Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

[FujiLove]

It doesn't, but it would be hypocritical to post that and not to agree that battery production is bad for the planet.

Some in this thread have taken the stance that air quality in UK is more important than parts of the world where materials are mined (involving many practices that are bad for the environment).

I see. And yes, I agree that battery production is bad for the planet. But you seem to be suggesting that the battery and electric motor in EVs are worse, or at least no better, for the environment over their life-cycle than diesel engines. I'm not saying you're wrong, but where have you found that information? A claim like that would require a detailed analysis for both engines and batteries (remembering that diesel vehicles also use batteries) from extraction of the materials used to make them, through the manufacturing processes, assembly, service components over the life-cycle, fuel used (and the associated extration/generation and transport of that), plus end of life processes, recycling and disposal. For each part of this you would need to look at both the amount of pollution, type of pollution and the weighted effects of each type upon humans, plants and other animals.

 

[PaulF]

I see. And yes, I agree that battery production is bad for the planet. But you seem to be suggesting that the battery and electric motor in EVs are worse, or at least no better, for the environment over their life-cycle than diesel engines. I'm not saying you're wrong, but where have you found that information? A claim like that would require a detailed analysis for both engines and batteries (remembering that diesel vehicles also use batteries) from extraction of the materials used to make them, through the manufacturing processes, assembly, service components over the life-cycle, fuel used (and the associated extration/generation and transport of that), plus end of life processes, recycling and disposal. For each part of this you would need to look at both the amount of pollution, type of pollution and the weighted effects of each type upon humans, plants and other animals.

I'm sure some studies were linked to earlier in this thread. The ones from Germany should not be seen as typical as Germany rely on coal fired power stations quite heavily.

 

[neil_g]

I see. And yes, I agree that battery production is bad for the planet. But you seem to be suggesting that the battery and electric motor in EVs are worse, or at least no better, for the environment over their life-cycle than diesel engines. I'm not saying you're wrong, but where have you found that information? A claim like that would require a detailed analysis for both engines and batteries (remembering that diesel vehicles also use batteries) from extraction of the materials used to make them, through the manufacturing processes, assembly, service components over the life-cycle, fuel used (and the associated extration/generation and transport of that), plus end of life processes, recycling and disposal. For each part of this you would need to look at both the amount of pollution, type of pollution and the weighted effects of each type upon humans, plants and other animals.

To be fair I'm not sure they're directly comparible. E.g Nox of diesel vs co2 of mining, chemicals dumped into the ground during the mining processes etc etc etc. (sources of mining impacts have been posted throughout the thread)

If anything its six of one half dozen of the other. EV is certainly no magic bullet for global pollution.

 

[Nod]

Pretty much the only magic bullet involves it passing through lots of Homo sapiens.

 

[gman]

There's no need to look for studies to confirm this fact. Just look around you: do you see tens of millions of people in the UK ditching their cars and converting to public transport, bicycles and electric vehicles en mass? Do you see tens of millions of vegans? Do you see tens of millions of people voting Green? Or do you see people carrying on driving, eating, consuming, voting, breeding and living as they always have...as if there's no problem with the environment?

...and BTW, I'm not trying to be holier than thou here. I do nowhere near the amount that's going to be required by everyone to solve this mess.

His attitude from his post was to do what suits you, but perhaps for many in the world they are not in a position to change even if they want to. There's a distinct difference. However, it also wouldn't surprise me either if it's true because even people's road manners don't inspire very much confidence with the human race.

 

[woof woof]

I've been thinking about planet damaging technology and pollution and I remembered the effort I put in when working for manufacturing companies to comply with the end of life vehicle directive, amongst other things. I spent weeks/months communicating with suppliers gathering information, emails, phone calls... endless for every component and substance. I remember with one it came down to a printed label on a sunroof. What a job that was and in the end it was impossible to say with certainty where the paper pulp and glue came from as in reality the ingredients were just sourced on the open market and no one could say what country the stuff came from never mind if it was from a sustainable this that or the other.

