more EV's: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publicatio...m-reforms-support-electric-vehicle-revolution
As mentioned earlier in the thread, the amount of electricity used by EV is not the problem. EV power supply is only a problem IF everyone start charging at peak times, which simply does not happen in the real world outside of DM doom and gloom article.
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We're going around in circles. The current infrastructure delivered to houses isn't capable of everyone charging cars, come home at 6pm, plug it in.

Now there's ways around that, smart charging points that only allow charging when the system can cope, but the demand in an area is measured quite granually, it's not precise. Probably OK whilst we only use 7Kw charge points, but what happens when everyone steps up to 22, 50Kw and more and batteries get bigger to add more range. Then Ev's take off and everyone has two

Thats the point when it would make sense to run a second high current capable circuit into the households, fed from a separate substation, with that fed separately, with proper monitoring. But that will cost money, either to the individual household or spread across all bills. My guess initially is on the former.
Then there's the roads to dig up...

Probablly ok in towns where I think most ev evangelists live, but not for rural...
 
Byker28i said:
Well, thats got to be one of your more fancier claims.

Moving people all together at high speed - just need to lower the costs of trains for that... rerouting people, most sat navs/phone apps do that for you.
Realistically as EV cars take off and people cruise at slower speeds to maximise their savings/range, it'll cause congestion on major roads. The only current advantage to an EV is in towns/cities on short journeys for reducing pollution. If you're lucky the payback on the additional price will be offset from the suggested lower maintenance costs and cheap charging
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1000 diesel cars travel down a road on Monday. On Tuesday those drivers all use an EV. There's more 'congestion' only if people drive slower to extend their range, resulting in a longer journey time from A to B and technically more cars on the road at any one time. You're forgetting that EV range and performance will continue to increase. Tesla drivers will already be laughing at the idea of EVs crawling along the road (Tesla X, 0-60mph = 2.9 seconds)
 
Byker28i said:
But that will cost money, either to the individual household or spread across all bills. My guess initially is on the former.
Then there's the roads to dig up...
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Not sure if this is what you are getting at, but, Someone I know, a driving instructor, has 2 EV's he decided to get the "proper kit" at home ( he has a drive for a couple of cars)
£800 for his energy supplier for the inspection, to see if its viable, (Yes it was) £200 for the actual "kit" with the addendum, that if anyone else in his block ( he lives in a terrace of half a dozen houses)
gets the kit, and they both charge together it'll wipe out the electricity for the entire street, but its not his problem as "He was there first"
The mind boggles!
 
FujiLove said:
That's your commute?
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Cobra said:
However on my daily circa 250 mile work route,
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Calling at various clients in a circular route around East Anglia, (well more like the "lumpy bit" that sticks out to the right) and no I don't "drive for a living" nor am I a courier
, although you would think so wouldn't you?
 
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To be fair though, Chris, your 250 miles isn't a commute.
 
Cobra said:
Calling at various clients in a circular route around East Anglia, (well more like the "lumpy bit" that sticks out to the right) and no I don't "drive for a living" nor am I a courier
, although you would think so wouldn't you?
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Good god. 55,000+ miles a year.

You must have a lot of Nectar points...and a huge bill from your chiropractor :D
 
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wuyanxu said:
A small change in charging system will accommodate a lot more EV's: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publicatio...m-reforms-support-electric-vehicle-revolution
As mentioned earlier in the thread, the amount of electricity used by EV is not the problem. EV power supply is only a problem IF everyone start charging at peak times, which simply does not happen in the real world outside of DM doom and gloom article.


The evidences you've presented so far compare RRP of EV against its trade-in value, ignoring the government grant completely. Who pays RRP on any car?

For second hand value, isn't the resale value all that matters? I buy my car for a price, I sell it for another price, the difference is the depreciation cost to me.
For the record, my Leaf is valued to be £8000 on webuyanycar. I bought one year ago, I would have paid £9100 at end of finance, I could pay less than £9000 if I pay off the finance now. £1000 depreciation for a £9000 car over 1 year is very good. Show me a £9000 car that depreciates less.
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So now you talking about depreciation figures on 2nd hand cars not new cars. I call that changing the goal posts to suit your own argument.
On new cars depreciation is rrp to trade in value. There are some cars where they only sell at rrp. But for those that sell below rrp still suffer less depreciation than a new EV regardless of the discount and government Grant.
Webuyanycar very rarely buy at the online offer. When they view the car they will mark down every stone chip, scraped wheel etc. and low ball you.
 
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