Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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While I see a future in electric cars eventually (cost is my only issue), I can't ever see a scenario where public transport is a high enough standard to get me out of my car. I currently do Essex to Birmingham once a fortnight minimum and it is quicker and cheaper to drive than it is to go by train.
 
Costs have spiraled on public transport. For me I think it was about 5-6 years ago the cost of train commute overtook that of running a car daily.

Even the bus is costly (plus it takes about 10x as long).
 
viv1969 said:
Savings on petrol?
Have you seemtge price of rail travel from kentto scotland?
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It's about £200 return for two adults from London to Aberdeen travelling in a couple of weeks time. When I last did the sums, I calculated we would save just over £1500 a year in fuel costs if we owned an EV. So we could do that journey six times, pay for taxies to the station, and still be quids in. Most people don't do anything like six 1000 mile round-trips over the course of a year, so they would be even better off.
 
FujiLove said:
Most people don't do anything like six 1000 mile round-trips over the course of a year, so they would be even better off.
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But if they did 6000 miles of journeys that were too long for an EV they would still be better off with ICE, not to mention the convenience. Like my trip to Kempton at the weekend for the International guitar show with a 160 mile round trip & no charging point at the racecourse.

I'm not completely opposed to EV, though I believe I will miss the experience of driving ICE, just as I miss the experience of driving a 2CV and motorcyles, but they are still not practical for many of us.
 
nilagin said:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/c...s-far-electric-cars-REALLY-travel-charge.html

Whatcar have been conducting tests on various Ev's under controlled conditions to see how they perform against each other and also comparing them against the manufacturers claimed ranges. Most fell short of the claimed ranges by 40-50 miles but the Tesla Model S fell short of it's claimed mileage by 100 miles.
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Tesla was compared to NEDC rating which is total fantasy wonk. It's not been tested against WLTP.
 
FujiLove said:
It's about £200 return for two adults from London to Aberdeen travelling in a couple of weeks time. When I last did the sums, I calculated we would save just over £1500 a year in fuel costs if we owned an EV. So we could do that journey six times, pay for taxies to the station, and still be quids in. Most people don't do anything like six 1000 mile round-trips over the course of a year, so they would be even better off.
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Sorry, even cost aside, I loathe public transport, and a long drive to a holiday destination is part of the joy for me.
Selfish? Perhaps, but no more so than those popping kids out aplenty and then expecting free/subsidised child care. :confused:
 
FujiLove said:
It's about £200 return for two adults from London to Aberdeen travelling in a couple of weeks time.
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I could do that for £150 in my car, 3hrs quicker each way too. A more economical car would do it for closer to £100.
 
nilagin said:
I could do that for £150 in my car, 3hrs quicker each way too. A more economical car would do it for closer to £100.
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545 miles each way based on google maps, so about £130-£150 in my Countryman depending on determination, or probably £110 in my old Peugeot 307 estate. Google reckons 9 1/4 hours by car or 10 1/2 on the train.

Public transport is a relative failure in the UK - too expensive and inadequate cover everywhere but major cities. It's completely ridiculous for Oxford, where it's cheaper to drive in & pay parking for a couple of hours than it is to get the P&R, especially if you have 2+ people in the car.
 
It's the same here in Exeter. And if you're lucky and can get a space by the charge points, you can get a "free" charge for as long as you pay to park.

From the top of our road to 200 yards away from Mrs Nod's studio was £2.50 6 years ago. Single. For about 2 miles. That's an hour and a half of street parking.
 
srichards said:
Tesla was compared to NEDC rating which is total fantasy wonk. It's not been tested against WLTP.
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But that is the figure Tesla are still informing customers the cars are capable of.
 
nilagin said:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/c...s-far-electric-cars-REALLY-travel-charge.html

Whatcar have been conducting tests on various Ev's under controlled conditions to see how they perform against each other and also comparing them against the manufacturers claimed ranges. Most fell short of the claimed ranges by 40-50 miles but the Tesla Model S fell short of it's claimed mileage by 100 miles.
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So, like petrol and diesel cars, they do nowhere near the manufacturers claimed mileage.
 
nilagin said:
I could do that for £150 in my car, 3hrs quicker each way too. A more economical car would do it for closer to £100.
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I know you could, but that wasn't the point I was making. I was saying that with the huge savings in fuel from an EV you could easily pay for a few long trips by rail or air.
 
ancient_mariner said:
Like my trip to Kempton at the weekend for the International guitar show with a 160 mile round trip & no charging point at the racecourse.
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According to Zap Map, there are currently four charging points at the Kempton racecourse: https://www.zap-map.com/pts/0lwoczy/

Are you suggesting they were all in use all day, or did you simply not see them and just assumed they didn't exist?
 
nilagin said:
But that is the figure Tesla are still informing customers the cars are capable of.
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Tesla also use the EPA and Real World estimates. They have a calculator on their website somewhere. They're not like Nissan. The article writer is using NEDC. They could easily have used the US EPA rating which is far better anyway. I don't think WLTP has been one on Teslas yet. There is a back log generally. If it is available and the article didn't use it then it's deliberate misinformation anyway.