But of course all this was when I was working for responsible companies in the UK. Imagine what it's like in the far east. Does anyone think there's a Woof Woof in every company diligently making sure that everything is environmentally friendly and sustainably sourced and responsibly recycled or disposed of? Not a chance. With many companies if you call/email them with a question they don't even understand there'll be a certificate on your desk saying exactly what it needs to the next day and it wont be worth the paper it's printed on. I know that happens as on occasions I had to explain it all and send example documentation to the suppliers and all they did was copy it, put their logo on it and send it back or at least that's what I suspected and I may be right.

That's one aspect of all this that does worry me, we've outsourced everything including pollution and I'm pretty sure there's a lot of compliance that frankly isn't It's just certificates compiled and sent out to order.

 

[neil_g]

http://www.speedhunters.com/2018/10/future-porsche-tesla-powered-classic-911/

Not sure how I feel about the 911 desiccration but this is the sort of convertion I could get behind..

 

[wyx087]

I'm sure some studies were linked to earlier in this thread. The ones from Germany should not be seen as typical as Germany rely on coal fired power stations quite heavily.

The long tailpipe argument is that because currently there are loads of coal fire power plants, it wouldn't improve so we should never buy EV. But the reality is that 1% of grid CO2 emission reduction is 1% of CO2 reduction across the whole EV fleet. Even 50% of CO2 reduction in a new ICE design doesn't make a tiniest dent.

wuyanxu

Switch to renewable home suppliers - there isn't the capacity to supply everyone, nor can renewable cope with surges in demand. They're also at the mercy of the weather, the seasons etc. Nuclear?
If we switch to gas, then a lot of that is brought in by tankers via Milford Haven...

Live closer to work. - affordable housing? The obvious example here is the seven bridge, one side Bristol is very expensive, the other side is half price, for a 20-30 min commute. People just can't afford the houses.
We're also at the point where work is very distributed now, mainly because we have little manufacturing, being a huge service industry.

Buy local produce. Eat less meat? - buy local meat? Is it just beef thats the issue, so pork, chickens, lamb?

Then what do we do about the construction trades. Everyone wants housing, better roads etc, yet quarrying etc is another source of particulates.

Then what about other countries. The US are relaxing many environmental laws, China exploit them to fuel their manufacturing rise etc

It's not just diesel cars, there's so many, many causes.
https://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/library/annualreport/viewonline?year=2017_issue_1#report_pdf

This is simple economics. If everyone switches to renewable suppliers, the supply won't meet demand, prices will go up for the moment, but more money is pumped into renewable and thus long term the renewable installs will increase and prices will come down. Because renewables are cheapest (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source#Current_Global_Studies) Time of day issue is solved by batteries, distributed home batteries or large battery installations and complimented by smart EV charging/V2G.

The big Tesla battery installation is on track to make back a third of its cost in one year: https://www.theguardian.com/technol...-track-to-make-back-a-third-of-cost-in-a-year While reducing grid service cost by 90%: https://electrek.co/2018/05/11/tesla-giant-battery-australia-reduced-grid-service-cost/

I agree the individual choices are not always practical. But it doesn't mean everything should be dismissed. It's the attitude that needs changing, for example, feeling the need to dismiss everything said by someone marked as "greenie". Also "It's not me, it's the other person/country"

 

[FujiLove]

It's the attitude that needs changing, for example, feeling the need to dismiss everything said by someone marked as "greenie". Also "It's not me, it's the other person/country"

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Mr Bump]

Couldn't agree more.

Yep and it is becoming apparent in this thread there are a number of people like me who are actively looking to reduce there environmental impact in steps.

