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A banana? who'd have thought it?You know what type of vehicle has zero gap in acceleration?
Probably doesn't understand, toe & heel, Double de-clutch or opposite lock, all great fun Eh?
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Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel
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Hardly the proper way to drive on the public highway though...
Until the alternative is pretty close, at which point one may well be begging for it to come quickly (while the medical trade seem desperate to prolong your agony but keep you so drugged up that you can't complain about the agony...)
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I could take a nice leisurely gear change each time and you would still be a dot in my rear view mirror.You know what type of vehicle has zero gap in acceleration?
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Fitting I suppose, slippery little buggers.
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Why not? you get into a slide, what do you do, just sit there like a t***t and wait for the bang? or stick a bit of opposite lock on to correct it?
Toe & heel great for making progress around country lanes, not everyone is only capable of making progress when they are driving in a straight line ...
double de-clutch, not so much these days, with this syncro stuff but then again, it does negate the need for the clutch totally,
Assuming you are capable of "hitting it right"
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Nothing to prove just chewing the fat with a fellow driver that appreciates the art of driving, rather than just sitting behind the wheel
ancient_mariner
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"We" were talking about / comparing to, EV's not auto ICE's
My previous gas guzzler was auto, and yes you can have fun when using it "tiptronically"
The auto option was there for those long boring M-way treks.
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I didn't assume anything, they have already admitted they take no pleasure from driving.
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Why not? you get into a slide, what do you do, just sit there like a t***t and wait for the bang? or stick a bit of opposite lock on to correct it?
Toe & heel great for making progress around country lanes, not everyone is only capable of making progress when they are driving in a straight line ...
double de-clutch, not so much these days, with this syncro stuff but then again, it does negate the need for the clutch totally,
Assuming you are capable of "hitting it right"
I do my best to avoid getting into a slide. If sh!t happens, I can deal with it with a "dab of oppo". Making progress around country lanes is a good way to up your insurance premiums - even protection runs out after a few prangs... Keep finding myself double de-clutching in the MX5, must be a hangover from memories of the Frogeye where DD was a must between 1st and second (as it was in the S IIa Landy).
Having followed this from the beginning I know what you meanKnowing the background to a conversation is everything.
Not looking back through this lot but don’t remember that. My only experience with electric was having an i3 a few times when mine was in for a service.... must admit like s*** off a shovel up to about 45/50 but just seems super weird doing it in silence.
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Probably the sensation of the instant torque. But googling the acceleration times, still not that quick. 0-30 is just under 3 seconds where as my car will do the same in 1.9 seconds. 0-60 is around 7 secs for the i3, yet mine achieves it in 4.7 seconds. In terms of cost the base i3 is around £2k more than my car with no extras. The top model i3 is over £4k more than my fully loaded car. At around £55 a tank of Shell V-power, that is an awful lot of petrol (more than 2 years fuel) I can buy for the same outlay. Looking at 2nd hand prices of i3's, they are around £4-5k less to buy than the trade in value of my car. That would suggest a trade in value of around £6-7k less than I can get for my car. That is even more tanks of fuel I can buy in the future and I still haven't spent or lost as much in depreciation even though the i3 can be recharged for free.
ianp5a
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The BMW i3 is in our city fleet. And costs the same to use as other cars. But in the busy city, there are not many places where a lot of acceleration makes sense, if you want to be safe.
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Glad I don't live or work in a city.
wyx087
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Great, you go ahead. I'll be happily driving at legal speed limits.I could take a nice leisurely gear change each time and you would still be a dot in my rear view mirror.
At stop lights, my lowly 110bhp Leaf will be a car length ahead of your 200bph car while you are leisurely shifting into 2nd gear.
It's not all about the acceleration numbers. If that's the case, then why don't you compare Tesla S against any other similarly sized 7 seat ICE cars? The P100D can sit 5 adults + 2 children and still have supercar-beating drag times. For everyday driving, it's about the feel of the car. As mentioned, an EV will always feel quicker to change speed due to instant and gapless acceleration.
Seriously, go try a performance EV (like i3S, any Tesla's). You may actually like the instant torque and low centre of gravity.
Here's a good read of the Tesla Model 3 performance track-mode: https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/road-tests/a22625274/tesla-model-3-performance-track-test/
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200bhp? Try 345bhp.
There appears to be something wrong with your maths and your perception of how quick your 110bhp Leaf is.
Compare 0-30 acceleration times
Leaf 3.4secs
Focus RS 1.6secs (max speed in 1st gear 38mph)
Somehow I don't think it will be your leaf that will be a car length in front whilst I leisurely change gear.