The range estimates are also flawed anyway as they've included charging losses not used the in car average and multiplied it by the available and usable battery amount.
 
FujiLove said:
I know you could, but that wasn't the point I was making. I was saying that with the huge savings in fuel from an EV you could easily pay for a few long trips by rail or air.
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But as has already been said, an EV is already more expensive to buy so you have already spent that saving. Going buy train adds 3hrs to the journey time, both going and on the return, you are limited to the plane or train timetables. There is no limitation to what time you can travel.
 
FujiLove said:
It's about £200 return for two adults from London to Aberdeen travelling in a couple of weeks time. When I last did the sums, I calculated we would save just over £1500 a year in fuel costs if we owned an EV. So we could do that journey six times, pay for taxies to the station, and still be quids in. Most people don't do anything like six 1000 mile round-trips over the course of a year, so they would be even better off.
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Using the same timeline it’s £1000 for two adults return from west wales to Aberdeen
 
FujiLove said:
According to Zap Map, there are currently four charging points at the Kempton racecourse: https://www.zap-map.com/pts/0lwoczy/

Are you suggesting they were all in use all day, or did you simply not see them and just assumed they didn't exist?
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There was only a small section of the course open to us - just the carpark outside the main pavillion - so they may be in another part of the course. I followed your link, but it wasn't obvious where they were in relation to where I was able to park.
 
neil_g said:
Costs have spiraled on public transport. For me I think it was about 5-6 years ago the cost of train commute overtook that of running a car daily.

Even the bus is costly (plus it takes about 10x as long).
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There is just no incentive for me to catch a train anywhere, and I just wouldn't bother with the local buses, I walk most places.
 
My prospective son in law, he is quite a way up in a major leasing company, ( to business) tells me that
they have been told by the government that they are not getting / can't have any more EV's for quite "some time"
Because the infrastructure is unable to cope with those on the road as it is.
They can lease the stock that they have, but won't be getting anymore. ( as above) for "quite sometime"

They also can't have anymore VW's until the current emissions situation is rectified...
It would seem that its pretty much still "on going"
 
If UK cars aren't available in sufficient numbers I can imagine people will start personal imports again. It was like that with Jap performance cars. If they weren't officially imported then people would just buy them anyway and ship them directly from Japan. Japanese spec cars aren't too hard to convert to UK spec either. Emissions won't be an issue on an EV....
 
Cobra said:
My prospective son in law, he is quite a way up in a major leasing company, ( to business) tells me that
they have been told by the government that they are not getting / can't have any more EV's for quite "some time"
Because the infrastructure is unable to cope with those on the road as it is.
They can lease the stock that they have, but won't be getting anymore. ( as above) for "quite sometime"

They also can't have anymore VW's until the current emissions situation is rectified...
It would seem that its pretty much still "on going"
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A work mate went with his mother to help her get a new car. The dealership they went to is surrounded by other manufacturers dealerships who had to pre register just about all their stock in August as it would not pass the real world emissions and wouldn't have been able to sell it new after September 1st. Some manufacturers are still unable to supply certain vehicles, as they have been unable to pass the emissions.
 
Well done for finding pretty much the only negative point brought up in that article.

Shame a few more manufacturers aren't taking Tesla's lead and setting up charging points.
 
This is an area I rather thing should be regulated - require manufacturers to fit a standard charger connection, rather than proprietary, although hopefully if the majority do standardise it will make things sufficiently financially chilly for the outliers to have to adopt the others standard.
 
CCS is the new standard for DC rapid charging. Type 2 is the standard for AC. Tesla destination chargers are also type 2 AC and most places have ones that non Tesla's can use. The superchargers are paid for by Tesla owners. Part of the cost of the car goes on supercharging infrastructure. Other manufacturers could do the same but they haven't. Nissan paid for quite a few in the beginning. They haven't really added to them though.

Chademo is on the leaf and a few others but it will be a while before it is dropped.
 
srichards said:
CCS is the new standard for DC rapid charging. Type 2 is the standard for AC. Tesla destination chargers are also type 2 AC and most places have ones that non Tesla's can use. The superchargers are paid for by Tesla owners. Part of the cost of the car goes on supercharging infrastructure. Other manufacturers could do the same but they haven't. Nissan paid for quite a few in the beginning. They haven't really added to them though.