• I can't afford an EV but I can afford and do own a very low emission small car (petrol) that does 50mpg. (This is ME)

• There are people out there that rampantly state I will drive whatever I want until forced to do otherwise (the disinterested its not my problem)

• People out there that are on the fence as technology is evolving and are open to change (The reasonable people)

The thing that disappoints me the most is the people who want to constantly use the GLOBAL argument that them driving a lower pollution vehicle/EV will make zero difference, instead of focusing on local pollution in the UK, moving the pollution to a power station may still output a considerable amount of CO2 but it takes it all out of our towns and cities to a place where it can be managed and treated etc.

 

[nilagin]

Yep and it is becoming apparent in this thread there are a number of people like me who are actively looking to reduce there environmental impact in steps.

• I can't afford an EV but I can afford and do own a very low emission small car (petrol) that does 50mpg. (This is ME)

• There are people out there that rampantly state I will drive whatever I want until forced to do otherwise (the disinterested its not my problem)

• People out there that are on the fence as technology is evolving and are open to change (The reasonable people)

The thing that disappoints me the most is the people who want to constantly use the GLOBAL argument that them driving a lower pollution vehicle/EV will make zero difference, instead of focusing on local pollution in the UK, moving the pollution to a power station may still output a considerable amount of CO2 but it takes it all out of our towns and cities to a place where it can be managed and treated etc.

Perhaps if you didn't put so much of your wages into a pension to avoid paying tax, you could have bought an EV. Pension will be no good to you if you die early from a respiratory complaint.

Thurrock in Essex has a power station and includes several towns and has one of the worst emissions levels in the UK so how will increasing their power station CO2 levels help them.

You could have bought a Euro 6 diesel car, CO2 levels would have been far lower than your small petrol engined car, Box levels probably similar and capable of better fuel consumption, so what makes you so sure you made the right choice.

You say you are actively doing your bit to reduce you environmental impact. Does that mean you are now driving at a more sensible speed instead of holding everyone up, increasing their fuel consumption and emissions as a result?

 

[Nod]

I can't afford an EV

Bullsh*t.

Sell your house in Crete and use the cash to buy an EV. That way, you'll also reduce your personal Diesel usage (don't forget that most airport vehicles are Diesel powered) as well as the jet fuel to and from Crete.

 

[Mr Bump]

Bullsh*t.

Sell your house in Crete and use the cash to buy an EV. That way, you'll also reduce your personal Diesel usage (don't forget that most airport vehicles are Diesel powered) as well as the jet fuel to and from Crete.

hahahah yeah right
youre more full of b******t

 

[neil_g]

waffle

as usual youre ignoring the majority who would fall into the "would love to drive a vehicle better for the environment but EV does not suit the manor of travel for me".

 

[woof woof]

Electric cars may make sense for people in London and other big cities but what are you supposed to do if you live in more rural areas? Take the electric bus? Good luck walking to the bus stop and carrying shopping. There are many people driving today who would be house bound without a fossil fuel powered car, electric cars just don't have the range or charging time and infrastructure yet to make them anywhere near viable for some.

 

[Mr Bump]

Jaguar Land Rover makes loss as sales slide 13%

many of its models have diesel engines and have therefore been affected by recent environmental worries and it is seen as having been too slow to adapt to demands for new hybrid and electric versions.

The North American market is slowing down, but it is in China that it has had its biggest problems. JLR says sales there have been hit by consumer uncertainty following import duty changes and escalating trade tensions with the US,
but other luxury car brands are increasing sales there, so it is not clear why JLR is suffering so badly.

 

[neil_g]

Jaguar Land Rover makes loss as sales slide 13%

many of its models have diesel engines and have therefore been affected by recent environmental worries and it is seen as having been too slow to adapt to demands for new hybrid and electric versions.

The North American market is slowing down, but it is in China that it has had its biggest problems. JLR says sales there have been hit by consumer uncertainty following import duty changes and escalating trade tensions with the US,
but other luxury car brands are increasing sales there, so it is not clear why JLR is suffering so badly.

how about you stop RSS feeding the thread and respond to some of the points given to you?