Your still comparing cars that cost a great deal more than mine to buy in the first place and with the rate at which they depreciate compared to mine, it is going to take quite a few years before an EV would even be remotely cosy effective.
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That car starts at $78k, no idea how much that would translate to in pounds but it will be over £80k. An entry level Model 3 is closer to the price of my car but still more expensive. I could change my suspension for a fully active set up and still not have spent as much as the cost of an entry level and slower Model 3. I could have the engine rebuilt with forged internals and the power increased, add a sequential gearbox for faster gear changes, replace bonnet, front wings, and tailgate with carbon fibre items to reduce weight and lower the centre of gravity even further and I still won't need to have spent anywhere as much as the cost of the Model 3 Performance.
wyx087
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Yay for you?
I don't get why you keep comparing everything to your car. Apples to oranges. Model 3 performance is more comparable to BMW M3 in size and comfort.
How much is a M3?
Does M3 have Autopilot? Does it have auto updating firmware?
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Aren't you comparing everything to your car.
So the Model 3 Performance is aimed to compare with the BMW M3 yet it looks like a UK Model 3 is going to cost £24k more. Not exactly a good comparison.
Does any car require Autopilot? Yet again something cars don't need and leads to laziness.
wyx087
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Which car would be a good keyboard-worrier comparison then?
Autonomous cars saves lives. A high percentage of accidents are due to human errors. I feel much much MUCH safer when driving my Skoda with ACC and AEB compared to my Leaf (first gen has no such sensors) simply due to having the added sensor to look after me. If there could be 360 sensors/cameras watching all the time, the driver only have to supervise the car, it would be much safer than any emotional, easily distracted, excitable meatbag behind the wheel.
This goes back to auto vs manual thing. If a machine does things better, then why even allow human to do it? Sure, the transitional period will be messy with many insisting they can do better, but once we move on from that (eg. some BMW, Porsche not offering manual) it's easy to get used to the new norm. Assistive driving technology will only get better, so why buy a car now and get stuck with old tech? (eg. the M3 you buy now will be out of date before you take delivery) Auto firmware update of Tesla is well worth most of the price difference because it allows you to keep the car for much longer.
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The only reason Tesla have auto firmware update is so the car is up to date when you finally get to take delivery. They are still struggling with production. Car manufacturers on average put around 20% of their cars back into the factory to rectify production errors, recently Tesla have been having to do the same but with 86% of the Model 3's they have been producing which is way behind on it's production already.
I assume ACC is adaptive cruise control, yes it makes sure you retain a safe distance to the car in front, but it is still a function that makes you lazy and complacent. You become less likely to the job in hand. My car has active city stop, I certainly have no intention of waiting for it to activate or even find out off it works. Many automated features are ok if you are disabled, but on the whole the rest is just laziness.
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I love "exceptions that prove rules"
Tesla has said a car that crashed in California last week, killing its driver, was operating on Autopilot.
The company (Tesla) said its Autopilot feature can keep speed, change lanes and self-park but requires drivers to keep their eyes on the road and hands on the wheel, in order to be able to take control and avoid accidents.
Then there was the one that failed to spot an artic trailer, because it was white, killing the driver.
So there you have it. The car can't do without the man taking control when it gets itself in trouble
Google and others are testing their auto cars right here.
The first one ever hit a bollard, as did a few of its mates over time.
There has been no mention of these "Google cars" for sometime.
We now have Other driver less cars ( UK Auto drive) are testing their "Pods" on the Pavements of speeds up to 15 MPH!
"We" pedestrians have to dodge Cyclists, motorised wheel chairs and now cars!
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Really? You have that as a fact? I seem to recall a few accidents involving autonomous cars, including deaths (to pedestrians) and given how few of these cars are currently on any roads I dont think their supposed "safety" is anything to brag about. The software has not been fully developed or tested to sufficient depth to categorically state any claims.
The trouble is all this EV being better, cleaner, safer, etc is all conjecture, no-one knows for sure, there's precious little history or anecdotal evidence yet.
When there are millions of these things running around managing to recharge in 15 minutes with plenty of electricity and points available and out accelerate conventional cars, out top speed and range and show lower depreciation you may be able to brag at how much better, safer etc these things are but until then your argument is flawed and you're just guessing and hoping what you say comes to fruition.