Chademo is on the leaf and a few others but it will be a while before it is dropped.
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Many car manufacturers with cars on sale in the UK are partners of BP Chargemaster.
 
FujiLove said:
So, like petrol and diesel cars, they do nowhere near the manufacturers claimed mileage.
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Both our diesels do around the stated manufacturer's figure - AlfaGT 2008 1.9 (47mpg), Skoda Octavia 2005 1.9 TDi PD (51mpg). These figures are calculated manually - full tank to empty, reset trip meter. The worst car we had was a 2008 Mazda 3 1.6 petrol, which used to return 27mpg if you were careful.
 
FujiLove said:
It's the average commute in the UK. I think it was RAC figures I read.
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It's an old document from 2013, often used by green campaigners and EV evangelists...
https://www.racfoundation.org/asset...loadables/car-and-the-commute-web-version.pdf

Whereas actually commuting times are rising significantly
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38026625
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-commute-time-bad-taking-pay-cut-study-finds/

And the latest studies by the department of transport shows that mileage is increasing
https://assets.publishing.service.g...ta/file/661933/tsgb-2017-report-summaries.pdf

24% of polution is from transport - thats all transport, and since 1990, polution has halved from transport...

So, the 'death by diesel' brigade really need to also include other sources in their hatred
 
ancient_mariner said:
This is an area I rather thing should be regulated - require manufacturers to fit a standard charger connection, rather than proprietary, although hopefully if the majority do standardise it will make things sufficiently financially chilly for the outliers to have to adopt the others standard.
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Can you use a charging point to access your preferred supplier, or do you need to have the right account to use that point? Do we need a generic point, with a generic connector, that you swipe your account card and it debits that account? It's just I've started noticing charging points now and they seem to require specific companies accounts to use those points, probably because those companies paid to install them?
 
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Most of the networks require specific account access. It's a total mess. The government should have just told them all they have contactless card and that's that. Engenie and instavolt are all contactless. Shell recharge is going contactless, Some of the polar ultra chargers are and some aren't. Ecotricity is app only for most of them apart from a few legacy 22kw chargers which use their ancient card which few people have now. The rest are a hotchpotch of apps, rfid cards and even web pages. New networks keep springing up which use their own card and their own account. It's ludicrous.

The infrastracture bill requires you can just use one without a pre existing agreement. Using some app isn't that at all. It's about time they just knocked it on the head. They haven't had the guts as ecotricity have been moaning the loudest about the cost of contactless. Polar have used the polar instant app which forces you to pay £20 up front which isn't even refundable. That shouldn't be allowed either. The whole thing is idiotic.
 
FujiLove said:
When you say, "The Green Brigade", I assume you mean people who think having clean air, water and food is more important than being rich and having lots of 'stuff'?

It's people like yourself who use phrases like, "The Green Brigade", who are stopping us sorting out the mess we're in.
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No the people what are stopping the mess as you call it being sorted are people like you whose solution for everything is totally extreme. You want people to stop eating now, not have kids and live at your work. Who elected you God.

I don’t think being rich and having lots of stuff is particularly important so you’re assumption just reinforces my opinion of your views.

I’m a realist in that where I live public transport is a joke, well paid jobs are few and far between so people can’t afford to be green in the way that they would perhaps like to be. They can’t afford to spend £20000 on a low emissions vehicle however much as they might like to. Their salaries go on keeping a roof over their families head.

But of course that doesn’t fit in with your view of the world. You’d rather see them homeless and living in an EV and look at from the point of view of less impact on the environment.
 
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srichards said:
Most of the networks require specific account access. It's a total mess. The government should have just told them all they have contactless card and that's that. Engenie and instavolt are all contactless. Shell recharge is going contactless, Some of the polar ultra chargers are and some aren't. Ecotricity is app only for most of them apart from a few legacy 22kw chargers which use their ancient card which few people have now. The rest are a hotchpotch of apps, rfid cards and even web pages. New networks keep springing up which use their own card and their own account. It's ludicrous.

The infrastracture bill requires you can just use one without a pre existing agreement. Using some app isn't that at all. It's about time they just knocked it on the head. They haven't had the guts as ecotricity have been moaning the loudest about the cost of contactless. Polar have used the polar instant app which forces you to pay £20 up front which isn't even refundable. That shouldn't be allowed either. The whole thing is idiotic.
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Cheers, so what we need is an investment in infrastructure with a generic branded nozzle, perhaps colour coded for the different rates? that you can fit into your car and a pay at pump method that isn't company specific. ;) :D

You can see how it's messy with thos investing in the infrastructure wanting their return, but it needs to mature before it becomes mainstream.
 
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