 

[nilagin]

hahahah yeah right
youre more full of b******t

So what you are saying is, "Do as I say, whilst I do as I like".

 

[PaulF]

hahahah yeah right
youre more full of b******t

I think what people are pointing out is that your statement 'I can't afford an EV' is incorrect given your previous statements regarding pension/NI contributions/foreign property ownership and early retirement plans as it is in fact your choice not to buy an EV as clearly you could afford one if you chose to.
Mind you, as you have previously stated that you put tyres on a wood burner so your environmental credentials don't really stand up to too much scrutiny.

You clearly just don't like diesel cars.

 

[nilagin]

Mind you, as you have previously stated that you put tyres on a wood burner so your environmental credentials don't really stand up to too much scrutiny.

You clearly just don't like diesel cars.

He doesn't like diesel cars, he doesn't like JLR cars, he doesn't know anything about emissions. He doesn't even know which cars have diesel or petrol engines.

 

[Byker28i]

as usual youre ignoring the majority who would fall into the "would love to drive a vehicle better for the environment but EV does not suit the manor of travel for me".

or that EV cars aren't yet viable for many of the journeys that many undertake. It would be fine for those with large driveways, a number of garages and huge pockets who could afford a fleet of vehicles so they can choose which vehicle, but the simple argument at the moment is that for the majority who need a family vehicle, an EV doesn't work, either on price, range, or ability to charge it

 

[Byker28i]

The long tailpipe argument is that because currently there are loads of coal fire power plants, it wouldn't improve so we should never buy EV. But the reality is that 1% of grid CO2 emission reduction is 1% of CO2 reduction across the whole EV fleet. Even 50% of CO2 reduction in a new ICE design doesn't make a tiniest dent.

This is simple economics. If everyone switches to renewable suppliers, the supply won't meet demand, prices will go up for the moment, but more money is pumped into renewable and thus long term the renewable installs will increase and prices will come down. Because renewables are cheapest (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source#Current_Global_Studies) Time of day issue is solved by batteries, distributed home batteries or large battery installations and complimented by smart EV charging/V2G.

The big Tesla battery installation is on track to make back a third of its cost in one year: https://www.theguardian.com/technol...-track-to-make-back-a-third-of-cost-in-a-year While reducing grid service cost by 90%: https://electrek.co/2018/05/11/tesla-giant-battery-australia-reduced-grid-service-cost/

I agree the individual choices are not always practical. But it doesn't mean everything should be dismissed. It's the attitude that needs changing, for example, feeling the need to dismiss everything said by someone marked as "greenie". Also "It's not me, it's the other person/country"

Don't get me wrong, I can see the advantages of going EV, but just look at the unsurmountable issues with the infrastructure to provide that.

Huge battery storage technology to backup the EV battery technology? Where do those precious metals come from and whats the environmental impact of producing those?

They'd need to be a huge increase in storage if you wanted to solely rely on renewable energy, by it's very nature it's an unreliable, regular source in this country. The sun levels cause output to drop significantly during many months of the year. Windfarms can be shut down from too much wind as well as too little. Tidal would be good but needs huge investment. Methane power from tips etc produce a tiny amount currently.
You need probably Nuclear Power to back up those renewable sources, I don't think you could ever go fully renewable.

One thought I had was actually EV cars are themselves a huge battery storage system capable of delivering power. Can we use these as a storage system that feeds back into the house in times of supply not meeting demand?

Then there's the actual ability to manage and provide this huge infrastructure project you're talking about. Just look at the electrification of the GWR line, where they have full access to the land, complete control over the existing infrastructure and the budget, yet it's years behind schedule, over budget etc. They are currently talking about running electric trains to swindon then swapping passengers over to diesel trains for the rest of the journey...

We haven't the infrastructure locally to cope with everyone having EV cars, so thats new or additional substations, new, bigger cables around the local circuits, or maybe a separate circuit designed solely for charging cars, that can be centrally managed?