So until that happens in the words of the Dragons you are an early adopter not yet ready for my investment and on that note I'm out (of buying if not discussing)
wyx087
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The only meaningful way to look at the 2 Tesla fatalities is to compare against human drivers. What is the percentage of car fatalities due to human error?I love "exceptions that prove rules"
Tesla has said a car that crashed in California last week, killing its driver, was operating on Autopilot.
The company (Tesla) said its Autopilot feature can keep speed, change lanes and self-park but requires drivers to keep their eyes on the road and hands on the wheel, in order to be able to take control and avoid accidents.
Then there was the one that failed to spot an artic trailer, because it was white, killing the driver.
So there you have it. The car can't do without the man taking control when it gets itself in trouble
Google and others are testing their auto cars right here.
The first one ever hit a bollard, as did a few of its mates over time.
There has been no mention of these "Google cars" for sometime.
We now have Other driver less cars ( UK Auto drive) are testing their "Pods" on the Pavements of speeds up to 15 MPH!
"We" pedestrians have to dodge Cyclists, motorised wheel chairs and now cars!
In both tragedies, human error is to blame. The driver of the California Model X crash (not last week) had previously noted the car not identifying the divider. The divider also had no safety buffer. The articulating trailer crash also had diver not paying attention.
As I said, the transition is messy. People misunderstand their roles in the driver assist cars, relying too much than it is designed for.
But it's always better to have additional eye/sensors. This is why AEB is becoming as mandatory as seatbelts soon.
https://www.wired.com/story/self-driving-cars-rand-report/
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...FRwdA&guce_referrer_cs=JIC5Ojxuct8f_FlBqb_NHw
I agree the software is currently playing catch-up. This is a complex problem that requires more than simple hardware installation. This is where auto-updating Tesla comes into play.
Other brands are painfully slowly catching up with OTA update capabilities, Chevy Bolt has infotainment system over-the-air update.
I also agree EV is currently early adopter territory. No arguing there. The pollution aspect is well discussed previously in this thread: whole life emission of EV will always be less than ICE cars. All car buyers should have a long and hard think about what powers their next car, petrol should not be the default choice when you only drive short journeys.
MatBin
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Agreed, and I really did try to persuade my wife we should get an EV this time. However,
1) Not enough range
2) Too expensive
3) Ugly as hell
4) It may be our only car in 2 years time
5) Outdated in a short time
I argued against (1) as she only does short trips
I couldnt argue against (2) for a new/nearly new car
I couldnt argue against (3) unless I ignored 1 & 2
I couldnt buy a short trip only car now in case (4) happens
Who knows about (5)
In short - it isnt happening for me or her (yet) but I really wish I could get an EV that satisfied my needs now and for the next 4/5 years but we are not there (yet, if ever).
So, the next car (within weeks) will be a small petrol car to go with my smelly diesl Focus and supplement my tyre shredding motorcycle
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neil_g
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Ouch. Even my 13 year old diesel is way less than that.
Pot and kettle at bit. But yes this has gone a bit astray.
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Old leaf is a boring slow blancmange of a car. Never seen one in the outside lane of a motorway. They're always doing 55 up the chuff of a truck. Not something I aspire too.
Newer EVs are going to be a lot better. BMW are bringing out an all electric 3 series. Kia have the 64kwh Niro and Soul. Latter is supposed to be coming with AWD too. Kia also have a 7 year warranty so there is little to worry about.
Jaguar are building an all electric E-Type using the IPace drive train.
Newer EVs are going to be a lot better. BMW are bringing out an all electric 3 series. Kia have the 64kwh Niro and Soul. Latter is supposed to be coming with AWD too. Kia also have a 7 year warranty so there is little to worry about.
Jaguar are building an all electric E-Type using the IPace drive train.
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Have built (EVType). Harry Wales drove one after his wedding. The conversion is allegedly going to be available as a retrofit to any car that uses an XK engine.
On the few occasions the Leaf has been on the motorway, it's been happy enough to get out into lane 3 (and be keeping up with the other vehicles there!). I'll agree that it's not really its normal habitat but when it finds itself there, it copes just fine.
The £205 figure came from a quick google for Focus RS road tax.
On the few occasions the Leaf has been on the motorway, it's been happy enough to get out into lane 3 (and be keeping up with the other vehicles there!). I'll agree that it's not really its normal habitat but when it finds itself there, it copes just fine.
The £205 figure came from a quick google for Focus RS road tax.
MatBin
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How so? It wasn't me that brought up the subject of Ev's "amazing performance". All I have done on the basis of financial outlay disprove the fact.
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