I think you've a simplistic view of whats actually required, what technology is in the pipeline...
And currently we'll always need fossil fuels because of the power to weight and easily transportability. Think Planes, boats, the military...

EV vehicles is not the answer to everything. It's part of a solution

 

[srichards]

Nissan Leafs can do V2G ie vehicle to grid. There's a couple of energy companies trialling it.

Grid storage should have been done years ago.

We might need fossil fuels but unless someone comes up with an alternative they'll all be gone so you either stop using them or find alternatives. Peak oil has been hit regularly since oil was found and at some point it will be the actual peak oil and there will actually be none left. I think you'll end up with some kind of liquified gas as an alternative for large machinery. Or the the very inefficient hydrogen. It won't be oil and fossil based gas as there won't be any left.

 

[FujiLove]

or that EV cars aren't yet viable for many of the journeys that many undertake. It would be fine for those with large driveways, a number of garages and huge pockets who could afford a fleet of vehicles so they can choose which vehicle, but the simple argument at the moment is that for the majority who need a family vehicle, an EV doesn't work, either on price, range, or ability to charge it

I think that's the perception, but the reality is different. For instance, consider the fact that millions of cars are used simply to commute to work. The average UK commute is ten miles, and the old Nissan Leaf has about 90 miles of 'real world' range, so you wouldn't even have to bother plugging it in most nights. Yes, it's nice to be able to jump in a car and just drive for 400 miles, but how often is the average car used like that? And how safe is that anyway? You should probably be taking a break after 90 minutes of driving, so that would be an ideal time to charge up while you stretch your legs and grab a drink. Most very long journeys are made on motorways anyway, which have loads of charging stations.

If you live in the South of England and are heading off on holiday to the Scottish highlands, then travel by other means an hire a car when you get there. It's dirt cheap to hire basic used cars these days. The savings made in fuel will pay for several weeks of car hire per year. And I think I'm right in saying that some manufacturers (VW?) offers access to conventional vehicles for their EV owners.

If owning an EV is such a drama and inconvenience, why do so few EV owners go back to a combustion engine?

 

[Tigger.ufo]

If owning an EV is such a drama and inconvenience, why do so few EV owners go back to a combustion engine?

Because they chose an EV to suit their needs?

 

[ancient_mariner]

Because they chose an EV to suit their needs?

Or like the ones I know, own ICE powered cars for their non-commute driving.

 

[gman]

I've never really looked but what's the depreciation like with electric cars compared to regular engines?

 

[srichards]

I've never really looked but what's the depreciation like with electric cars compared to regular engines?

High. They're over priced to begin with in most cases though. Never buy one for cash. PCP/Leasing is always vastly cheaper. Or wait until they're second hand.

Manufacturers are setting list prices to daft numbers with a lot of cars these days. Most people buy with PCP and just look at the monthly payments for the time they want the car so they know they can say the car is worth X and it's really only 1/2 X as nobody in their right mind would buy it for X if they had to pay it all in one lump.

 

[wyx087]

Huge battery storage technology to backup the EV battery technology? Where do those precious metals come from and whats the environmental impact of producing those?

One thought I had was actually EV cars are themselves a huge battery storage system capable of delivering power. Can we use these as a storage system that feeds back into the house in times of supply not meeting demand?

We haven't the infrastructure locally to cope with everyone having EV cars, so thats new or additional substations, new, bigger cables around the local circuits, or maybe a separate circuit designed solely for charging cars, that can be centrally managed?

I think you've a simplistic view of whats actually required, what technology is in the pipeline...

EV vehicles is not the answer to everything. It's part of a solution

I am taking a top level view of the whole electricity network + cars as system of systems, where problems from one system can be solved by implementing existing technology (smart EV chargers are at TRL 8 if not 9) in the other.

EV is part of the solution, both to emissions AND our energy demand.

Let's take your questions one by one:

- Huge demand for battery to make energy storage? used EV batteries. or just good old hydro pumps to store electricity as kinetic energy.

- Yes. EV cars themselves can be made to serve as energy storage. This is known as V2G. All Nissan Leaf (as early as 2011) is compatible with this. A Norway company are using a lot of commercial e-NV200 with V2G to stabilise the grid with great success.

- As more use of distributed home batteries. The demand on the whole national grid will be less as more and more peak demand is spread over time. Yes, I agree in the meantime, before renewable catches up, a strong backbone type power source is needed, perhaps nuclear. But fast response, high polluting power sources like coal and gas should be removed in place of energy storage stations before distributed home battery can be put in place.

- Management of these large projects is indeed highly questionable. But more importantly we need to just get on with it, like the Australia Tesla battery install.

I've never really looked but what's the depreciation like with electric cars compared to regular engines?

I bought my '64 18k Nissan Leaf Tekna 24kWh EV just over 1 year ago, would have paid £9100 after all payments. If I sell it to a specialist trader (less than private sale), I can get £8500 comfortably if I were to sell now.

A '65 19k Nissan Leaf Tekna 24kWh EV (exactly same as my car when I bought it) sold to a specialist EV trader for £10k+ last week on SpeakEV. The demand for EV, especially used, is increasing, supply isn't increasing.

Of course, new EV's are not as attractive. Because it is currently hard to get big discount on a product so high in demand. Kona's wait time is 42 weeks at the moment.

 

[Byker28i]

Nissan Leafs can do V2G ie vehicle to grid. There's a couple of energy companies trialling it.

Grid storage should have been done years ago.

We might need fossil fuels but unless someone comes up with an alternative they'll all be gone so you either stop using them or find alternatives. Peak oil has been hit regularly since oil was found and at some point it will be the actual peak oil and there will actually be none left. I think you'll end up with some kind of liquified gas as an alternative for large machinery. Or the the very inefficient hydrogen. It won't be oil and fossil based gas as there won't be any left.

V2G only works if you have a good charge rate for the car or don't need to use it? Is it one of those compromises? A charge rate of 12 miles per hour currently, so you offset your expected mileage range? Perhaps different if you have a rapid charger so the battery can discharge at peak demand and recharge again?

 

[Byker28i]

I think that's the perception, but the reality is different. For instance, consider the fact that millions of cars are used simply to commute to work. The average UK commute is ten miles, and the old Nissan Leaf has about 90 miles of 'real world' range, so you wouldn't even have to bother plugging it in most nights. Yes, it's nice to be able to jump in a car and just drive for 400 miles, but how often is the average car used like that? And how safe is that anyway? You should probably be taking a break after 90 minutes of driving, so that would be an ideal time to charge up while you stretch your legs and grab a drink. Most very long journeys are made on motorways anyway, which have loads of charging stations.

If you live in the South of England and are heading off on holiday to the Scottish highlands, then travel by other means an hire a car when you get there. It's dirt cheap to hire basic used cars these days. The savings made in fuel will pay for several weeks of car hire per year. And I think I'm right in saying that some manufacturers (VW?) offers access to conventional vehicles for their EV owners.

If owning an EV is such a drama and inconvenience, why do so few EV owners go back to a combustion engine?

Wheres the 10 mile commute? Average commute in my company is probably nearer 20 miles each direction - average. Thats what happens when you work in a 'rural' i.e. not in a city, location.
My commutes 30 miles each way...

As said many times, EV cars work for some travel stories but not the majority - yet

 

[srichards]

V2G only works if you have a good charge rate for the car or don't need to use it? Is it one of those compromises? A charge rate of 12 miles per hour currently, so you offset your expected mileage range? Perhaps different if you have a rapid charger so the battery can discharge at peak demand and recharge again?

The new leafs have 7kw chargers so they charge at least 20 miles per hour if not nearer 30. 4 miles per kWh is a rough average for many EVs.

Average daily mileage is still only about 20 odd miles. There's plenty of people that don't cover that at all. It's one hour at 7kw.

 

[nilagin]

If you live in the South of England and are heading off on holiday to the Scottish highlands, then travel by other means an hire a car when you get there. It's dirt cheap to hire basic used cars these days. The savings made in fuel will pay for several weeks of car hire per year. And I think I'm right in saying that some manufacturers (VW?) offers access to conventional vehicles for their EV owners.

If owning an EV is such a drama and inconvenience, why do so few EV owners go back to a combustion engine?

If you are travelling to Scotland on your own it may workout cheaper, but if you are going with a partner or family, going by car will be the cheaper option.
My son and his girlfriend drove from Essex to Scotland back in the summer. He didn't even use 2 tanks of fuel for the commute each way nor driving about during their weeks stay and that was in a petrol car.

 

[wyx087]

V2G only works if you have a good charge rate for the car or don't need to use it? Is it one of those compromises? A charge rate of 12 miles per hour currently, so you offset your expected mileage range? Perhaps different if you have a rapid charger so the battery can discharge at peak demand and recharge again?

Current problem with V2G is that they use the DC Chademo port. The onboard AC inverter in EV's are not V2G compatible. You will need to install a stationary grid supply certified AC inverter with Chademo connector.

There are no real limit on rate of charge/discharge on the car. You could drain the battery at 50kW and charge it up at 50kW if you have bought a 50kW inverter. But the grid certification means you are probably limited to 3.5kW without extensive paperwork process.

This is mature tech with the companies managing the grid lagging behind with the processes to connect home batteries. There is also a complete lack of standard for smart battery load balancing. So it is highly likely the inverter you buy today will not be compatible with future "smart" connections. Heck, even some smart meters being installed today will be out of date next year.

So although technology readiness level is high, in terms of mass adoption, many years to go unfortunately!

 

[neil_g]

Nissan Leafs can do V2G ie vehicle to grid. There's a couple of energy companies trialling it.

Grid storage should have been done years ago.

We might need fossil fuels but unless someone comes up with an alternative they'll all be gone so you either stop using them or find alternatives. Peak oil has been hit regularly since oil was found and at some point it will be the actual peak oil and there will actually be none left. I think you'll end up with some kind of liquified gas as an alternative for large machinery. Or the the very inefficient hydrogen. It won't be oil and fossil based gas as there won't be any left.

Or, you know, most of us will wait a few more years (possibly until current leases runs out) and see whether eV has matured and improved. Jumping on eV right now as I've said does not suit everyone as needs aren't being met.

 

[Byker28i]

The new leafs have 7kw chargers so they charge at least 20 miles per hour if not nearer 30. 4 miles per kWh is a rough average for many EVs.

Average daily mileage is still only about 20 odd miles. There's plenty of people that don't cover that at all. It's one hour at 7kw.

Again, works for those that fit the EV story, short mileage journeys, charging point availability...

 

[Byker28i]

Current problem with V2G is that they use the DC Chademo port. The onboard AC inverter in EV's are not V2G compatible. You will need to install a stationary grid supply certified AC inverter with Chademo connector.

There are no real limit on rate of charge/discharge on the car. You could drain the battery at 50kW and charge it up at 50kW if you have bought a 50kW inverter. But the grid certification means you are probably limited to 3.5kW without extensive paperwork process.

This is mature tech with the companies managing the grid lagging behind with the processes to connect home batteries. There is also a complete lack of standard for smart battery load balancing. So it is highly likely the inverter you buy today will not be compatible with future "smart" connections. Heck, even some smart meters being installed today will be out of date next year.

So although technology readiness level is high, in terms of mass adoption, many years to go unfortunately!

There's some interesting tech ideas, but it's financing those. It's a bit chicken and egg in that until EV's start dominating the market there won't be investment in the infrastructure, be it public charging points, supplying power to all households. Without investment in the infrastructure, additional range etc, the Ev isn't attractive to the main stream. The advantages of fossil fuels still outweigh it.

I strongly suspect things will swing, but in the meantime, to actually improve the environment, rather than adopt a simple 'diesel is death' attitude, we need a complete approach across the spectrum of all pollutant sources.
Again that needs investment and i can't see where that comes from currently.

 

[nilagin]

Or, you know, most of us will wait a few more years (possibly until current leases runs out) and see whether eV has matured and improved. Jumping on eV right now as I've said does not suit everyone as needs aren't being met.

I reckon my next car will likely be a hybrid.
I will be keeping the current car, but rumours are, if the next Focus RS does happen it will be a 400bhp hybrid. My fingers and toes are crossed in anticipation.

 

[woof woof]

I think that's the perception, but the reality is different. For instance, consider the fact that millions of cars are used simply to commute to work. The average UK commute is ten miles, and the old Nissan Leaf has about 90 miles of 'real world' range, so you wouldn't even have to bother plugging it in most nights. Yes, it's nice to be able to jump in a car and just drive for 400 miles, but how often is the average car used like that? And how safe is that anyway? You should probably be taking a break after 90 minutes of driving, so that would be an ideal time to charge up while you stretch your legs and grab a drink. Most very long journeys are made on motorways anyway, which have loads of charging stations.

If you live in the South of England and are heading off on holiday to the Scottish highlands, then travel by other means an hire a car when you get there. It's dirt cheap to hire basic used cars these days. The savings made in fuel will pay for several weeks of car hire per year. And I think I'm right in saying that some manufacturers (VW?) offers access to conventional vehicles for their EV owners.

If owning an EV is such a drama and inconvenience, why do so few EV owners go back to a combustion engine?

I live on the outskirts of Middlesbrough. Middlesbrough is a large town but for some things I have to go to York or Newcastle and then there's social use and there's no way on Earth that 90 miles range is anywhere near enough and relying on public transport is a joke and a bad one at that. How do I get to and from the bus stop? Shopping bags from the supermarket and public transport? How Do I manage with a push chair or someone in a wheelchair and shopping too? Forget M'bro and go to Yorkshire or parts of Durham and it's even worse.

EV make about as much sense to many as bicycles or even public transport. They're all options that would severely limit my life, make it much more difficult and expensive and render many with mobility issues and other special needs isolated and housebound.

I'm all for the environment but IMVHO EV's are at the moment the wrong choice as the technology and infrastructure away from London and a few other big cities just isn't there. Another issue is time. EV's and public transport and other non fossil fuel options may be fine if you don't have to be anywhere but many people have to be there and back at specific times and would face real hardship if limited by these non or half working options. IMO some sort of self powered hybrid is the answer but the world has decided that EV's are it but IMO EV's are way off in the distant future for many people away from the major population centres where lets be honest you don't need a car if you're active and mobile which is probably what most people making these decisions are.

 

[viv1969]

I think that's the perception, but the reality is different. For instance, consider the fact that millions of cars are used simply to commute to work. The average UK commute is ten miles, and the old Nissan Leaf has about 90 miles of 'real world' range, so you wouldn't even have to bother plugging it in most nights. Yes, it's nice to be able to jump in a car and just drive for 400 miles, but how often is the average car used like that? And how safe is that anyway? You should probably be taking a break after 90 minutes of driving, so that would be an ideal time to charge up while you stretch your legs and grab a drink. Most very long journeys are made on motorways anyway, which have loads of charging stations.

If you live in the South of England and are heading off on holiday to the Scottish highlands, then travel by other means an hire a car when you get there. It's dirt cheap to hire basic used cars these days. The savings made in fuel will pay for several weeks of car hire per year. And I think I'm right in saying that some manufacturers (VW?) offers access to conventional vehicles for their EV owners.

If owning an EV is such a drama and inconvenience, why do so few EV owners go back to a combustion engine?

Savings on petrol?
Have you seemtge price of rail travel from kentto scotland?